Never-Before-Seen Civs Poll

[TahamiTsunami]

@Zaarin I believe it was from your posts on here that I first learned about Pushmataha. It didn't take much more research to find out how noteworthy he is and how deserving he is to be a leader in the Civ series!

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

The idea of Finland as a civ sounds cool but Dido and Gilgamesh already get enough flak for being semi-mythical, let alone having an entire civ based on a country that doesn’t even exist.

Well, Finland used to exist, but after the Finno-Korean Hyperwar the Finnish Sea was left were the once great empire had been.

However, even if post-Hyperwar Finland did exist (which it doesn't), I don't know if I'd support its inclusion. I'm not an expert on the matter, but the history they fabricated for it doesn't seem all that inspiring (no doubt a clever move by the conspirators to avoid creating attention). Much like today, Finland seems to have spent much of its "history" as a province of Russia or Sweden. I'm not an expert on it though, I prefer to focus on things that are real.

Also Somalia, Hausa, Yoruba and Igbo but I am afraid only me would vote for them

Any particular reason you'd support all three dominant ethnic groups of Nigeria?

 

[Zaarin]

@Zaarin I believe it was from your posts on here that I first learned about Pushmataha. It didn't take much more research to find out how noteworthy he is and how deserving he is to be a leader in the Civ series!

He's definitely number two on "Native American leaders I'd really, really, really love to see in Civ6" (number one slot being held by Chief Powhatan of the Powhatan).

 

[Vahnstad]

Lithuania might replace Poland in civ 7 after Poland made two appearances in a row, though Poland has bigger audience and is also the bigger of the two countries overall. They just share their golden age with each other, much like Austria and Hungary did, though Austria was relatively even more powerful before, but than as part of HRE. And Hungary has great history too (like 11-13th century especially), and is (surprisingly) very unique in terms of culture (their language).

I'm quite sure Hungary will make an appearance in civ 6. I can't imagine they won't. Together with Canada, likely newcomers. Feel like Vietnam has a good shot as well. Italy too. Ashanti, Ukraine and Mughals are outsiders.

Ireland and Bulgaria probably for civ 7. Lithuania probably too. And Ukraine possibly too. They can also "take" Poland's spot.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

Weren't the First and Second Bulgarian Empires quite important?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

He's definitely number two on "Native American leaders I'd really, really, really love to see in Civ6" (number one slot being held by Chief Powhatan of the Powhatan).

I'd like to see Annie Dodge Wauneka before either of them, frankly.

Weren't the First and Second Bulgarian Empires quite important?

I think so, anyway. I think if they have to include Austria, they should do it in a DLC pack with Bulgaria. Get the unpleasantry of less-important-empires-that-destroy-the-dreams-of-Switzerland-and-Hungary-supporters out of the way all at once.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Bulgaria would be excellent as the third party in a Byzantine-Ottoman DLC since the three empires kind of really hated each other.

 

[TomKQT]

I've been hoping for Czech (Bohemia) for years and years
The leader would obviously be Charles IV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_IV,_Holy_Roman_Emperor), who was also Holy Roman Emperor and did really great things in Bohemia (including building the first university in central Europe).

 

[pgm123]

He's definitely number two on "Native American leaders I'd really, really, really love to see in Civ6" (number one slot being held by Chief Powhatan of the Powhatan).

You're inspiring me to brainstorm, just for fun. Plausible civs/leaders in roughly the order I'd like.

Iroquois - Joseph Brant (Thayendanegea)

Just mixing it up with the leader. Hiawatha, Jigonhsasee, or the Great Peacemaker (Skennenrahawi or his real name, Deganawida) all work for their early history. I suspect the Iroquois would object to using Deganawida as you're not even supposed to use his name and he's essentially a religious figure. I wanted to track down the leaders during the Beaver Wars, but unfortunately there's no record of a single chief being dominant.

Choktaw - Pushmata

I've been thinking about the Choktaw as the logical descendants of the Mound Builders. Obviously I wouldn't base their entire design on a grandparent culture, but people want the "Mississippians" in the game and the Chocktaw are one of the largest groups to emerge from that culture, so make a lot of sense. It helps that they have a good choice for their leader (thanks for that).

Shawnee - Tecumseh

My interest in the Shawnee are from Blue Jacket. But Tecumseh is undeniably more famous in part for his role in Canadian history and forming a distinct Canadian identity. The tough part is figuring out how to differentiate them. They're an Eastern Woodlands Culture who led wars to attempt to stop the expansion of the United States. Blue Jacket was more successful militarily, but failed. Tehcumseh was not successful militarily, but succeeded.

Cherokee - John Ross (Koo-wi-s-gu-wi)

He's the first to come in mind after admittedly cursory research. The Cherokee are the most American-centric Native American tribe, which makes it honestly surprising they haven't been included yet.

Navajo - Manuelito (Hastiin Chʼil Haajiní)

I know. It's another one of those "resisting genocide" tropes, but I no other Navajo leader rises to his level of prominence. I wonder if the Navajo and Apache would be merged. A very lazy way of looking at it is that the Navajo are Apache who were culturally influenced by the settled peoples of the Southwest while the Apache are the Navajo who were influenced by peoples like the Comanche. There are enough things the Navajo are known for (Codetalkers, blankets) that civ design seems possible, if a bit boring.

Lakota - Sitting Bull (Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake)

Same trope, but it's been a while since Sitting Bull was in the game.

Some of these would have to be modded because there's no way they're adding seven (counting Powhattan). Just curious why your top choice is Powhattan?

 

[Zaarin]

Cherokee - John Ross (Koo-wi-s-gu-wi)

He's the first to come in mind after admittedly cursory research. The Cherokee are the most American-centric Native American tribe, which makes it honestly surprising they haven't been included yet.

I'd really rather not. He sold out his own people to line his own pocket book. I don't think he was as crooked as Alexander McGillivray of the Creek--I attribute some of John Ross's failings to incompetence and bad advisors--but that still makes him a horrible leader choice.

Navajo - Manuelito (Hastiin Chʼil Haajiní)

I know. It's another one of those "resisting genocide" tropes, but I no other Navajo leader rises to his level of prominence. I wonder if the Navajo and Apache would be merged. A very lazy way of looking at it is that the Navajo are Apache who were culturally influenced by the settled peoples of the Southwest while the Apache are the Navajo who were influenced by peoples like the Comanche. There are enough things the Navajo are known for (Codetalkers, blankets) that civ design seems possible, if a bit boring.

I'd prefer the Hopi or Zuni for the Southwest, but off the top of my head I can't think of any leaders.

Just curious why your top choice is Powhattan?

Through charisma and cunning he personally founded one of the most powerful confederations in pre-Columbian North America. He attempted to use his political acumen to bring Jamestown into his realm (which failed mostly due to culturally misunderstandings--like for example John Smith thinking he was being saved by an exotic babe rather than undergoing an adoption ceremony [incidentally this happens suspiciously often in Smith's journal... ). But most of all because he is the definition of a big personality. Jamestown settlers who had personally met James I and Elizabeth I described Powhatan as having the state and majesty equal to any monarch in Europe. I think he'd cut quite a figure with a raccoon tail cloak and a crown of feathers and a proud expression. Since Firaxis likes basing their portrayals on actors this time around, I think August Schellenberg was great in the role.


That's Powhatan in the middle.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Navajo - Manuelito (Hastiin Chʼil Haajiní)

I know. It's another one of those "resisting genocide" tropes, but I no other Navajo leader rises to his level of prominence. I wonder if the Navajo and Apache would be merged. A very lazy way of looking at it is that the Navajo are Apache who were culturally influenced by the settled peoples of the Southwest while the Apache are the Navajo who were influenced by peoples like the Comanche. There are enough things the Navajo are known for (Codetalkers, blankets) that civ design seems possible, if a bit boring.

Actually, if Firaxis is really bent on having a female Amerindian leader, Annie Dodge Wauneka is probably the best mainland option. She wasn't a queen like Te Atairangikaahu or Liliuokalani or Anacoana. But she did far more for her tribe than run-of-the-mill warriors like Buffalo Calf, Dahteste, Pine Leaf, and Running Eagle.

I know Manuelito and Barboncito are more obvious choices, but given the dearth of female representation in American civs Annie is a great choice.

I'd prefer the Hopi or Zuni for the Southwest, but off the top of my head I can't think of any leaders.

I'd prefer an outright Anasazi/Pueblo civ before the Hopi or Zuni. But all of those options are off the table because the Hopi are still stuck in the last milennium.

 

[pgm123]

I'd really rather not. He sold out his own people to line his own pocket book. I don't think he was as crooked as Alexander McGillivray of the Creek--I attribute some of John Ross's failings to incompetence and bad advisors--but that still makes him a horrible leader choice.

I'd prefer the Hopi or Zuni for the Southwest, but off the top of my head I can't think of any leaders.

Through charisma and cunning he personally founded one of the most powerful confederations in pre-Columbian North America. He attempted to use his political acumen to bring Jamestown into his realm (which failed mostly due to culturally misunderstandings--like for example John Smith thinking he was being saved by an exotic babe rather than undergoing an adoption ceremony [incidentally this happens suspiciously often in Smith's journal... ). But most of all because he is the definition of a big personality. Jamestown settlers who had personally met James I and Elizabeth I described Powhatan as having the state and majesty equal to any monarch in Europe. I think he'd cut quite a figure with a raccoon tail cloak and a crown of feathers and a proud expression. Since Firaxis likes basing their portrayals on actors this time around, I think August Schellenberg was great in the role.


That's Powhatan in the middle.

I can't speak to John Ross as a person. It's just that he's called the Moses of his people. I feel somewhat confident he isn't the only option.

I sadly don't think we'll ever get the Hopi. I think the Navajo fill a similar role in terms of cultural niche. Though if we're just checking boxes, the Cree check both Eastern Woodlands and Plains and that doesn't leave me happy.

I honestly lean towards the theory that John Smith completely made up the story with Pocahontas. He has too many similar stories in his journal. That's not to say there weren't similar adoption rituals that he could have misinterpreted. I just happen to think it's plausible he made the whole thing up.

You're definitely right in your description of Powhatan and he's one of the few leaders of a confederacy where you can really pinpoint a figure. The Iroquois really suffer from this, despite being a major power.

Actually, if Firaxis is really bent on having a female Amerindian leader, Annie Dodge Wauneka is probably the best mainland option. She wasn't a queen like Te Atairangikaahu or Liliuokalani or Anacoana. But she did far more for her tribe than run-of-the-mill warriors like Buffalo Calf, Dahteste, Pine Leaf, and Running Eagle.

I know Manuelito and Barboncito are more obvious choices, but given the dearth of female representation in American civs Annie is a great choice.

I'm a bit hesitant in picking post-1871 leaders because that's the point where the U.S. stopped negotiating treaties with nations as a sovereign entity.

But she could work for sure.

 

[Zaarin]

Actually, if Firaxis is really bent on having a female Amerindian leader, Annie Dodge Wauneka is probably the best mainland option. She wasn't a queen like Te Atairangikaahu or Liliuokalani or Anacoana. But she did far more for her tribe than run-of-the-mill warriors like Buffalo Calf, Dahteste, Pine Leaf, and Running Eagle.

I know Manuelito and Barboncito are more obvious choices, but given the dearth of female representation in American civs Annie is a great choice.

She died twenty-four years ago. For legal reasons it won't happen.

I'd prefer an outright Anasazi/Pueblo civ before the Hopi or Zuni. But all of those options are off the table because the Hopi are still stuck in the last milennium.

The problem with the Anasazi is that everything we know about them comes from the archaeological record. Even the name Anasazi is Navajo for "Ancient Enemy."

I honestly lean towards the theory that John Smith completely made up the story with Pocahontas. He has too many similar stories in his journal. That's not to say there weren't similar adoption rituals that he could have misinterpreted. I just happen to think it's plausible he made the whole thing up.

I know; like I said, this happened to Smith (at least in his little fantasy world) on an astonishingly regular basis. That being said, what he describes is exactly how many well-attested Algonquian adoption rituals work, and it makes sense that Powhatan would try to make John Smith a chief under him to gain control of Jamestown--he'd done it often enough with other tribes. So I think just this one time it really did happen--it just didn't mean what Narcissus Smith thought it meant.

You're definitely right in your description of Powhatan and he's one of the few leaders of a confederacy where you can really pinpoint a figure. The Iroquois really suffer from this, despite being a major power.

Yeah, it is unfortunate that the Iroquois basically have two options: warchiefs of the individual tribes (like Joseph Brant of the Mohawk, who gets my vote) or unattested figures like Hiawatha.

 

[j51]

I'm mostly sick of Europeans, but changed my vote to include the Goths, because they'd work awesome with the dark age mechanics: They could have bonuses fighting against and flipping cities from civs in a dark age! (Firaxis: You listening?)

 

[Phrozen]

Weren't the First and Second Bulgarian Empires quite important?

The Cyrillic alphabet was invented by Bulgarians during the first Bulgarian empire.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

She died twenty-four years ago. For legal reasons it won't happen.

For legal reasons, it could. For one, Post-mortem right to publicity is a state-governed issue, and state laws only apply to tribal lands upon express agreement with tribal authority (typically this has only extended to criminal and family laws). Arizona, furthermore, has ill-defined law in the area of post-mortem right to publicity and persona. So far only a couple appellate court rulings exist, that suggest that a post-mortem right to publicity exists and is descendible. It has made no rulings on protections of persona (which is practically by definition limited to living persons anyway). There is no federal statute regarding right to publicity.

Point being, is that I'm not even sure Annie's family would have any legal standing if Firaxis just decided to throw her in the game. There's no hardline term for descendible right of publicity in Arizona like there are in other states. And it's unlikely that Annie's right to publicity was assigned in an estate after her death (unless the Navajo are far more progressive and savvy than we'd think).

AND, even if a descendible right to publicity did exist, Firaxis clearly consults with tribes before including them anyway. All they'd need to do is ask the right people, really.

The problem with the Anasazi is that everything we know about them comes from the archaeological record. Even the name Anasazi is Navajo for "Ancient Enemy."

Fair point. We don't know much more about the Pueblo, either, given that they were more of a confederation of several different tribes. I'd prefer the Pueblo, but if reconstructing the Anasazi is the only way to circumvent Hopi disapproval, I'm open to it.

 

[j51]

Fair point. We don't know much more about the Pueblo, either, given that they were more of a confederation of several different tribes. I'd prefer the Pueblo, but if reconstructing the Anasazi is the only way to circumvent Hopi disapproval, I'm open to it.

The Hohokam could be neat too.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

I don't know much about the Phoenicians, but I'm pretty sure they lived on coasts and islands, and I'd like to see a water civ with totally sick coastal yields. Maybe they can be my dream civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

@TahamiTsunami
Just noticed your wish list and saw you had Seondeok for Korea, Wilhelmina for the Netherlands, Genghis Khan for Mongolia, Tamar for Georgia, and Lautaro for the Mapuche. That's not even counting Shaka for the Zulu although that's probably a given. Maybe there is another prophet in our midst?

 

[Guandao]

Actually, if Firaxis is really bent on having a female Amerindian leader, Annie Dodge Wauneka is probably the best mainland option. She wasn't a queen like Te Atairangikaahu or Liliuokalani or Anacoana. But she did far more for her tribe than run-of-the-mill warriors like Buffalo Calf, Dahteste, Pine Leaf, and Running Eagle.

I know Manuelito and Barboncito are more obvious choices, but given the dearth of female representation in American civs Annie is a great choice.



I'd prefer an outright Anasazi/Pueblo civ before the Hopi or Zuni. But all of those options are off the table because the Hopi are still stuck in the last milennium.

It's not the Hopi who are "stuck in the last millennium", but the Tewa people. Popay/Popé (the leader Firaxis wanted to use for the Puebloan Civ), was Tewa. Firaxis turned to the Pueblo Council for help with the voice acting but was refused. The Puebloans would be a blob Civ, at least linguistically. The Puebloan languages consist of the Tanoan languages (which Tewa is a member of , and related to Kiowa, the Kiowa were actually relative latecomers to the Great Plains), the Keresan languages (one of which was featured in a controversial (well at least to some people ) Coca-Cola commercial), Hopi (an Uto-Aztecan language), and Zuni (generally considered an isolate, unless you believe the theory it's related to Japanese ).

In general, the Puebloan peoples are protective of their languages and ancestors. One of my former Professors (who did fieldwork among the Hopi) thought Firaxis was foolish for even considering to add them in the first place.