New Beta Version - March 2nd (3-2)

[DeAnno]

The war against india in the Renaissance era was not that hard, for some reason he had no units but garrisons stationed to defend his mainland cities while the rest of his army are stationed in a big islanseparated by a 1-tile sea housing 6 more cities of his,

The same thing happened with me in one war in my recent game. Carthage was split between a mainland and a nearby overseas colony, each having about 5-6 cities, and when I declared war she was caught with much of her army in the colony or moving through the ocean. I think maybe the AI has a tendency to overcommit its armies in service of offensive posturing, and then sometimes if its land isn't connected they're too far away to help defend.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

A possible counterpoint game to my statements before, wonderful, I'm glad you ran such a game

Do you have any saved games of this I could look at? (with your modmod list please). Any and all saves I'll take, I want to dig in and try to understand your tourism production for such a game.

Also check me, is 443 "fast" in an epic game? That seems pretty quick to me.

I attached a screenshot of my modlist and a copressed file containing both the initial autosave and the final save after winning the game, i have 5 previous autosaves if you want them i would be glad to help.
Note: you might see pontoon bridges used without the pontoon bridges mod because i merged Enginseer pontoon bridges mod with PAD new beliefs mod, they load as one mod but do the function of both but it should not really affect loading the save as long as you have the new beliefs mod loaded.

EDIT: about Epic speed, everything is 1.5 slower; techs, buildings, policies, units, religion cost 1.5X more so as a general rule of thumb 100 turns of standard speed equal 150 of epic speed .... that puts my victory at around turn 300 standard.
i would not call it a fast one since i did manage to achieve CV way earlier in previous games with Egypt/Brazil but it's not too late either; it's an atomic era win before anyone managed to get to modern so that's something.

 

[Stalker0]

I attached a screenshot of my modlist and a copressed file containing both the initial autosave and the final save after winning the game, i have 5 previous autosaves if you want them i would be glad to help.
Note: you might see pontoon bridges used without the pontoon bridges mod because i merged Enginseer pontoon bridges mod with PAD new beliefs mod, they load as one mod but do the function of both but it should not really affect loading the save as long as you have the new beliefs mod loaded.

EDIT: about Epic speed, everything is 1.5 slower; techs, buildings, policies, units, religion cost 1.5X more so as a general rule of thumb 100 turns of standard speed equal 150 of epic speed .... that puts my victory at around turn 300 standard.
i would not call it a fast one since i did manage to achieve CV way earlier in previous games with Egypt/Brazil but it's not too late either; it's an atomic era win before anyone managed to get to modern so that's something.

Turn 300 on Standard Speed is actually really fast in my experience! And yes I'll take your autosaves, give me everything, muhaha

 

[DeAnno]

Just checked, my recent Deity culture win was T369.

I think Epic in practice is a little faster than 1.5x Standard benchmarks though, if only because workers and other units move relatively faster. Also I think the combat instant yields scale with gamespeed? Not sure about that.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I attached a screenshot of my modlist and a copressed file containing both the initial autosave and the final save after winning the game, i have 5 previous autosaves if you want them i would be glad to help.
Note: you might see pontoon bridges used without the pontoon bridges mod because i merged Enginseer pontoon bridges mod with PAD new beliefs mod, they load as one mod but do the function of both but it should not really affect loading the save as long as you have the new beliefs mod loaded.

EDIT: about Epic speed, everything is 1.5 slower; techs, buildings, policies, units, religion cost 1.5X more so as a general rule of thumb 100 turns of standard speed equal 150 of epic speed .... that puts my victory at around turn 300 standard.
i would not call it a fast one since i did manage to achieve CV way earlier in previous games with Egypt/Brazil but it's not too late either; it's an atomic era win before anyone managed to get to modern so that's something.

CV at 300 turns standard would be unbelievably quick in comparison to where SV / DV normally wind up (350-400 turns). I'm pretty sure you're exclusively playing Authority games; play a tall (6 cities or less, non-pangea map) peaceful game with standard settings and a non-traditional civ (no Arabia/Brazil/Egypt, maybe play something like Carthage/India/Dutch, as long as you go Artistry with no Authority/Imperialism/Autocracy), and tell me if you find similar results in consistently cruising to early victories on Emperor+ difficulties. I'm genuinely interested, because it seems counterintuitive to have CV be way less efficient for tall-peaceful defensive styles in comparison to widemonger.

Just noting: I do not wish for wide CV to become something unobtainable based off of a civ having a couple extra cities -- Gazebo somewhat addressed this a while ago with the 5% tech/policy cost for each owned non-puppet cities -- but it defeats the purpose of playing tall-peaceful if wide is much more proficient in consistently achieving CV.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Just checked, my recent Deity culture win was T369.

I think Epic in practice is a little faster than 1.5x Standard benchmarks though, if only because workers and other units move relatively faster. Also I think the combat instant yields scale with gamespeed? Not sure about that.

Yes, instant yields from all sources are multiplied by 1.5X too; what i like about epic is it gives more time for micromanagement and obviously for war which i tried to minimize by limiting conquests to early game only.

CV at 300 turns standard would be unbelievably quick in comparison to where SV / DV normally wind up (350-400 turns). I'm pretty sure you're exclusively playing Authority games; play a tall (6 cities or less, non-pangea map) peaceful game with standard settings and a non-traditional civ (no Arabia/Brazil/Egypt, maybe play something like Carthage/India/Dutch, as long as you go Artistry with no Authority/Imperialism/Autocracy), and tell me if you find similar results in consistently cruising to early victories on Emperor+ difficulties. I'm genuinely interested, because it seems counterintuitive to have CV be way less efficient for tall-peaceful defensive styles in comparison to widemonger.

Just noting: I do not wish for wide CV to become something unobtainable based off of a civ having a couple extra cities -- Gazebo somewhat addressed this a while ago with the 5% tech/policy cost for each owned non-puppet cities -- but it defeats the purpose of playing tall-peaceful if wide is much more proficient in consistently achieving CV.

Playing Authority which have nothing to do directly with boosting tourism or GP generation actually makes my point stands even stronger that CV is the easiest and the earliest achievable victory condition after domination and .... it simply lays a good foundation for an empire capable of achieving any victory condition way better than either Tradition or the progress.

I'm not playing a Superwide Authority; in fact i had a capital +5 or 6 satellites and the rest were conquered puppets.

I think we actually have had the discussion about "peaceful" before, conquering the world is one thing and obtaining a vassal or securing your borders is another.

I will start another game as an non CV focused civ without MUC or unique CS to avoid any source of yield inflation and post the results but i do not understand what point are you trying to make by by this:

as long as you go Artistry with no Authority/Imperialism/Autocracy),

This is actually the other point i'm trying to prove, Authority/Artistry achieves CV easier without shooting itself in the leg .... The no Autocracy/Imperialism feels like asking someone to achieve Diplo victory without statecraft/freedom or SV without rationalism/Order which is not what we are discussing here which is CV and how unreliant it is on GM or TGOG and without a CV focused civ.

 

[Jiggly]

Notes and observations from a few Diety normal speed games from this patch:

1) Almost guaranteed to get either Pyramids or Stonehenge if I go directly for them. Thats a new thing- normally it was exceedingly difficult. Personally I like being able to get some early great wonders on Diety for a change but not sure what it does for balance.

2) AI's now give between 2-4 gold for embassies, up from 1-2 but still accepts 1-2 gold from you.

3) Selling resources, especially Horses is insanely lucrative and doesn't always seem tied to how the AI should actually value them.

4) AI seems to buy my luxury resources for more then I pay for equivalent resources from them

5) If I get ahead technologically I can perpetually sell all friendly AI's each of my new techs for huge sums of money for a long time after

5) Between all these different type of excellent trade deals, I have been rolling in money for multiple games

6) Been getting offers from AI in which they cant accept without me evening it out for them even tho they came to me with the offer

7) Combat and strategic AI has been surprisingly effective. Well done

8) Religious Pressure feels out of wack. I have an island off the main land with like 5 of my own cities, all converted to my religion and yet the pressure from a mainland civ's religion is dominating my island. I observed this weird pressure imbalance in multiple games.

9) Religious pressure on mainland also seems stacked against you- hard to hold off religious pressure even with orthodoxy and two faith buildings

10) AI needs to prioritize repairing Citadels once they are pillaged

11) AI needs to make sure they always keep units on Citadel. It's too easy to time a moment when no unit is standing on it to declare war and just pillage it first thing.

In any case, great update as always.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

I just don't understand why deos the AI think it's a good idea to plant a city like Toledo in a place like this literally between my cities with no way they would be able to defend it (maybe you can put an argument for Cordoba but Toledo feels like it's literally handing me a free city).

Spoiler :

 

[Rafs]

Cordoba isn't so bad imho with the hills and the rivers covering it (is cordoba itself on a hill?), but Toledo is pretty reckless yes.

 

[ilteroi]

I just don't understand why deos the AI think it's a good idea to plant a city like Toledo in a place like this literally between my cities with no way they would be able to defend it (maybe you can put an argument for Cordoba but Toledo feels like it's literally handing me a free city).

Spoiler :

View attachment 592949

look at all those juicy resources! the real problem is that they don't have an army next to aarhus.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

look at all those juicy resources! the real problem is that they don't have an army next to aarhus.

I would not settle this city tbh, one Iron tile within the first ring, Sheep/Silver on hills and lead on flat desert within the 2nd ring, fish and Sulphur (from EMR modmod) within 3rd ring competing with 2 adjacent cities is not a city i would settle anytime.

 

[Balint2]

Not sure this has anything to do with the current version but anyways: After Pocatello Dwed me for the third time and killed my 2 CS allies I took one of his cities and now the whole world thinks my warmongering is "an existential threat/ will end the world in fire" (I literally never started a war a single time+ have
liberated multiple cities) , including the Dutch, who killed city states and wiped out Japan almost wholly. (There is also Rome in the game, who killed Attila, has 18 cities, vassalized Carthage but np with that)

What??? How does this work? Any idea?

(Immortal dif, ~1856AD)

Edit: they are getting +60% anti warmonger fervor too... For 1 city which I took defensively?

 

[Balint2]

Notes and observations from a few Diety normal speed games from this patch:

1) Almost guaranteed to get either Pyramids or Stonehenge if I go directly for them. Thats a new thing- normally it was exceedingly difficult. Personally I like being able to get some early great wonders on Diety for a change but not sure what it does for balance.

2) AI's now give between 2-4 gold for embassies, up from 1-2 but still accepts 1-2 gold from you.

3) Selling resources, especially Horses is insanely lucrative and doesn't always seem tied to how the AI should actually value them.

4) AI seems to buy my luxury resources for more then I pay for equivalent resources from them

5) If I get ahead technologically I can perpetually sell all friendly AI's each of my new techs for huge sums of money for a long time after

5) Between all these different type of excellent trade deals, I have been rolling in money for multiple games

6) Been getting offers from AI in which they cant accept without me evening it out for them even tho they came to me with the offer

7) Combat and strategic AI has been surprisingly effective. Well done

8) Religious Pressure feels out of wack. I have an island off the main land with like 5 of my own cities, all converted to my religion and yet the pressure from a mainland civ's religion is dominating my island. I observed this weird pressure imbalance in multiple games.

9) Religious pressure on mainland also seems stacked against you- hard to hold off religious pressure even with orthodoxy and two faith buildings

10) AI needs to prioritize repairing Citadels once they are pillaged

11) AI needs to make sure they always keep units on Citadel. It's too easy to time a moment when no unit is standing on it to declare war and just pillage it first thing.

In any case, great update as always.

Just want to reinforce that the religious pressure is just surreal imo. Idk how that works 4 the AI. Why should it even get bonuses to pressure?

Also idk why tech trading enabled is the standard. I dont want to overly go into it, but feels weird imo.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Also idk why tech trading enabled is the standard. I dont want to overly go into it, but feels weird imo.

I agree; my standard settings over the last year or so has consisted of tech trading/brokering off. Using Research Agreements feels much more organic, and there's more consistency with less to exploit.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree; my standard settings over the last year or so has consisted of tech trading/brokering off. Using Research Agreements feels much more organic, and there's more consistency with less to exploit.

Damn, I actually haven't used Research agreements in years. How much science do they actually provide nowadays?

 

[LifeOfBrian]

I too haven't used RAs or tech trading in forever. My settings are quite different from default settings, i.e. I play with no ancient ruins, no events, no tech trading and no RAs.

 

[dailyminerals]

Not sure this has anything to do with the current version but anyways: After Pocatello Dwed me for the third time and killed my 2 CS allies I took one of his cities and now the whole world thinks my warmongering is "an existential threat/ will end the world in fire" (I literally never started a war a single time+ have
liberated multiple cities) , including the Dutch, who killed city states and wiped out Japan almost wholly. (There is also Rome in the game, who killed Attila, has 18 cities, vassalized Carthage but np with that)

What??? How does this work? Any idea?

(Immortal dif, ~1856AD)

Edit: they are getting +60% anti warmonger fervor too... For 1 city which I took defensively?

I do wish there was a way for the warmongering penalty to be less opaque/obfuscated about when and how it'll be applied. I wish it would just flat out tell you the kind of penalty you would incur by taking a given city. I don't care if it would be somehow exploitable by the people that try to min-max Deity runs. I'm just tired of there being too little communication about just why Warmonger behaves the way it does. Just give me something more than the current system of telling you nothing before the whole world explodes with blind rage in your face. The AI will never be at a place where you can intuit how it will feel. Some things just need to be stated outright.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

So .... Enrico is trying to build a wonder ..... in his puppet.

Spoiler Not a good idea, bro. :

 

[DukeBrani]

Not sure this has anything to do with the current version but anyways: After Pocatello Dwed me for the third time and killed my 2 CS allies I took one of his cities and now the whole world thinks my warmongering is "an existential threat/ will end the world in fire" (I literally never started a war a single time+ have
liberated multiple cities) , including the Dutch, who killed city states and wiped out Japan almost wholly. (There is also Rome in the game, who killed Attila, has 18 cities, vassalized Carthage but np with that)

What??? How does this work? Any idea?

(Immortal dif, ~1856AD)

Edit: they are getting +60% anti warmonger fervor too... For 1 city which I took defensively?

I believe this was due to a bug that @Recursive fixed yesterday/today

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/diplomacy-ai-development.655040/page-43

 

[Recursive]

I do wish there was a way for the warmongering penalty to be less opaque/obfuscated about when and how it'll be applied. I wish it would just flat out tell you the kind of penalty you would incur by taking a given city. I don't care if it would be somehow exploitable by the people that try to min-max Deity runs. I'm just tired of there being too little communication about just why Warmonger behaves the way it does. Just give me something more than the current system of telling you nothing before the whole world explodes with blind rage in your face. The AI will never be at a place where you can intuit how it will feel. Some things just need to be stated outright.

I believe all of these various issues, including the bugs, inconsistent behavior, excessive penalties, and excessive combat bonuses, should now be fixed.

Should display how much the AI will care properly now in the tooltip when you mouse over a city.