"New labour - Puting the national back into socialism"

Hamlet

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Was what I saw on a sticker on a bus seat the other day.

Now, is this true, or is it merely over-hyped hard left propoganda?

Personally, I think it's a very nasty, insult, that could only have been fielded by people who have lost all their political credibility.

Calling a group's policies bad is one thing, but comparing them to Nazis is a tad, ermmm, sickening.

Discuss.

P.S, the group's website is www.direct-action.org.uk
 
The misguided lunatic ravings of a bunch of moronic children, and mentally disturbed sociopaths. They have no political credibility, nor did they ever. All that is presented by them and their ilk is a rag tag collection of waffle and rhetoric.

The usual meaningless, outdated crap that we expect from the loony left.
 
Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
The misguided lunatic ravings of a bunch of moronic children, and mentally disturbed sociopaths. They have no political credibility, nor did they ever. All that is presented by them and their ilk is a rag tag collection of waffle and rhetoric.

The usual meaningless, outdated crap that we expect from the loony left.

Sounds distinctly like a Black Adder quote;)

To those of you unfamiliar with the series of Rowan Atkinson, you will figure what I mean after a couple of episodes
 
The misguided lunatic ravings of a bunch of moronic children, and mentally disturbed sociopaths. They have no political credibility, nor did they ever. All that is presented by them and their ilk is a rag tag collection of waffle and rhetoric.

No Simon, you couldn't be more wrong. Britain is supposed to be a democracy, correct me if i'm wrong but is a democracy not about what the people think?

The usual meaningless, outdated crap that we expect from the loony left

You are aware that the left hold the opinion that the right is a bunbh of greedy power crazed money obsessed maniacs? For someone who has lectured me and many others before on the 'error of their ways' i'm quite suprised at your use of childish insults (and yes I am still annoyed at you branding me a 'misguided child' on several occasions)

The sticker makes an important point, Labour is worryingly nationalistic in it's treatment of asylum seakers and most ceartinally the leadership has abonded it's traditional socialist roots in favour of a more 'nationalistic' approach. whilst not applying to the Labour back benchers, I feel that the sticker makes a good point about the routes the Labour leadership has choosen to follow.
 
Originally posted by ComradeDavo


No Simon, you couldn't be more wrong. Britain is supposed to be a democracy, correct me if i'm wrong but is a democracy not about what the people think?

You are aware that the left hold the opinion that the right is a bunbh of greedy power crazed money obsessed maniacs? For someone who has lectured me and many others before on the 'error of their ways' i'm quite suprised at your use of childish insults (and yes I am still annoyed at you branding me a 'misguided child' on several occasions)

The sticker makes an important point, Labour is worryingly nationalistic in it's treatment of asylum seakers and most ceartinally the leadership has abonded it's traditional socialist roots in favour of a more 'nationalistic' approach. whilst not applying to the Labour back benchers, I feel that the sticker makes a good point about the routes the Labour leadership has choosen to follow.


Democracy? Nonsense! It is an absolute monarchy!:D

Being a democracy doesn't mean foolishness, and acting like a guttersnipe should not go unchallenged. Democracy means that there should be an open forum for ideas, but it extends in both directions.
Most importantly, though, any thinking person can tell tripe when they see it, and this pure, bloody, still warm viscera.

The point, and I use that term very tentatively, is that they are equating the Blair Labour government with National Socialism, ie Nazism.
It is tendancy of some brainless gorms from the loony left to label anything they don't agree with as "fascist", or "nazi", but it deserves as much creedence as the political mutterings and moanings of Rick and Neil from "The Young Ones":) These cretins do not have a scintilla of an iota of a shade of any semblance of a real conception of Nazism and Fascism. They are rightly among the most reviled epithets that can be thrown at individuals and political groups, and the casual abuse of them, with all the involved history and implications, is what gets my goat.
Aye, and my mongoose too.
It would get my parrot, but it is dead, and has ceased to be.;)

The labels I use are apt descriptions of the screwed up mental state, beliefs and worldview of these individuals. They are not insults. I have far better, much more vivid and imaginative insults and barbs in my armoury, but these "people" are not worth them.;) Sometimes, the truth must be given in its basest form, and that involves in straying from the discourse of the genteel.

I am aware of the thinking of the left on these matters; it matters not a whit. The difference between their ravings and my well structured melodious argument is that I am right. Let me expand on this point.
They do not call them the loony left for nothing. The message of this sticker is but one example of the extremist nonsense they spout which has no basis in reality. This is not to say this is true of everyone on the left side of the political spectrum, only these ne'erdowells and their verminous insane ilk:D :p

Sometimes, a spade needs to be called a bloody shovel.

As to the rather weak justification for the sticker, that is not what they meant and we all know it. Labour has moved to the centre, just as the ALP has here, for their political survival. This was something happening for a long time, even before the changes to the Party constitution.
This does not automatically mean "nationalism", nor can I see what is so evil or worrying about "nationalism". There have been Labour and left governments all around the world who have been far more "nationalist", racist and the like than the Blair government. Just because a government is left or communist enough for your taste doesn't mean they are Nazis.
The sticker was not about asylum seeker policies, nor the direction of Labour; it was directly calling the government a Nazi regime.
This is false, it is offensive intellectually, it is laughable, and it demeans the losses of some many to the vile Nazi regime.

And it is done in a medium where those responsible conveniently do not have to back up their outlandish argument. There is nothing of any merit in their little website either, incidentally, not even a new fantasy or conspiracy theory to make my time there worthwhile:(

As to the socialist nature of Labour/Labor Parties, and the attitudes, beliefs and revolutionary potential of the Western proletariat, that is a matter for another day.

In conclusion, the employment of harsh language towards these individuals is justified by the utter nonsensical nature of their arguments and beliefs, and perhaps even more so by their ignorant bandying about of labels such as "National Socialist", "Nazi" and "fascist".

And, tovarisch, you are a misguided child. :) You are a child under the law, and your views are misguided. Simple. Doesn't make you a bad person, unless you start spouting the madness of this anarcho-syndicalist mob. It takes different amounts of time for different people to find their path to the truth.

PS: To alhailindia, it is not a quote from Mr. B, but one's style has been moulded by many influences, and Curtis/Elton is one of them, albeit to a lesser degree than Fry, Wilde and Stalin ;)
 
Originally posted by ComradeDavo
You are aware that the left hold the opinion that the right is a bunbh of greedy power crazed money obsessed maniacs?

Yeah, we all know how modest Josef Stalin, Vladmir Lenin, Yuri Andropov, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, Ho Chi Minh, and Fidel Castro were.

Tell me, though...why does every Communist say that the Soviet Union, North Korea, etc... were not "true Communism" when you people were 100% behind the Russians for 70 years?
 
ok Simon, I see what you mean, I disagree on several points, fair do's:goodjob: And I did say Britain is 'supposed to be a democracy', in reference to the usual line Tony Blair gives for justifying....well justifying just about everything to be honest!

Mr.rmsharpe - I feel that you missed my point somewhat. If you had continued reading you would have discovered how I found these insults to be pointless and childish.

Tell me, though...why does every Communist say that the Soviet Union, North Korea, etc... were not "true Communism" when you people were 100% behind the Russians for 70 years?

I'm the same age as you...how the hell could I have been behind them for 70 years? Go to this thread in the world history section:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16371
(you yourself have posted on this thread)
Now read polymath's post, it's the 6th one (so the 5th reply).
it says:
If the Communist Russians had managed to take over Europe, for example, the card-carrying communists in the UK would have been one of the first groups to be lined up against the wall. Why? Because they espoused true Communism, and this was the last thing on the minds of the Russian government.
I fall into this catorgary, as do many others. edit:although i do not yet carry a card:crazyeyes
 
Originally posted by ComradeDavo
I fall into this catorgary, as do many others. edit:although i do not yet carry a card:crazyeyes

Excuse me, tovarisch, would you mind holding this card here over your heart for us. Spasibo, tovarisch Western communist, that makes things a lot easier for the firing squad here. :D :sniper:
 
Originally posted by ComradeDavo
I'm the same age as you...how the hell could I have been behind them for 70 years?

You are a Communist, correct? I'm just expecting you to know the history of your ideology, and can interpret for me the pro and then after the collapse, anti-Soviet rhetoric of the Communist Party.
 
Not another one of those Communist/anti-Communist debates! ;)

I agree that foreign communists were usually shot by the Russian communists. This happened mostly because although they supported communism, they would still wanted to retain some degree of freedom, while the Soviet Communist Party wanted to control ALL of the communist movements around the world. Otherwise how else could the World Revolution occur? :D

Comrade Davo might support the communist ideals, but I doubt he would want to be told what to do from Moscow!

Btw, does the communist party still exist in Britain? It does not seem to be very active in the elections, if it does exist!

It seems that the relatively popular anti-capitalist movements are more anarchist than communist. At my university, the OHP projectors are always hijacked before lectures by the anti-capitalist group, advocating action against the 'filthy capitalists'!
 
Originally posted by sgrig
At my university, the OHP projectors are always hijacked before lectures by the anti-capitalist group, advocating action against the 'filthy capitalists'!

Ah!, A common problem, and a great annoyance. The solution for this kind of pest infestation is gentle persuasion: Kick down their doors at 0330 in the morning along with a gang of plain clothed psychiatrists from the Committee of State Security, and 'discuss' the matter with them over torture and biscuits.

By 'discuss' I mean take them down to the local power station, and hook up electrical wires straight from the generator to their wobbly parts. Never fails to bring a matter to a successful conclusion, although the other party does usually die of massive genital burns, or massive cranial haemorrages caused by a nine millimetre bullet...:D :lol:


;)

Ah, the idealism of youth! 'Tis so wondrous...:)
 
Originally posted by rmsharpe
Tell me, though...why does every Communist say that the Soviet Union, North Korea, etc... were not "true Communism" when you people were 100% behind the Russians for 70 years?
I think there was mass, and often willful ignorance of the Soviet situation and what they were doing. I think many of them felt if they had to choose between the West & the East based on that misinformation would choose the West. I think if they were actually 100% behind it they would have been spies & sabateurs instead of just nuisances. Perhaps many of them thought they could actually do Communism correctly (HA!), and the Soviets would help pay for it.

I suggest any of todays Socialists try to talk to someone who lived under Soviet-style Communism to better understand the actual effects of the system. My father and his family lived in East Germany near Berlin, and there are fascinating stories to hear about the dangers of totalitarianism.

Originally posted by sgrig
It seems that the relatively popular anti-capitalist movements are more anarchist than communist. At my university, the OHP projectors are always hijacked before lectures by the anti-capitalist group, advocating action against the 'filthy capitalists'!
Like all true Communists, they start with stealing and go from there. :rolleyes:
 
One day people will wake up and see that communism seemed
like a great idea for delusional peasants in the early 1900's,

But for a nation like the UK, to adopt any form of radical govt is utter fantasy.

We have had a civil war already, and have defended our democracy many times.
The idea of an advanced society like Britian's giving in and
devolving into some communal stalinist mess is laughable.

Any radicals that harbour dreams of some coup or revolution in
the UK had better lay off the weed or cider.

Also,
Those morons who assault civilisation every may day or any G7 summit make me sick.

Leave us alone, you militant maniacs!

:mad:
 
It depends on how you look at it i suppose, but there is no idea in attacking all of communism. Also, confusing Communism with Stalinism is something people do too often. The Soviet Union was NEVER a communist state. It was a dictatorship based on controlling people's thouhgts. Communsim is about brothership, equal rights and free thinking.

There are lots of 'leftist' gropus who prefer violence in achieving its goals. That is stupidity, violence and aggresion only comes back to you. Peaceful demonstrations are entirely okay.

That's all on my mind right now.
:(
 
Holy crap that British Communist site is scary! Some quotes:

"We insist on open ideological struggle in order to fight out the correct way forward for our class."

"The liberation of humanity can only be achieved through world communism."

"The working class in Britain needs to strike as a fist."

"Socialism will only succeed through working class revolution and the replacement of the dictatorship of the capitalists with the dictatorship of the working class."

"We support the right of nations to self-determination."

"Communists are the champions of the oppressed."

"No solution to the world's problems can be found within capitalism."

"contributes regularly to the Party's funds"

If you notice any major hypocracy, you are not alone :D
 
Communism is more a view of history and a prediction for a the future, then a system of government. All Marx ever said was that Socialism will eventually come through an international rebellion against the ruling class. He said the revolution would be a) spontanious (when people bring a gun to work and shoot their boss, this is what he is refering to) (b) violent and c) international. I can not stress enough that Marx said Communism had to be International, Violent Revolution. In 1848 their was something like it in Europe (The Communist Manifesto had been written as a pamphlet for Belgian Dockworkers [who were the first union to become international]). Didn't really work out because, well, governements had no problem with killing a few thousand of their own citizens. Marx Never really talked about how to run a communist government. So most people just came up with their own Ideas, like "Socialism in one country" by Stalin, or dynastic governments in Korea. So much of Marx's writting is misunderstood. If any of you are interested the Communist Manifesto is a very short read. I'm not going to even touch Das Kapital though:).
 
Originally posted by ComradeDavo
No Simon, you couldn't be more wrong. Britain is supposed to be a democracy, correct me if i'm wrong but is a democracy not about what the people think?

But no one cares what the looney left thinks, and haven't since the mid 80's.

Originally posted by ComradeDavo
The sticker makes an important point, Labour is worryingly nationalistic

What piffle. You're doing exaclty what Simon outlined: calling everything you don't agree with 'nationalistic' or 'fascist'.

I grew out of all that when I was about 14. Grow up, please.

Originally posted by ComradeDavo
most ceartinally the leadership has abonded it's traditional socialist roots in favour of a more 'nationalistic' approach.

The leadership has moved away from a diastorous, democratic socialist model that was wholly outmoted to a workable, social democratic model.

The looney left, that would have Labour back in the elctoral gutter, a la 1983 can't stand that, though.

Originally posted by ComradeDavo
I feel that the sticker makes a good point about the routes the Labour leadership has choosen to follow.

I think it's abominable. Calling anybody a Nazi without good reason is sick.
 
The sticker makes an important point, Labour is worryingly nationalistic
What do you mean nationalistic. I can't think of one thing that Labour has done that is nationalistic (devolution is nationalistic for the Scots and the Welsh but not for the English). In fact England has a rubbish National Health Service, a disaster of a National Rail System, and don't get we started of the National Education system. I am not saying all of those were Labours' fault but they are examples of the state of this nation.
Britain is supposed to be a democracy, correct me if i'm wrong but is a democracy not about what the people think?
I will correct you. Democracy is not about what the people think it is about the ability of the people to act on those thoughts. Democracy is about the people be able to say that a government is failing and they want a change. Democracy is the power of the people not what they are thinking.
 
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