New Beta Version - August 16th (8/16)

[HixBozo]

Using this I get a CTD 50% of the time clicking on strategic view. Anyone else?

No glitches on my side on strategic view. But stealing workers is fixed. I just stole one Austrian worker and he is now working on the farms

 

[LifeOfBrian]

When playing Progress peacefully, usually 6-8 owned cities. When warring, I puppet all the cities except conquered capitals and really extraordinarily strong non-capitals. I usually stop at around 7 conquered cities and then I can win a peaceful SV from thereonin.

 

[tothePAIN]

When playing Progress peacefully, usually 6-8 owned cities. When warring, I puppet all the cities except conquered capitals and really extraordinarily strong non-capitals. I usually stop at around 7 conquered cities and then I can win a peaceful SV from thereonin.

Generally this.

If you've chosen certain policies, it's possible to annex more. Order has scaling wide between corporations and factories. If you go the food corporation with order, you can go very wide. Happiness problems disappear.

Progress's culture nerf hurt it recently but I prefer it for civs without a strong early UU. The increased gold and the happiness policy really help.

 

[Jiggly]

Are you complaining that the devs make version too quickly? Either way, you have about a month and a half to play a game. Usually hotfixes are only for bugs, and they are savegame compatible. The last major hotfix was made nearly a week ago, and there weren't any game-breaking bugs.

nope not complaining. making theoretically funny jokes is all. was hoping "tone" would give it away

 

[Stalker0]

When playing Progress peacefully, usually 6-8 owned cities. When warring, I puppet all the cities except conquered capitals and really extraordinarily strong non-capitals. I usually stop at around 7 conquered cities and then I can win a peaceful SV from thereonin.

yep that seems about in line with my notes. 9 seems to be the tipping point from “I need to do a few things to stay happy” to “I need to commit huge portions of my efforts not to have rebellion”

 

[Jiggly]

Just wanted to let people know, particularly @CrazyG that I also posted a Github issue for the Progress opener, and the response was 'already fixed'. Which implies that it was indeed unintentional. Might be in the hotfix above? Guess I'll try it and find out.


That sounds frustrating! I tend to prefer to keep playing a particular game until I finish, or get bored and then check the new stuff . So if there's something new coming out soon I'll start a game anyway and just see how it goes.

I wish I could do that. When i know there's a "better" version of something on the way, I lose all confidence in the current version. I have tinkered with Skyrim modding for like 6 years and never actually finished a playthrough for this reason. In case your not familiar with Skyrim modding, the new and better mods are constantly released in an endless cycle of one upsman-ship. Its what I like to call a "good problem."

Edit: Random Relevant Quote: Perfection is the enemy of good enough

-Someone smarter than me

 

[SilentReply]

If you go the food corporation with order, you can go very wide. Happiness problems disappear.

I've seen this mentioned a couple times now. Does the food corporation give some bonus to happiness beyond its description? Besides the significant bonuses to food, it only mentions that it reduces the needs modifiers in every city by 5%. Based on my understanding that is only about 1/4 the effect of a single public works.

Personally I've had consistent success going ultra wide by keeping a few core cities locked on "avoid growth" for the entire late game, to provide a happiness surplus "bank" for puppets and annexing. I always found it ironic that my happiest cities are the ones where permanent draconian stagnation measures are enforced, meanwhile I can found a city on a new frontier, build just one franchise office and have more production than the strongest AI capital, yet the citizens there will still be demanding more food/production.

 

[HixBozo]

It seems like I am able to pillage my vassal's trade caravans. That's weird

 

[tothePAIN]

I've seen this mentioned a couple times now. Does the food corporation give some bonus to happiness beyond its description? Besides the significant bonuses to food, it only mentions that it reduces the needs modifiers in every city by 5%. Based on my understanding that is only about 1/4 the effect of a single public works.

Personally I've had consistent success going ultra wide by keeping a few core cities locked on "avoid growth" for the entire late game, to provide a happiness surplus "bank" for puppets and annexing. I always found it ironic that my happiest cities are the ones where permanent draconian stagnation measures are enforced, meanwhile I can found a city on a new frontier, build just one franchise office and have more production than the strongest AI capital, yet the citizens there will still be demanding more food/production.

For the food corporation, each office reduces needs in ALL cities. I recently has a game where I had conquered most of the world and had 29 cities. I had gone Order. Once I used Nationalization and built 22 offices, needs in each city were reduced by 110% and my happiness went to 100%.

 

[Deljade]

Epic/Huge player tries peaceful wide on STANDARD settings and INCREASED difficulty, the game gives him WARMONGERS, see what happens next (brutal)

There's been a bit of discussion about peaceful wide lately so I decided to play my game with Standard™ settings this time. Please do not mind the jokes I'll be making here and there but do consider the opinion of a huge/epic player trying these settings
patch 9-2 (progress opener and scaler 10 culture), difficulty Immortal, Normal speed, Standard size Continents+, ruins enabled but did not get anything too major like a tech etc. no raging barbs. I would not declare any wars or conquer cities.

Right off the bat I had to restart a couple perfectly playable games because it would be physically impossible to play peaceful wide. No matter how fast I'll build settlers there is no way to get more than 5-6 cities. There is nothing wrong with these games by the way I would either play tall or make conquests normally, but since I started with a purpose there was no reason to bother. Seems as if someone wants to have the option to do peaceful wide in every game, these are not the settings for that.

Spoiler Example :

So off we go to third start.

Spoiler Start and early game :

Here I had to re-try one time because a crucial strategy mistake was made; I tried to do the Parthenon rush. This was wrong because firstly, I could not get the Parthenon fast enough if I had to pick up Walls tech. Secondly, just walls... weren't enough to convincingly stop Attila, so it was messy. The Archers and Chariots (have they been nerfed?) did NOTHING to Swordsmen. But because I could not get the Parthenon, I decided that, while this is a very good Progress plan in a chill game, Mathematics would be essential here.

While Darius gave me my first loss in VP more than a year ago and I was wary of his aggressiveness, I absolutely despise Attila. Not so much due to early pressure but moreso because of his land claiming ability. I had to spend a considerable amount of gold buying tiles during the early game just to not get encroached.
My plan to play peaceful wide against these people was simple, forward settle the most defensive spots I can find and fill the space behind. Attila did not take it too kindly and was immediately hostile, Darius was thankfully more chill at the start.

Of course picked Progress, got first Pantheon just by going Shrine first (this never happens in my usual games) and picked Open Sky. I think Open Sky's strength lies in that it's a decent pantheon in a lot of cases. There are some situationally better pantheons but Open Sky seems to be decent in just about any flat start. I had not picked it in a while and had to micro quite a bit to make the most out of it. Ended up getting second religion. Probably due to the lack of faith mongers. Poland's UA allowed me to pick Great Library, admittedly this is an area where Progress on a civ without any boosts to culture would fail. I still think I'd be able to get the Oracle either way, which I did.
Early attacks came with a lot of force, of course, but as I expected the terrain as well as my build up of troops and defenses was enough to repel them with minimal losses. I can't say I am Impressed really. For all it's tactical prowess, the AI still can't deal with defensible positions properly. Especially once I got castles the attacks just lost their impact. Of course I had to invest a considerable amount of as well as prioritise the unit techs in order to defend myself. These, I think, along with the spent on tiles, set me back considerably, compared to where I would be if I had passive neighbors.

Spoiler Is 9 cities wide enough Standard boys?? :

There were times when unhappiness was quite strained, in general I tried to settle as soon as I could, for example right after Equality or after meeting a new civ to trade for Luxuries. Being peaceful means many opportunities to trade. For the Westernmost two cities I placed the Settlers at the spots preemptively and waited to be around Harbors tech in order to defend them effectively until I can build ships.
I got 2nd religion, not used to getting it so early. I notice there are only 3 beliefs that generate faith, one is only with specialists. I pick Cooperation as I desire faith generation to enhance fast and I do foresee a lot of growth. I enhance quite fast and build some WLTKD synergy with Synagogues and Theocratic Rule to go with Fealty. Fealty being a natural pick for a wide founder with many pastures that needs defense. Not a great spot for wide Statecraft, most of the City-States were gone by the end anyway.
At this point I am missing most of the wonders I would have liked to pick up like Red Fort, Eiffel Tower etc, only snagging Tower of Pisa and Neuschwanstein by dashing to Railroad and spending a GE. Things are nevertheless going alright, although a little stressed for Military Supply, having a lot of cities means a lot of units to defend myself and a lot of Strategics, even had Horse and Coal monopolies.
Went on Industry because it's a good tree to play THICK with, and it's got ITR and WLTKD synergy with Fealty, Order and my religion. Bit of a tried and true build but I didn't start this game to innovate. Rationalism's bonuses not too important as I get 2k foods corp. From here, I just kind of explode. As if I do not have high enough culture already, Casimir bestows upon me two free tenets, I get my T3 as others have barely got a T1. Any unhappiness that I get is Urbanisation from working near maximum number of Specialists. The hefty gold surplus from a big Industry nation as well as the Citizen birth yields is enough to rush Hospitals, Stock Exchanges and every building in the construction queue really, further accelerated by Order's freebies and good yields. There is also enough for a few smart Tech trades just when I'm still middle of the pack but right before the big yields start coming online, they would price their techs too high later. Being tied with Gustavus and Oba on science means I can get basically every wonder with my abundance of hammers and GE boosts. Culture and Science got boosted further by using processes in free turns.

Spoiler Fought all AIs over the course of the game, no space to cover all the wars :

Trust me I looked really hard to found more cities and there were no available spots that were not 1 tile snow islands. Therefore I created my own space, by using Great Generals and founded two more cities that came online very soon, one pumped culture with a rushed Broadway. Besides having a bunch of Generals from all the defensive wars I fought, I also picked them at every free GP opportunity, the claimed land was very helpful since I would not make any city conquests and I could only wish I had Lebensraum tenet from Autocracy.
Another good thing with having a lot of cities is higher number of total for projects and for tourism protection. Being peaceful means you go under the radar for a much longer time. And so I only got sanctioned quite late, which was annoying, but did not fundamentally disrupt me.
I have become very proficient at the Information Era tech dash so it was easy to get way ahead of everyone. I will commend Askia as he has put in big big efforts to disrupt me, notably with war weariness.

Spoiler Fighter till the bitter end, he only got 3 capitals by the end :

Now this was a long war and I am a sucker for late game wars, but I won't bother you with the details, the important thing is that the valiant Hussar charges broke their endless numbers so that the Polish eagle was free to fly into space and get the hell out of this hellhole (my nation looks like an eagle, you see that, right?). Also, yes, I conquered 2 cities on the last 10 turns in a peaceful run, sue me.

I'll post some general comments later

 

[SilentReply]

For the food corporation, each office reduces needs in ALL cities. I recently has a game where I had conquered most of the world and had 29 cities. I had gone Order. Once I used Nationalization and built 22 offices, needs in each city were reduced by 110% and my happiness went to 100%.

I'm thinking either this is bugged or the description is inaccurate. The office bonus reads "-5% to all needs modifiers in THE city. The only stacking bonus from number of franchises should be +3 food per franchise.

Spoiler food corporation :

In any case, thanks for the clarification. I suppose in the meantime it is a VERY viable option for wide play.

 

[azum4roll]

It better be viable, since food is the worst yield at that point of the game.

 

[tothePAIN]

I'm thinking either this is bugged or the description is inaccurate. The office bonus reads "-5% to all needs modifiers in THE city. The only stacking bonus from number of franchises should be +3 food per franchise.

Spoiler food corporation :

View attachment 568734

In any case, thanks for the clarification. I suppose in the meantime it is a VERY viable option for wide play.

Description is inaccurate. It got changed relatively recently because people have complained that the food corporation is a trap.

I'll chime in to second others who are confused as to why Progress' culture from technologies has been nerfed. I had hoped it would be fixed on this hotfix.

 

[Voremonger]

Maybe TwoKay Foods could be given some bonus to the generation of Great People?
I think no other Corporation does this yet.

 

[pineappledan]

... yes they do. The strongest corporation is the one that boost GPs

 

[tu_79]

... yes they do. The strongest corporation is the one that boost GPs

Jewelers?

 

[vyyt]

It seems like I am able to pillage my vassal's trade caravans. That's weird

Are you Morocco? Their UA allows this - but it damages your reputation with the civ in question if they can see you doing it.

 

[HixBozo]

Are you Morocco? Their UA allows this - but it damages your reputation with the civ in question if they can see you doing it.

Yes exactly Morocco. But I thought only scouts can do it, turns out any soldier can do it. So that's normal, didn't know it.

 

[legoras]

My game crash at AI turn, when any AI try to use Guided Missile, if I delete GM from frontline cities using ingame editor then all works.

Anyone maybe had that same?
Or other question, at your games, AI use Guided Missile and all works?

I use like 10 mods (no any big changes/overhauls but still) created into my own Modpack, that's why I dont want to create github bug report for now.

 

[Deljade]

First of all, 2K foods. I've done some tinkering and found that 6 offices were enough to completely eliminate any needs unhappiness. This is what my unhappiness looks like without any Offices and no processes;

Spoiler Unhappiness :

The scaler is obviously good. Too good? Ehhh, it's one of these things that even at 2% would still have high impact. At 5% it just eliminates any Unhappiness for the rest of the game for wide players. Maybe we could try something like 3%? So that a drawn out war like the one Askia waged at the end of the game would still pose some threat to Unhappiness. I do believe that having the scaler is a good thing because plain food is just bad. I mean, look at the other Corporations, food just can't compete with their benefits.

Progress does lack early Culture, especially with the "nerfed" opener. This is why I like to pick Progress with civs that have a natural Culture gain, like the Netherlands or Poland, any early unique building etc. Is this a problem? Early wonder game is really poor for Progress without a culture earning civ, we can decide if this is the way we want things. I personally think Progress is pretty good right now, would not mind trying the 15 Culture on opener again. Or a 12 opener 12 scaler etc.

The war AI felt worse for me compared to the Summer versions? Here are some observations;
-Attila really struggled to find a spot to use Siege weapons with, you can check the location of Lodz and tell me if you'd do better, I picked that spot specifically for it's defensiveness. Desert is deceptively good defensive terrain, as opposed to vanilla. He struggled to overcome my defenses either way, only being able to pillage a few tiles, losing the Horses was annoying but manageable.
-Gustavus Had two instances where he marched his Field Guns through the desert unescorted. I don't know if that's a leader flavour or if the extra movement from the UA confuses the AI but they were easy pray for my winged hussars.
-Askia struggled with the landing of troops. It looked like he could not land everything at once. In the late game he could not deal with my Stationed troops in the shores. He attempted to bomb them with planes which I had been intercepting but didn't really have enough ranged ships (I assume due to the lack of Iron) to dent my defenses, the unlucky units that managed to come ashore got destroyed by tanks etc.
-The naval AI maybe relies a little too much on baiting? It lacks initiative, if I pushed Askia could capitalise on it but when I held formation the AI just tried to dance around it, not dealing any real damage.
-Air AI was fine, would bomb and intercept, but I noticed it would not really utilise Air Sweep? Maybe this is the last step to make a truly competent air unit AI.
-In general there were smart tactical decisions made but I was not overly impressed this game.
-Askia did eat 2 civs, Gustavus ate one, they both got Authority and were top performers. Warmonger AI doing good, I am not sure a Domination victory is possible but hey, they were competent in science.

Unit balance, from the perspective of a defensive wide civ;
-Chariot Archers are very weak. Definitely not great for much, against a warmonger, my go to defense would be Archers with Spearmen and Walls, while waiting for Mathematics and Skirmishers/Comp Bowmen. Chariots seem very niche.
-I like the improved Barrage promo. I find myself splitting ranged promos 50-50 now.
-Love the Winged Hussars, also the Armored units, very impactful.
-I would like to learn some details about the way Anti-Air and Destroyers intercept, what is their range? Do they always intercept or can something slip, etc.
-I really like Missile Cruisers and Jet Fighters impact, Stealth Bombers were okay. 12 range is waaaaaay more relatively speaking in a Standard map than in Huge.
-Nuclear Submarines put in good work. Regular Submarines are rather weak. This thing is that they can no longer one shot transports and ranged ships like they did in vanilla. The best way I've found to use them was in groups of 3 and operating near the main fleet, as kind of support units, they can't put work on their own.
-Late game war felt somewhat impactful, had I neglected my late game Defense and unit buildup I think I could be in trouble. Of course I was in position to do it due to the great Industry-Order yields.

Differences between Huge-Epic and Standard;
-Early game, and especially religion felt like a walk. I have NEVER gotten first pantheon before and I also never gotten the Great Library, probably in a very long time. I think this is a combination of there being statistically more faith-mongers in Huge as well as AI bonuses having more time to compound in Epic speed. It was not hard to keep up in science at all.
-It's way easier to react to things in a kneejerk manner in Normal speed. Got declared on? Just have your high prod capital quickly pump out some units. Just quickly buy that Castle, it'll be ready in 2 turns instead of 4, not nearly enough time for them to level your city. I feel there is more planning required when playing on Epic while you can easily be impulsive in Normal and do well.
-Build and order decisions feel less impactful on Normal speed, not a fan.
-Warfare is somewhat different. I would not say easier per se at least from a defensive standpoint. Also not enough time to enjoy the fullest experience of each era.

Viability of peaceful-wide?;
-Well in Huge, with some good play and planning from your part, it's possible to establish a 12+ city nation in many games and play peacefully with expansions in the Renaissance. In Standard, I assume 9 is considered wide. I would do 10 but could not due to Attila's UA, and didn't want to settle the Deserts too early, got 2 late game cities for a total of 11.
-So, in Standard, I don't think going peaceful wide is physically a possibility in many games. Even if building very dense cities, that will be +1 city at best and they will suck happiness wise. I tried to do 4-5 distance which is reasonable, I think. I did not feel any of the initial 9 cities were a burden at any point in the game, Happiness somewhat challenging but manageable with good timing. The later two cities had to be carried for culture initially but one was pumping culture with Broadway. They were also very very quick to become a positive in Science.
-Peaceful Wide (as opposed to warmonger wide) tourism is really absolutely NOT a thing. And I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be?

Spoiler Advantages of being wide :

>More total to win Projects and to get shielded from
>A lot of Strategics (excess can be usedfor bargaining) and good possibility for Strategic monopolies in Standard size. Also Landmarks for
>More units and . Yes, being larger requires higher Unit and Gold to maintain, but the increase in costs in not as quick as the increase in potential.
>More cities for other civs To dump their , , through Trade Routes, this works best while peaceful.
>Higher resistance to being warred, having 1 out of 9 cities raided is waaaaay easier to handle than having 1 out of 5

Spoiler Advantages of being peaceful :

>Lots of opportunities.
>Lots of from trade deals.
>Sanctions come very late.
>generally a chill experience. I had to worry less on which piece of land I should spit blood over and more on my pharaonic projects, like the railroad system or Wonder building.

Spoiler Attila's 5 stages of grief :

Denial

Anger

Bargaining, he made some funny demands too but I didn't screenshot them : (

Depression

Acceptance