Nero04: Skipping some levels? It's training day

[CommandoBob]

I like the fact that we are playing from two different continents.

I am in time zone GMT -5, known locally as Central Daylight Time. At the end of October we fall back an hour, which I guess would be GMT -6, Central Standard Time.

I am also a native born Texan. As I have re-read what I have written tonight I see I used a lot of local expressions and catch-phrases in my writing. I will try to keep that to a minimum, or at least explain what it means. If my meaning is unclear, please ask me what I meant to say.

But could I ask what time zone everyone is in?

 

[eldar]

lurker's comment: If I (as a mere lurker) may offer some insights into the start...

Spoiler Random thoughts :

1. Consider moving the settler south and planting there. You need just one bonus grassland to make this a viable 4-turn factory, and there's a grassland to the SE. If it's not a bonus, you lose nothing. If it is, you gain.

2. Build order. The problem with this start is the lack of shields. Your first warrior - who should go off exploring - will take 7 turns to build (why 7 turns...?), assuming the floodplain is being worked. You'll already be at size 2, meaning the luxury slider will be needed. Your second build should be a settler - it reduces population, and also gets you a second city quickly.

3. Granary. Not enough shields - and with the FP wheat, you're growing fast enough anyway, for the time being.

4. Research. Spain are Religious (Ceremonial Burial) and Commercial (Alphabet) in PTW. Traditionally, this means a run on Writing (some say minimum; some say maximum; I go with maximum, especially as you have all those rivers). I don't see any reason why this game shouldn't differ.

 

[BeefBayford]

Well from nero and eldar's comments we should set sci to 100% until the city grows to size 2, then at that point roll it back to 80 and set lux to 20.

I am in GMT+1 (Daylight Saving Time) which at some point this month will return to GMT. As I'm sending this post it is 8:40am local time.

I always thought that irrigating a tile which is already producing 2 or more food would not increase by 1 with irrigation under Despotism? Or am I mistaken?

Eldar's build queue sounds good, a quick settler is important at this level. Heading for Writing is also the best way to go.

 

[nerovats]

I never said I want science at 100%. Techs are more expensive on higher levels, going on max will probably just take a couple of turns off. We might at least consider doing writing on min then philo on max and save gold to rush/upgrade/buy stuff.

Despotism subtracts 1 food, it does not set it to a max of 2. For instance a non improved FP would give 3 food, but now give 2 in desp, irrigating would yield 4 food in republic, 3 in despo. Reminds me, what gov will we choose?

As every one wil probably open Eldars spoiler anyway, we can also use the worker to see if it´s a BG. Move it on the mountain, then to FP+W. Wasted workers turns are cheaper then settler turn.

I´m at GMT+1 too.

 

[BeefBayford]

By doing Writing on min do u mean set it so it will take 50 turns?

 

[nerovats]

Yes, just at 10% (probably need 20% until 2nd civillean). Later on it would be asingle scientist (switch 1 and only 1 civillean into a scientist). I expect it will take 45 turns on max (speculation for now, can make better gues in 4 hours). So min research will yield at least 200 gold for a 5 turn delay.

Just to make sure, I will say this one more time, there is no 1 best move. In some cases 200 gold will be more important on other occasions the 5 turns are more important. When the AI will learn writing on turn 48, we could sell it maybe for more then 200 gold. But maybe we haven´t met the AI, or they don´t have anything to give us for it.

 

[eldar]

lurker's comment: PTW/Vanilla - 40 turns is the max.

The whole max/min argument is that, even at max, you're putting in more gold than at min, even if it's still 40 (50 in C3C) turn research. So the time will come down quicker if you do max research over min.

Min is great if you need the gold for something else - upgrades, paying off the AI, buying other techs, etc.

 

[BeefBayford]

I've already learnt a hell of a lot and I haven't even played a turn yet! Keep the tips coming all!

 

[nerovats]

I estimate we´ll collect 400 beakers when researching at max in 40 (turns) depends on a lot of things ofcourse). CivAssist will can tell how many beakers writing will cost, will check that but expect it´ll be about the same. In the end we´ll be over 20 beakers a turn so even when it´s 300 beakers it´ll stil take 35 turns. If it is 400 we get about 360 gold for free. That´s a lot of gold to upgrade or pay unit suppport for a long time.

 

[Hawk Chieftain]

I played at least 20 turns last night on the save that was given to us. I think that the original spot where the settler is located, is better than moving to the West. I put my worker on the Wheat, roaded it then irrigated. Next, I roaded the Flood Plain & irrigated it. I built Warrior/Warrior/Settler. I kept the Science slider on whatever the default was set at. I only lasted 39 minutes before I lost. For not really knowing what I was doing, I'm surprised I lasted that long.

 

[nerovats]

Hawk that could be considerd a spoiler. We can all play 20 turns on our own but should not speak about what happend until we all finish. Keeping science at 50% at the start is never a good idea. I suggest the rest of the team also plays 20 turns, and port a ready, then compare.

 

[nerovats]

I don't know how much Hawk learned about the map, but we might even want to get another as we should not know in advance to know where resources/enemy/bonusses are, to make it fare.

It checked the cost of writing: 240 beakers. When collecting 400 tops, we'll need to subtract some for the lux slider, which will probably means we still need 35 turns to get there.

 

[BeefBayford]

Just finished playing 17 turns and just built a settler. Wasn't sure where to build the city so I saved it where it is.

Here's the save,
View attachment 100461

Shall I send you a turn by turn report by PM nero?

 

[CommandoBob]

@Hawk Chieftian: Sorry to hear about your loss. I do not mind losing, but I hate to get beaten. And it sounds like you got beaten. Don't give up. Learn from what happened. And don't make the same mistakes again.

@nerovats: I would like for everyone to play their twenty turns and then we decide what to do. All I know from Hawk Chieftain is that he lost. He did not say how. Maybe the rest of us can avoid his fate. If we cannot get one good start from all our efforts, then we could restart.

nerovats said:

Most of your first post seems ok. Alltough the AI will start with warriors, no archers.

Second post needs some more discussion...

The first post nerovats is referring to is Post #37 'Initial Opening Analysis'. The second is Post #38 'Worker Order and Build Order'.

Well, what should be discussed from that post?

 

[nerovats]

Turnlogs can be posted here, I asume the rest is playing has played or should start playing when reading this, so then do not read any further and play I you haven't already.

@CommandoBob, I didn't agree with your build order npr worker actions. In this case it's better to irigate first as it'll take 1 turn off of growth from 2 to 3. Growth is very important, more then the road. If it haddend mattered then the road should have been build first.
Second the first warrior should be scouting, do we have any lux/resources, where to settle next, meet ai. Then probably another warrior, also scouting or worker or settler. Depends also on what we find. I haven't played 20 yet, to tired now. We do tomorrow.

 

[BeefBayford]

There is Ivory to the north of us which is good.
Here is my Turnlog:
1. Found Madrid on Hill -> Warrior. Sci to 20%, +3gpt. Researching Writing.
2. Irrigate FP
3-5. Nothin
6. Lux to 30%, Road on FP
7. Nothin
8. Warrior Complete -> Settler
9-10 Warrior Exploring
11. Mine 1W of Madrid
12-14. Zzzz
15. Road on 1W
16. Zzzz
17. Settler finished -> Another Settler, Saved and Exit.

Was tempted to send my Settler up and build on the Elephant on the right.

 

[CommandoBob]

@CommandoBob, I didn't agree with your build order npr worker actions. In this case it's better to irigate first as it'll take 1 turn off of growth from 2 to 3. Growth is very important, more then the road. If it haddend mattered then the road should have been build first.
Second the first warrior should be scouting, do we have any lux/resources, where to settle next, meet ai. Then probably another warrior, also scouting or worker or settler. Depends also on what we find.

I was not sure about my build order either. I did not spend a lot of time thinking about it. I thought some, and then posted what I thought.
Now, knowing that the AI gets Warriors and not Archers, I would be more likely to explore. In that post I was very afraid that I would not have a defender in the capital city and it would be captured by the AI.

On the worker, Growth (irrigation) beats Speed (roads). Good rule of thumb (that is, a good general principle). Is this true to entire game or just these first early turns?
I have the habit of buiding roads before improvements for only one reason: I make mistakes. I will always build the improvement. But if I build the improvement first, I sometimes forget to build the road until after I move off of it. And that wastes turns for no reason.

I have not had a chance to think about what science to learn. I have not even checked to see what sciences we start with!

 

[nerovats]

Later in the game when you have several workers it's most efficient to have single workers road ahead, then move in a stack which will complete the irrigation or mine in one turn. This way you reduce theturns lost by moving.

 

[CommandoBob]

Some other things to consider before making a move. As before, these are in no particular order.

1. Spain is Religious. Being Religious, Temples and Cathedrals are cheaper and we only spend one turn in Anarchy when changing governments. Cheap culture is always nice, especially at Emperor when we have start with only one content citizen per city. We will need to build Temples. The Anarchy bonus sounds better than it is, mostly because it so rarely used. Most games I have played and others I have lurked at, have started in Despotism, become a Republic and stay a Republic. Switching governments does not happen very often, mostly because of the turns of Anarchy. We have a hidden bonus because we can switch governments as we need to. If War Weariness is getting to be a problem, we can become a Communist government, knowing our economy will be shut down for only one turn.
2. Spain is Commercial. We get an extra commerce from the city center tile in each city. This means that Madrid will produce 2fpt and 2gpt. We can build a little bit faster.
3. Our Unique Unit, the Conquistador, is a 3/2/2 that replaces the Explorer. It does not need saltpeter to be produced. Best of all, it treats all terrain as road. If I understand this correctly, it can move six tiles in one turn?
4. We are on a standard map that has two large landmasses. If we are on one of these, and not an island, we can expect two or three other civs will be trying to share our continent with us.
5. We start already knowing what our letters are (Alphabet) and how to have a really fun funeral (Ceremonial Burial).

 

[CommandoBob]

Earlier I stated that I would sent our worker to the Flood Plain with Wheat and begin to improve that tile first. But I was not sure what tile to improve second.
I now have the beginnings of an answer for which tile to improve second.

Below is a map of our starting position, no moves taken.

Below is the same map, but now with Crackers Power Chart applied. The chart is
here and the excellent article begins here.

According to Cracker’s work, our most powerful tiles are the three flood plains. When irrigated and roaded, the flood plain + Wheat will bring 5 fpt and 2 gpt, in Despotism. The other two flood plains will bring in 3 fpt and 2 gpt. It will take our worker 24 turns to get these tiles to this production, eight turns per tile. One turn to move onto the tile, four to irrigate and three to road.

On the map, the numbers are the values from the field 'Improved Despot Power' for the terrain type. The 'i' indicates that way to improve the tile is to irrigate it.

Below is the same basic starting map, but with Worker moves (in blue) and Warrior moves (in red).

The worker moves are pretty obvious to me. Let me explain the suggested warrior moves.

Once we get a warrior he does need to explore, he just cannot go very far if he also has to protect the capital. We need to push back the black for two reasons. First, of course, is so we know our terrain and maybe find a luxury or two. Second, we want to see if the AI is coming our way, so we can send our warrior to meet the AI and not tempt it with an undefended city. My first four warrior moves are planned to stay close to home and to make use of the line of sight from a mountain top. All my moves are in mountains.

I just cannot see beyond that fourth turn of exploration. We will just have to wait and see.