New Beta Version - January 3rd (1/3)

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It's funny how it went from "Carthage sux" to "Carthage OP" within the same two pages. I didn't even realize investment costs were reduced so I'm partly to blame for that.

Goes to show the value of testing before resisting :p

I still dislike how Great Cothon is still comparatively weaker. This is just shifting the strength to the UA even more.

Maybe reduce founding gold but give Great Cothon scaling # of TR?
 
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Naval nerf almost seems related to it being so hard to teach the AI how to ocean. Maybe I've just gotten unlucky in the few games I've put in so far. Just feels like an increasingly segregated portion of the game.

Swapping Range (and Indirect Fire, which now requires Range to matter) with Logistics makes a certain amount of sense to me. Cities that a navy can capture (melee ships) can be hit with 1 range. Units, particularly those with range, can easily hide a tile away from the coastline (granted, ships with enough movement can fire and then leave). Anti-unit promotion navy can, theoretically, help clear a beachhead for an army to land at. VP's AI being better at spamming units make it seem that there's a need to be able to clear out units around a city if you don't want it instantly recaptured.

Either way, it does make those one ocean tile coastal cities even easier to defend/harder to assault.


I'm interested in what the exp change for purchased units was supposed to address. Having a unit permanently be behind the exp curve doesn't feel great. I already nigh instantly donate units a CS gives me if they're too behind on exp (spawned at a puppet... whhhhyyyyy). I get that this makes it more of an emergency option, but purchase cooldowns already limit it some (despite being a mechanic that favors wide, unless the cooldown is based on cities the empire owns) and this patch is also aiming to reduce gold yield bloat so that a unit purchase is more of a choice and less "I make enough to buy 2-3 units a turn, might as well rotate them cooldowns." Can still buy diplo units at no penalty. Just confused as to the aim and what it's supposed to help solve. I get that there's an option to disable on the user's end, but as said I'm interested in what the change was addressing as I'm sure there was a whole discussion on it.
No way, venice needs to be able to buy units especially late game, stamping out a unit every turn doesn't compare with many cities. Apparently the gold bloat was reduced, please make units ratios comparable to buildings.

PS without playing the mod, purchase reductions must apply to units plox.
Venice is a good point, in regards to the reduced unit exp. Easy enough to code an exception, though.


Side question, maybe related to a particular version I played (12/15 was my most recent game that I fully played out), but are cities supposed to be fairly impotent? Puts a higher focus on units for defense, but I am just completely unscared of cities and my own cities barely scratch units even with a decently high defensive value (higher than the base CB of the unit it attacks). Add in pillage healing and a city can struggle to clear even a single marauding unit. I could see that happen in base game if it was something like Great War Infantry with Cover promotions, but far too many of my units (aka, not just ones that had complete the Drill line) were only taking 10 damage from cities. City range is obviously handled differently in VP, so if there was a whole discussion about the strength of city attacks as well I'd appreciate if somebody is willing to catch me up.
 
Side question, maybe related to a particular version I played (12/15 was my most recent game that I fully played out), but are cities supposed to be fairly impotent? Puts a higher focus on units for defense, but I am just completely unscared of cities and my own cities barely scratch units even with a decently high defensive value (higher than the base CB of the unit it attacks). Add in pillage healing and a city can struggle to clear even a single marauding unit. I could see that happen in base game if it was something like Great War Infantry with Cover promotions, but far too many of my units (aka, not just ones that had complete the Drill line) were only taking 10 damage from cities. City range is obviously handled differently in VP, so if there was a whole discussion about the strength of city attacks as well I'd appreciate if somebody is willing to catch me up.
I personally like the state of cities now, sure they are not as damaging as they once where, but they are much more resilient, city whit wall usually needs catapults, whit castle needs trebuchets, since cities siege takes on average much longer makes sense to lower the damage overall and the damage numbers are still fair if you garrison a good strength unit.
 
Naval nerf almost seems related to it being so hard to teach the AI how to ocean. Maybe I've just gotten unlucky in the few games I've put in so far. Just feels like an increasingly segregated portion of the game.

Swapping Range (and Indirect Fire, which now requires Range to matter) with Logistics makes a certain amount of sense to me. Cities that a navy can capture (melee ships) can be hit with 1 range. Units, particularly those with range, can easily hide a tile away from the coastline (granted, ships with enough movement can fire and then leave). Anti-unit promotion navy can, theoretically, help clear a beachhead for an army to land at. VP's AI being better at spamming units make it seem that there's a need to be able to clear out units around a city if you don't want it instantly recaptured.

Either way, it does make those one ocean tile coastal cities even easier to defend/harder to assault.

I think this description is on point... I've attempted to address the underlying issue here that (*I think*) G is focused on in my own modding: but I've focused on finding a fix through addition (for the most part) rather than by subtraction.

Starting from previous VP state, prior to this patch, some alternatives to range reduction that might have similar effect to latest naval change, w/o flattening viable tactical options (granted I'm biased, having already spent several hours implementing some of these to my tastes):
- limit +range promo, removing/replacing it for most naval ranged (promo'd frigate navy with 2 range should never fight galleass navy w/ 1-range.. similarly promo'd cruisers w/ 3 range should never fight frigates w/ 1 range.. these 'battles' are as much fun as hitting the 'delete unit' button)
- limit naval movement bonuses.. obsolete GL before cruisers are available (like in every other civ game).. limit other bonuses to +movement in ocean, but not coastal tiles
- move up 'minefield' naval movement penalty.. currently it comes too late and is too expensive to "change the tide" of naval situation in most games (ie if a player intends to focus naval, it'll usually already be done by the time minefield is available)
- add "withering fire" effect to naval ranged.. make naval ranged chase their targets and use up their movement, so that AI can see them when they start their turn
 
Hm - I like most of these changes!

I do say, though - I don't understand the nerf to early specialists. I've never found them problematic as an opener - it's later specialists that offer issues. I'm thinking they could be left alone early on, and then there's a bump of food starting at the Renaissance/Modern Eras; the early yields are just fine, too - and while we can still make the late-game focus more on specialists, it would still be nice to see a little more tiles being used in the late game (which is provided by the increased food, I know - I just don't think it needs to be an Ancient Era thing).
 
No way, venice needs to be able to buy units especially late game, stamping out a unit every turn doesn't compare with many cities. Apparently the gold bloat was reduced, please make units ratios comparable to buildings..
Wasn’t it up until now like 2:1?
Anyway, Venice will get 2 more TRs with EIC.
 
I think this description is on point... I've attempted to address the underlying issue here that (*I think*) G is focused on in my own modding: but I've focused on finding a fix through addition (for the most part) rather than by subtraction.
- limit naval movement bonuses.. obsolete GL before cruisers are available (like in every other civ game).. limit other bonuses to +movement in ocean, but not coastal tiles
That special flake venice is entirely about diplomatic victory and trade therefore speed nerf is also biased against it as you'd like to be able to try get to city-states defense.
 
Maybe it's only happening on my system but the non-EUI Vox Populi seems glitched as right now, with the city production button being unclickable. Reinstalled the game from scratch and still can't get the mod to work.
 
That special flake venice is entirely about diplomatic victory and trade therefore speed nerf is also biased against it as you'd like to be able to try get to city-states defense.

Great thought; hadn't considered this necessarily. I assume you play on continents+ often (or something similar), like I do? Not all map scripts put CS on coast necessarily, but your point is nonetheless valid. The easy answer would maybe be to then give venice a UA to compensate (in AI hands from what i've seen, the Dandolo snowflake could use all the help it can get). I'm not sure if I like this "solution", though.

My point ultimately is that -1 range on naval is effectively equivalent to -1 (or -2) movement, albeit with the former further restricting a ship's ability to fight coastal targets than the latter. My original suggestion should have been a little more precise... its not movement bonus on all naval necessarily; +movement (combined with +range) on attack-and-move ranged creates the "problem" at sea imo
 
I'd be entirely okay with ai just being able to have major sight buff even if it means it will have OP bombers, or/and you could make aluminum more affordable and buff fighter scout range with vanilla giving +6 visibility on turn end.
 
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I'd be entirely okay with ai just being able to have major sight buff even if it means it will have OP bombers, or/and you could make aluminum more affordable and buff fighter scout range with vanilla giving +6 visibility on turn end.

I would probably prefer +sight instead of all naval at 1 range, if this were the option... I worry though that too much +sight will again restrict/eliminate gameplay options... depending how +sight is implemented, it *could* severely restrict the option to sneak attack.. in human vs human this variable is difference between win/loss often, and I think the VP objective generally is to try to avoid/minimize asymmetrical AI bonuses
 
That special flake venice is entirely about diplomatic victory and trade therefore speed nerf is also biased against it as you'd like to be able to try get to city-states defense.
Authority warmonger venice is scary as hell! IDK what you're talking about.
 
Authority warmonger venice is scary as hell! IDK what you're talking about.
I suggested that problems at sea would be better dealt with by nerfing naval movement instead of attack range... on some maps such a nerf would have material effect on venice's ability to respond quickly when its core interests are threatened; I've since narrowed my suggestion slightly
 
I suggested that problems at sea would be better dealt with by nerfing naval movement instead of attack range... on some maps such a nerf would have material effect on venice's ability to respond quickly when its core interests are threatened; I've since narrowed my suggestion slightly

Hitting movement means that you end up with navies that take forever to get around. Hitting range means that navies get places more quickly, but have to get very close for combat. Since oceans are so open, have damage range be the deciding factor means that maneuvering and formations are more important. 3+ range at sea is easy mode and completely negates melee ships.
 
Hitting movement means that you end up with navies that take forever to get around. Hitting range means that navies get places more quickly, but have to get very close for combat. Since oceans are so open, have damage range be the deciding factor means that maneuvering and formations are more important. 3+ range at sea is easy mode and completely negates melee ships.

And then you're pretty much fighting for nothing as it no way you can impact land. Perhaps a scout vessel to replace carrier early game?
 
Maybe it's only happening on my system but the non-EUI Vox Populi seems glitched as right now, with the city production button being unclickable. Reinstalled the game from scratch and still can't get the mod to work.

Same here
 
Hitting movement means that you end up with navies that take forever to get around. Hitting range means that navies get places more quickly, but have to get very close for combat. Since oceans are so open, have damage range be the deciding factor means that maneuvering and formations are more important. 3+ range at sea is easy mode and completely negates melee ships.
The concern is land bombardment. With 3 range artillery, any coastal city is much harder to attack and clear a beachhead with. Artillery can now sit 2 tiles inland and be unreachable.

Navy just became its own game with this change, disconnected; they can’t trade blows with a modern land army
 
Could the carrier be a line of ship, perhaps? It obviously wouldn't get aircraft until late game, but it could potentially be the "deep inland bombard" line of ships.
 
Before :
+ Time and domination always possible.
+ With probability 25% nothing more is possible.
+ With probability 25%, science is possible.
+ With probability 25%, culture is possible.
+ With probability 25%, diplomacy is possible.

Now :
+ Time and domination always possible.
+ With probability 33%, science is possible.
+ With probability 33%, culture is possible.
+ With probability 33%, diplomacy is possible.

Can "Time" be turned off with random victories enabled? I hate the game ending abruptly and going to the score-leader.
 
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