New Beta Version - January 26th (1-26)

[Gothic_Empire]

Cool, have fun with your maths you scientist man.

you owe me a goddamn keyboard

 

[Gokudo01]

Your forgetting about production modifiers, investment benefits, policy and tenet modifiers, etc.

G

it's an argument that some people here did mention when i was talking about workshop. so first, it's a zero sum game. what I have invest in factory, I could have invest it in public school, museum or military academy.
Second, it depend how you value gold. if 2 gold = 1 hammer, you can just integrate the gold invest into the maths

Moreover I said double everything (it's a +100% efficiency bonus from any source, for example double +100% hammer modifier, +100 production modifier etc ... ), the building is still not worth building.

Old factory was good for 3 reasons :

First,at industrialisation, engineer was 5 production and 2 science. with factories, engineers got an extra + 2 gold. Engineer with factory was providing a mine ( unless you went Industry or your mine is near fresh water) while providing some gold and science ( which help to reduce illiteracy and poverty )
second, the factories made merchant suddenly super good, from 5 gold and 2 production to 5g and 4p. if you were working all your specialists, factory alone gave your +14 gold(specialist in forge/workshop/windmill/train stationx2/factoryx2) +30 production (market, custom house, bank + 1/4 population) and more to come with stock exchange.
third, your specialists were better that most of your non-specialists tiles and you were not forced to work as many food tiles. Now they cost more food to sustain and bring extra unhappiness .

So yes, before factory was good because it didn't bring only production : by the way, the production was higher, there were gold(so factory was helping against poverty) and less reason to not work specialist. Moreover factory was enhancing all your gold and production buildings with specialist.

ps :

Old factory :

+3 production
2 engineer slot
All Engineer specialists in the city gain +2 golds. All Merchant specialists in the city gain +2
+1 production for every 4 Citizens in the City.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Can you not select another pantheon belief as the bonus belief while playing Byzantium? I picked renewal to start and then selected springtime later because of the amount of plantations I had in my empire, but the extra food and gold was never applied to my plantations (btw my neighbor had already picked springtime. I also noticed I could buy my second prophet at like 740 faith, which is cheaper than if it had auto spawned at around 850 faith (not that I'm complaining).

 

[Gazebo]

it's an argument that some people here did mention when i was talking about workshop. so first, it's a zero sum game. what I have invest in factory, I could have invest it in public school, museum or military academy.
Second, it depend how you value gold. if 2 gold = 1 hammer, you can just integrate the gold invest into the maths

Moreover I said double everything (it's a +100% efficiency bonus from any source, for example double +100% hammer modifier, +100 production modifier etc ... ), the building is still not worth building.

Old factory was good for 3 reasons :

First,at industrialisation, engineer was 5 production and 2 science. with factories, engineers got an extra + 2 gold. Engineer with factory was providing a mine ( unless you went Industry or your mine is near fresh water) while providing some gold and science ( which help to reduce illiteracy and poverty )
second, the factories made merchant suddenly super good, from 5 gold and 2 production to 5g and 4p. if you were working all your specialists, factory alone gave your +14 gold(specialist in forge/workshop/windmill/train stationx2/factoryx2) +30 production (market, custom house, bank + 1/4 population) and more to come with stock exchange.
third, your specialists were better that most of your non-specialists tiles and you were not forced to work as many food tiles. Now they cost more food to sustain and bring extra unhappiness .

So yes, before factory was good because it didn't bring only production : by the way, the production was higher, there were gold(so factory was helping against poverty) and less reason to not work specialist.

ps :

Old factory :

+3 production
2 engineer slot
All Engineer specialists in the city gain +2 golds. All Merchant specialists in the city gain +2
+1 production for every 4 Citizens in the City.

I never said the new factory was supposed to be as good as the old factory. Tell you what, though, try running a game where you don't build factories and let me know how late game production scales without them.

G

 

[Gokudo01]

I never said the new factory was supposed to be as good as the old factory. Tell you what, though, try running a game where you don't build factories and let me know how late game production scales without them.

G

I did in the last patch with tradition korea(one in the capital nothing in the other cities), I didn't have any issue until I was forced to get them for nuclear plant ^^.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I did in the last patch

(one in the capital

Choose one.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Now, Factories :

Let's take a city with 24 citizens and 2 manufactories. ( the almost ideal setup ), you get 5 + 24/4 + 2*2 = 15 production.
Let's say you work the extra engineer slot ( which you shouldn't unless it's your tradition capital or you are deep in freedom ), it's a 15 + 5 = 20 production.

1250 /20 = 62.5 turns. you should have this building available between turn 240 ( but who dives into industrial through steam power + railroad) and turn 300.

let's say your game finish at turn 400. you will get 200 extra hammer from the factory, it's not an industrial building cost, it's not even a industrial unit cost, it's a classical building cost.

Serious, you like to play this game with math, but can´t do math. 100 turns with 20 hammer each turn are total of 2000 hammer, not 200. With an easy to reach +25% production modifier by train station, you get 2500 hammer. Double the amount of hammer you invested. You also didnt count any additionaly modifiers like wind mill or the fact, the city will grow after that moment you have build it.
I agree, the factory could be stronger after the (necessary) nerf to specialists. Maybe go 1 hammer for 3 pop instead of 4. But we are still trying to find a good balance after the huge change in the last 3 versions. So, be patient.

third, your specialists were better that most of your non-specialists tiles and you were not forced to work as many food tiles. Now they cost more food to sustain and bring extra unhappiness .

Yeah, and it was stupid, your specialists were mightier than GP tile improvements. Getting a GP to create such a tile is rare and gets harder and harder, while you can easily have several specialist slots in every city. Gazebo decided, working tiles have priority, and this is right. If you whine and cry about those changes, go back to a previos version.

But I agree.... its a bit stupid to build a situational building to get the elementary building factory. But now with +5 hammer, its worth to build it anyway. Still it would be better, to unlock those buldings from each other.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Gazebo, do you want to get big cities unhappy, no matter how good they do, only cause they are big?
If I read it correctly, its now harder to get cities happy by tresholds, but atleast with crime, your balance is a bit wrong.
I have the city with the highest defence 106, second highest is 71, build every available protection building, a garrison unit and it is only 1 and 2 pop smaller than the first 2 biggest cities.
And still. I have 1 unhappiness by crime, and its the previos version.

Could CS create this issue, are they counted toward the threshhold average too? From midgame on, they didnt grow that much but still have a lot of protection. This could lead to a high defence per population value, big cities cant reach, cause there are only few options to increase the defence of a city.

 

[Gokudo01]

Serious, you like to play this game with math, but can´t do math. 100 turns with 20 hammer each turn are total of 2000 hammer, not 200. With an easy to reach +25% production modifier by train station, you get 2500 hammer. Double the amount of hammer you invested. You also didnt count any additionaly modifiers like wind mill or the fact, the city will grow after that moment you have build it.
I agree, the factory could be stronger after the (necessary) nerf to specialists. Maybe go 1 hammer for 3 pop instead of 4. But we are still trying to find a good balance after the huge change in the last 3 versions. So, be patient.


Yeah, and it was stupid, your specialists were mightier than GP tile improvements. Getting a GP to create such a tile is rare and gets harder and harder, while you can easily have several specialist slots in every city. Gazebo decided, working tiles have priority, and this is right. If you whine and cry about those changes, go back to a previos version.

But I agree.... its a bit stupid to build a situational building to get the elementary building factory. But now with +5 hammer, its worth to build it anyway. Still it would be better, to unlock those buldings from each other.

I don't know why the aggressive tone, maybe because I'm french, it's a german habit since bismark (see I can be an ass too ) I said I could do mistakes and I could be wrong...
buildings which provide production for production are hard to balance. Because too much production and they become core and not enough and they are useless.

I think you are right. you build it if you think you get value from it.

 

[Gazebo]

Gazebo, do you want to get big cities unhappy, no matter how good they do, only cause they are big?
If I read it correctly, its now harder to get cities happy by tresholds, but atleast with crime, your balance is a bit wrong.
I have the city with the highest defence 106, second highest is 71, build every available protection building, a garrison unit and it is only 1 and 2 pop smaller than the first 2 biggest cities.
And still. I have 1 unhappiness by crime, and its the previos version.

Could CS create this issue, are they counted toward the threshhold average too? From midgame on, they didnt grow that much but still have a lot of protection. This could lead to a high defence per population value, big cities cant reach, cause there are only few options to increase the defence of a city.

Cities should normally produce a few bits of unhappiness from somewhere, yes. Crime and poverty are near-constants both in-game and IRL.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Cities should normally produce a few bits of unhappiness from somewhere, yes. Crime and poverty are near-constants both in-game and IRL.

G

So, its intended to create some unhappiness for big cities/lategame, even leading in some aspect?
Ok, I can live with the answer. I just wanted to make sure it was intended.

I don't know why the aggressive tone, maybe because I'm french, it's a german habit since bismark (see I can be an ass too ) I said I could do mistakes and I could be wrong...
buildings which provide production for production are hard to balance. Because too much production and they become core and not enough and they are useless.

First, this wasnt an attack, more a joke. If you want to prove something with numbers, you should also be sure that your numbers are correct.
Second, the answer was a rather stupid, racist attempt to offend me. After all, we all know that Frenchmen are pretty bad at attacking anyone.

 

[Ziad]

Crime and poverty are near-constants IRL.

G

Proposal: Factory is now Cake Factory. Eliminates crime and poverty in the city as citizens can now eat cake.

 

[bigcat88]

Isn't warmonger score raising too high? I capture first city with population 9 and get -50-70 diplo penalty.

 

[Deadstarre]

barbs are embarking turn 17, no civ has the tech for it.

bug? intended?

Spoiler :

 

[tu_79]

Proposal: Factory is now Cake Factory. Eliminates crime and poverty in the city as citizens can now eat cake.

But it increases coronary deaths...

 

[IcyAngel]

Proposal: Factory is now Cake Factory. Eliminates crime and poverty in the city as citizens can now eat cake.

Let them eat cake.

 

[bigcat88]

Hm, I got crash even with disabled autosaves, but in Renaissance era... and looks like it was on barbs turn
Will go sleep now, and tomorrow will load last save(don't remember how many turns ago it was) and try to continue - maybe it will be repeatable.

 

[Gazebo]

barbs are embarking turn 17, no civ has the tech for it.

bug? intended?

Spoiler :

Yeah coastal barbs can when spawned there. Free promotion for them.

G

 

[Infixo]

Hm, I got crash even with disabled autosaves, but in Renaissance era...

Crash is good. It’s easier to track than freeze. Dont forget to copy minidump!

 

[black213]

Still getting freezes during barbarian turns.