Lots to get into! Yeah!
You mean like the right's "cheap trick" of claiming that all Palestinians are suicide bombers?
Oh yeah, I hear that every day... Talk about gross gross gross generalizations?! Can't believe I even responded to this statement.
I think the settlement issue would be much easier to settle (no pun intended) if the settlers were given dual Israeli-Palestinian citizenship and residential permits allowing them to stay in exchange for compensation of Palestinians, allowing immigration of Palestinian refugees, and removing military installations in the West Bank.
If that happened, there would be no Israel... there are far more "Palestinians"... Read, Arabs. If they were granted the right to return, which would include voting rights, they would have the majority... and it would turn into Lebanon, and we might even get another Holocaust.
Can the poor, downtrodden Jews just have this one little sliver of land? I've been there, it's tiny... before they took over, it was desolate.
Wasn't it Ben-Gurion, a socialist, that attacked Egypt? Wasn't it Eshkol, a socialist, that launched a surprise attack on Egypt, Syria, and Jordan that resulted in the occupations of Gaza, the West Bank, and the Sinai? Wasn't it Meir, a socialist, that ordered the Mossad to assassinate those PLO guys after the Munich attacks? And wasn't it Begin, a Likud member, who signed the peace treaty with Egypt and withdrew from the Sinai? And yet you constantly bark about Israel's right parties. I think we all know who the real reactionary here is.
The problem is, you were responding to someone who has NO idea about the actual political history of Israel, nor the current situation of Israel, and is looking at the situation from an Ivory Tower that is thousands of miles away.
I would suggest a visit to Israel for those who are really interested.
Furthermore, he claims to understand the desire of the people... yet hasn't really been there, talked to them, etc. They want to live in peace. They are mainly "left" wing, whatever that really means... they want to have a social security safety net, etc, for their people... believe in personal freedom, etc... They just have been forced to become like porcupines after constantly being attacked...
Anyone here who was beat up every day would probably end up taking karate lessons or something to eventually defend themselves. Let's not forget, these people were subjected to the Holocaust... and may be a bit scarred by that!
But, no sympathy from the hard left... They would rather support hard "right" muslim fundamentalists who would just as soon blow up the hard left.
Isn't it so convenient that a religion you're not a part of is designed to be evil?
Do you need quotes?
I am only a part of one religion. There is only one that I condemn (the religion, not the followers necessarily)...
That leaves many many many religions that are not "designed to be evil".
Why is it wrong for there to be muslim theocracies but jewish ones get the slack?
Hadn't most decent people realized secular states are kinda cool?
Because Muslim Theocracies use Sharia law, which is completely oppressive to women, archaic, and brutal.
IF Israel went back to OT rules to run their laws, there would certainly be an outcry! However, that won't happen, because the people there realize how crazy that would be.
So what's the solution then? Kill all the Palestinians? Why don't they try to actually meet some of the demands, the requirements of the Palestinian people? You know, maybe do something to make them not hate Israel so much, since they've done plenty in the opposite direction already. Reconciliation happens where both trust and respect occur, and Israel shows neither to the Palestinians.
Really? Total snarkiness is so wonderful.
You don't know that the Israelis have repeatedly tried to meet their demands? They offered the entire Gaza and the West Bank, including uprooting settlers... the only thing they wouldn't budge on was dividing Jerusalem.
So long as the Palestinian leadership refuses to accept Israel, there will be no peace.
So long as the Israeli leadership refuses to share the land with Palestine, there will be no peace.
Not too difficult to understand. There cannot be peace until one side wipes the other out, or both adopt moderate policies.
People naturally take advantage of eachother when one is much weaker. While both sides have an equal responsibility, it is Israel at the end of the day who will decide how things are, for they are the strongest.
It would be desirable for both to just hug, stop obsessing over the past, and plan a united future, but alas, that's not gonna happen.
Nor do we have that one-man army of fiction who can destroy both armies and forcefully unite them.
Note, the hard pill to swallow here...
Until one accepts giving up LAND, which is tangible, in exchange for peace... which is easily retracted.
How can the pre-1967 borders be indefensible when Israel, you know, defended them?
They defended them by going on the offensive first... that's not really defending the land in question.
As long that the Hamas is allowed to be on the negotiating table with Israel and the Fatah.... eh, scratch that. As long as the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) get Israel to accept now that Fatah no longer support "violence and terrorism," then both side can indeed reach a happy compromise of land swaps.
Great point... Hamas STILL has in its charter the destruction of Israel. How can you negotionate with that???
Sure, but there is fighting and I don't think Hamas is exactly the most peace-loving of organisations.
Either way, Hamas is blown out of proportion or some such, Israelis buy it, elect far less compromising leaders, and bam, things get worse. Democracy at work!
Hamas is blown out of proportion?!
They are a terrorist organization that targets, purposely, innocents.
No, but you are calling for the Israeli electorate to put those same people back in power.
So you're going to take swipes at the peace treaty because of Egypt's close relationship with the U.S. ...even at a time when Egypt and the U.S. didn't really have one?
I'm not the one leaping to the defense of the Muslim fundamentalist reactionaries that run the PA. The company you keep...
Very well said, and historically accurate. At the time, Egypt was a closer ally to Russia than the USA.
It seems, from the wikipedia page on their election history, that they have an election every three years.. I have a great fear that Israel will try and follow the South Africa route. When South Africa faced the slow but inevitably greater pressure to end its apartheid, it slowed itself off and became even more radical. Like Israel, it was able to fend off any external threats, but it inevitably succumbed to the pressures.
Like SA, Israel has an army that is the envy of the world, and its people have this tendency to hunker down get together. When it is a threat from the outside, this strategy works marvels, but as the Palestinian problem is really an internal problem, it is one that could lead to a potential collapse in the government there. Obviously this is the situation that no one wants, but it is one that becomes more and more likely..
The difference is, the Israeli's have the experience of the Holocaust to steel themselves in their defense. They know what can happen to them when they become the minority, and they won't allow that to happen...
If it could happen in Germany... imagine what would happen in the Middle East!?!
Ama has a point, Forma. The socialist kibbutzim were the backbone of Israeli settlement and defense against Fedayeen incursions, and a huge percentage of Israeli politicians and generals were Kibbutzniks.
Yep... Ehud Barak, the former war hero general/prime minister is a prime example. He bent over backwards to make peace, offered up the farm... still wasn't enough. He's a big lefty...
Yeah, but wasn't the foreign policy situation completely different back in 67? The Arab countries had a much closer military parity to Israel and destroying Israel was generaly part of their foriegn policy. Now Israel has almost complete military dominance in that area and most of the surrounding countries have pretty much accepted Israel's existance even if they don't like it.
Syria has accepted Israel's existance? The new Egypt? And what about the next tier of countries... those not directly there, but are still actively funding efforts to destroy Israel? Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Libya...
Didn't Israel have an extremely advantageous military situation at the start of the Six-Day War? I believe that President Lyndon B. Johnson said that Israel would "lick 'em in 7 days" if they attacked first.
No, they had a superior plan and air force, which enabled them to take the initiative in a pre-emptive strike, and thereby take the fight outside of their hard to defend borders of pre-67.
