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New Beta Patch - 1/15

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Recursive, Jan 15, 2021.

  1. stormfallen

    stormfallen Warlord

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    Haciendas seem to be giving actual culture for city-adjacency, instead of border growth. Either that or the loading screen tooltip is outdated. This is without the Veneration or settler cost hotfixes, so I dunno if it was changed in either of those.
    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :

    The Civilopedia entry is also lacking in any info about the adjacency bonuses:
    Spoiler :
     
  2. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

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    I believe it’s been updated
     
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Ok could use some help understanding this.

    I am Arabia going for an CV on Deity, and I'm comparing my tourism to Morocco (looking at the culture overview).

    Arabia: 2271
    Morocco: 3560

    So 64% more tourism than I have. So techwise we both have internet, I've been going a good tradition/artistry run all game, so while I can respect that Morocco bagged some more great works than I did it can't be THAT much more can it? He has statecraft so he did not get extra great works from hidden sites. I am freedom and Morocco is order. Now order can get an extra +3 tourism per work than freedom, but my 25% bonus actually factors in to my base tourism amount, whereas Order's is calculated per civ....so my base should therefore look higher.

    And the last nail, I have 4 non-puppet cities, Morocco has 10. He is suffering a full -30% tourism penalty compared to me when I looked at our capitals.

    So I can't explain it. I can respect that the AI has more tourism than I do, its Deity and I'm still getting the ropes, but 64%.....before his Order percentage bonuses are even factored in?


    My thought is that the culture overview must be factored in something else I am not seeing at base, because otherwise I am at a complete loss. I do know that Morocco got the Great Firewall, does that actually affect your base? (I assumed it only affected your tourism vs the civ, instead of a flat shutdown of your tourism period).
     
  4. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

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    Doesn’t Morocco get a ton of tourism from trade routes? Especially if they went statecraft.
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    That's instant tourism, not base tourism.
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Ok now this is really strange. A few turns later, and both of our tourism levels have dropped significantly. The only thing that happened was Morocco getting sanctioned (which should not affect base tourism as far as I know, and certainly not mine).

    Arabia: 1906
    Morocco: 2812
     
  7. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    The one world congress project that gives everyone a tourism boost?
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Already in play, no change there.

    Edit: Aha! I think I know. It was the tourism boost from international games wearing off.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Standard Communitas_79 on Deity as Arabia. SV on Turn 475!

    So I'll just start this off by saying....I shouldn't have won this game, nor had even a chance to win this game, but we will get to that.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2021-1-22_2-22-50.png


    My plan this game was to try a CV on Deity. Arabia is my go to civ for it, Arabia isn't the best CV civ (although its in the top tier), but its carries a strong science core as well, and has good SV play as a backup. This would prove essential in this game.

    I built out my little 5 city empire against Polynesia, who was the only other person on the continent (at that point...but I get ahead of myself). For a long time, we were good friends and trading partners. Then in the late medieval era Polynesia took a chop at me and bloodied my nose a bit. This would become a pattern, next hitting me in the renaissance. In order to keep up I had severly skimped on ships. It was so bad, by the Industrial Era I had barely explored anything in the world. Then in the late renaissance the hammer got thrown down. Polynesia attacked with a huge sea force, and mongolia came out of nowhere, killing Panama to my west and then doing a strong land invasion.

    This was a look at that devastation (something I posted earlier above)
    Spoiler :




    This should have been the end. Baghdad sacked, Najran gone...and with two mass hordes that had broken through my citadels....I had nothing left to stop it. I was intending to play it out just for fun, see how long I could last. However, Polynesia peaced me out from nowhere!! I was stunned...I was a walking corpse and they offered me mercy.

    Then Mongolia sacked Najran, but left it completely undefended. So I sent a fusilier to take it back, and managed to peace with Mongolia as well. I lived!

    Well...."living" is a strong word, they had pillaged all of my great improvements and left huge swaths of land devastated. I was in shambles, and with Baghdad gone I had only a meager 4 cities, and no water access (in fact towards the end I was completely surrounded on all sides by enemy borders. But I figured, lets see how far I get...and I was curious how the diplomacy AI would treat me and whether I could deal my way back into any kind of shape. So I begin the rebuild, I set up more citadels with my new generals, and fortified the western fronts against Mongolia. There was a strong mountain line there so a few citadels made it very secure. I also got Bradenburg gate, and so finally had enough supply to at least build an actual defense force (I would ultimately have no more than 38 supply the entire game).

    I was still on for my CV plan, 4 cities is extremely brittle but at least my tourism would be higher! And off we went. Mongolia and Polynesia would both test me again, and Poly did some damage, but my lines were strong and I never was truly threatened. Funny enough both Mongolia and Polynesia were in a religious war, with me as the battleground. My actual religion probably switched at least 8 times this game. I was happy for it, as that meant a +25% tourism to one civ or the other, and both gave me some religious buildings that were useful.

    Getting through Industrial I had to gamble, going the north tech tree to secure the strong infrastructure and CV techs I needed (along with robotics to boost my science). I did have to go south on the tree occasionally to ensure some military, my goal was to only stay one unit level below Polynesia so my superior defenses could still counter him, but its a delicate balance as without the raw power of the North tech tree I had no chance of catching up. Also I had 0 oil (0!!!!)....so no tanks and no planes....phew this was going to be hard.

    Ultimately the plan worked well. I secured the CN Tower and Hubble, and with power plants faster than all of the major races I suddenly had a big boost. I also had one more major fortune. I finally got a world map trade and could see the remaining 75% of the map (yes it was that bad). And lo and behold, because of Mongolia and Venice....there were only 3 total CS on the entire map! 2 of them were on my continent, and 1 of them was a sphere for me! This was major, it meant I was not missing out on hordes of yields from all of the CS allies and friends I should normally have, and it meant I could save a lot of hammers on ignoring wire services.

    Then I made a big blunder. I did a timing window of faith buying Musicians and International Games after Telecom. That is a window when Science is flying and culture is low, but I severely underestimated the impact that Endowment for the Arts had had. Science was slow (note I didn't finish until Turn 475....I normally finish sub 400 for SV), and culture was high! I should have instead gone for the window after Internet, to maximize my bombs. That said, realistically I knew CV was likely out of the question. My only hope there was to use my bombs against Mongolia and Polynesia (who were both high culture contenders), and then hope the military civs would knock down the other culture players, allowing me to flip them naturally. It was a far away hope, but I had already assumed I was dead so anything was better than nothing.

    Then that hope was destroyed. The WC was out for blood this game, and sanctions were flying like candy. I got sanctioned, along with Mongolia and eventually Polynesia as well. I lost my TR and open border bonuses, and knew that with my early spent musicians I had no real hope of getting a CV. Well that....and the fact that Morocco had over 50% more tourism than I did :shifty: So CV was not going to be my game. I also lost a ton of money from my lucrative TRs, so it was getting bleaker by the turn.

    Now the interesting thing is, I had a lot of support earlier in the game. A bunch of tech trading, some gifts even. Now its like I had just kicked John Wick's puppy, everyone hated my guts. Denouncements left and right, and even though I was no longer the tech or culture leader people sure seemed to think I was ahead in the game.

    Moving into the final stages, hubble gave me a push but realistically I was a goner. Morocco especially had more policies and techs, and with Order was the number 1 manufacturer in the world. There was no way I was getting to SV before them. And sure enough, as I was getting through the information era, the SS part notifications started flying. I patted myself on the back for making it this far, and decided to play it out for fun, seeing how long it would take the AI to secure a victory, or for Polynesia to get his dark horse DV.

    But...the victory screen never came. I had only 4 cities but they were all prepped and ready to go, power plants and spaceship factories for all of them. My capital was a beast, a 50+ pop capital! So I knew I could churn out the parts, but I was 20 turns behind the leaders if not more, there was no way. And yet, turn by turn I kept getting closer. And then on Turn 475.... all was quiet, and I secured the win:thumbsup: A beaten, near broken, little 4 city civ managed to win a SV on deity against morocco, I couldn't believe it.


    1) To highlight my notes above, as cool as this game was (and hopefully the story that goes with it), the AI must have been sleeping at the wheel to let me win. Morocco was not in any wars at all late game, they had the best production in the game, and they were 20 turns ahead of me in tech if not more. That's a slam dunk victory, the fact that they didn't (they lost by 2 parts as a note), tells me their SV build algorithms need some work.

    2) The late game diplomacy anger was quite surprising. Though I never got war declarations I got a lot of hate from everyone out there, and they voted against releasing my sanctions 3 times in a row. I was pretty surprised by that, in previous games being low in score usually meant a lot of good deals and support from other AIs, but this game I was the whipping boy. Only thing I could really think of was the sanction, perhaps because I was giving them lucrative deals they saw no reason to like me.

    3) Sometimes I think that sanctions shouldn't destroy your franchises, just deactivate them while your sanctioned. It is brutal enough to lose all trade and deal making, but losing all of that work with your franchises (which you never recover from) is so penalizing.

    4) I'm curious about other deity players experiences with peaceful CV. I know players will often war the culture leader to secure it, but is a truly peaceful CV viable? Obviously I have practice to do here, but it was very disheartening to see other AIs with over 50% more tourism than I had, even playing one of the better CV civs.

    5) We have often talked about how much GS plays into the pace of science. So I think its telling that in a game with an early Endowment for the Arts (which was eventually repealed), the game was a full 80-100 turns longer than my normal SV win timeline. Those slower GS really really really make a difference to the tech speed.

    6) Freedom vs Order for the CV. If been thinking about this. Freedom is my default as Arabia, but ultimately was it the right choice? Cultural Revolution gives you a +5 to all of your great works, compared to +2 for freedom. Freedom's you get earlier, but honestly that earlier tourism is not important as compared to after you get the big tourism multipliers later. Freedom you get +25% tourism at tier 3, but dictatorship of the proletariat gives you a massive +50% bonus against less happy civs. Playing a 5 city tradition style, maintaining 100% happiness is trivial, so its a full +25% over freedom and comes earlier. And of course if your culture rival happens to also take Order, you get an extra +34% on top, but that's not reliable. Freedom does have other advantages....but I honestly wonder if its the best way to play CV for a 5 city tall style now.
     
    Bromar1, Phosphoraptor, tu_79 and 3 others like this.
  10. Grassland Farm

    Grassland Farm Warlord

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    Hastily scribbled feedback from my won campaign (I put on the King training wheels because I didn't want to restart too much)

    - I do appreciate, a lot, AIs in a clearly lost war accepting capitulation. However it feels like they just are a bit too content with their fate - all my vassals, peaceful or forced through war, basically instantly asked me for a declaration of friendship on the turn after their vassalisation, and kept it till my victory.
    - I basically was able to turn the power balance of my continent by peacefully vassalizing the 3rd strongest (out of 4, with the 4th being my vassal) player, Boudicca. I just paid her 50 GPT (in early medieval era), and bam, she was now my vassal (and a healthy source of science/culture) and the only remaining player, Wu, no longer had a diplomatic pact with Boudicca, making her an easy prey and turning her into my last vassal.
    - Once again none of these 3 vassals ever tried to mess with me or break free. I don't think a fairly well-doing Boudicca should've offered to give up her independance without a fight. We were on good terms and I was stronger militarily but the AI basically forfeited even though she had a Def. Pact to easily hold me at bay.
    - On the other hand once I got to the other continent they clearly were VERY wary of me, both for my power and for gobbling so many vassals. (On the other hand, their hate also baited them into attacking me, meaning their defensive pacts didn't help em - But that's just Genghis being himself I guess)
    - World Congress was clearly improved, but since my vassals liked me, they pretty much helped me by default, and due to the free Diplomat in their capital I could buy their votes for 2 GPT.
     
  11. Recursive

    Recursive Covets Lands That You Currently Own Moderator

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    Hmm, I think the AI "make peace" logic needs some work. I was afraid of creating another situation where they didn't make peace for 100+ turns, so I may have been too cautious. :)

    AI is more hostile to sanctioned players, and sanctioned AIs are more hostile. Adjustment I made recently.

    Working on the WC stuff, and will revise the vassalage decision-making functions.

    AI clearing negative modifiers and being very willing to befriend their master as long as they're treated well is intended behavior. Survival instinct. ;)
     
  12. 2506

    2506 Warlord

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    This makes sense, but Stalker0's point about the AI falling asleep at the wheel re: voctory seems more of an issue. This may not belong in your bucket, but should be looked at by someone.
     
  13. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    Yes, we're neighbours, but it literally happened in the span of a few turns in the ancient era, so I don't think there could have been a big surge in their military power. As far as I know, nothing really changed on my side (didn't settle any new cities etc.) nor on their side, so it seems really schizophrenic, unless they were "thinking" sth like: "Ok, we wanted to secure that flank, he didn't want a DoF, so he's a threat, let's eliminate him".
     
  14. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    I concur with Stalker, I have pointed out a few times in the past that the AI sometimes lacks the final oomph to win the game, allowing the human to make a comeback.
     
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  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    It was changed, but it looks like my text changes didn't merge :mad:
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
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  16. Recursive

    Recursive Covets Lands That You Currently Own Moderator

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    Hmm. I think I know how to address this.

    Edit: Should be better...the AI "reevaluates" a player's approach when certain events occur, ignoring the gradual approach curve. I added a trigger whenever expansion aggressive posture / land dispute levels increased. So if they suddenly get territorial disputes they can now suddenly rather than gradually become more hostile.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
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  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Here is another beautiful AI tactical showing:

    Spoiler :

    upload_2021-1-22_19-24-9.png


    Even just a few versions ago, this city would have been pretty safe, as the AI would have thrown its navy into the tight choke, letting my muskets pound them while only doing minimal damage to the city. But the AI has gotten so much better with its combined arms, it lands on the northwest side where my army is noneexistant and it has plenty of naval protection. It brings in a solid mix of melee, ranged, and a bit of siege. Then crushes in with all 3 at once. This city fell in 3 turns, much to my horror.

    I have to give the slow clap to the AI here, it did the invasion picture perfect.
     
    vyyt, Bromar1, Legen and 8 others like this.
  18. stii

    stii King

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    I don't think it is really possible without some other victory type just being easier. The AI just generates so much everything. You can beat science by being smarter but tourism is a lot more just raw numbers.
     
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  19. John.B.C

    John.B.C Prince

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    I'd say this is a great part of it. The AI make peace way to quickly and in totally unnecessary situations, when if it instead had pushed onwards might had taken 'cities' gaining culture, science and gold - becoming even more powerful.

    In my lastest game, me and the Aztecs are friends, they took a city from Korea, and together we could had really crush them completely... but... they peaced out (without any particular reason) when we had a great advantage of sharing the wealth of this nation between us.

    I'd would raise some caution here though, I tend to block AI units, so that I can 'snap' the cities. So a continued war might have meant that he had just helped me grow. I think this 'blocking' in situations like this and others - for instance - when I'm having 2 units standing in the way of America in their war against the city-state of Geneva - making it almost impossible for them to win the city, should have consequences.

    Perhaps when it comes to snaping cities (and even barbcamps) taking "damage" into consideration: If a player has done a ton of damage to a city, the AI should consider it as an act of treachery if I'm to take advantage of that and snap it from him in the last moment.


    Spoiler Aztecs happy with peace :
    upload_2021-1-23_13-1-29.png
     
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  20. John.B.C

    John.B.C Prince

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    BTW. The handling of great people could be improved (if possible, since it has been putting them in danger as long as I can remember). In the picture above this great general keeps standing on that hill without protection - turn after turn. I'm just ignoring it.
     

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