New SG - Monarch, Standard Settings, Continents, Large Map

Sorry, I got delayed. Will have the turns posted tomorrow morning. I will complete Zeus' statue and contemplate our next steps. (Optics so we can get in contact with potential AI runaways? Civil service?)
 
I would like to make contact with other AI's so am tempted by the Optics Bee line but as you say Civil Service is another viable choice so leave it to you to pick.

Ralph
 
This turnset was very quiet. Not much that happened:

(1) Courthouse done, start on granary in Hadru. Settle Ravenna:

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(IT) Hammurabi wants Literature for monotheism.

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I gently told him to get lost. He won't trade Maths right now, but eventually we can get it.

(3) Nada

(4) Nada

(5)

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Statue of Zeus done -> Heroic Epic. Complete Courthouse in Carthage and start Library. Great general born in a far away land. Missed the pic.

(6) The unmet civs are all the most cultured.

MonarchSG24Medium.jpg


Great Library complete

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(7)

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Currency in. Allows Markets. Tentatively select Metal Casting. I debated the research path for a while. The optics route has a lot going for it. If I had seen the teams posts concurring I would have selected it. I went with Metal Casting because we get half price forges and the extra production will be helpful and because I believe the Colossus is still available. We will hopefully be able to trade for Maths soon so I did not go that way.



(8) Rome completes Work boat, starts Forum. Neapolis starts Lighthouse as it will need this food to grow.

(9) Great Prophet born far away.

(10) Nada. Our science has gone up 10%. We are on a backwards island and being our expanded by our neighbors. After we are done some infrastructure, we should consider. Pericles has Feudalism already. But if he doesn't trade it to Hammurabi, we might be able to get him before he goes to longbows?

Here's a big overview:

MonarchSG27Medium.jpg


Pericles and Hammy are really expanding. We'll need to take some land back from them.
 
Upload is not working today while they make the switch to the new server. I can email the save directly if you send me a PM, or we can wait for the upload to work tomorrow hopefully.
 
Let wait until you can upload the save and then have a proper discussion re options.

Looks to me like a good turn set and time for another fork in the roads discussions.

Things for the team to think through

1. Do we really think the missing AI are advanced (dont forget I think Philosophy was popped from the Oracle)
2. Why is noboidy else building wonders apart from us
3. How will the lack of religion affect our continent and the missing AI's.
4. Tech Path from here (Optics - Civil Service - Drama + GS to bulb Education -> Liberalism bee line is the classical route)
5. Do we need war versus Pericles / Hammurabi and if so whom? What techs key before any war)

Ralph
 
I think the other AIs are more advanced than those on our continent. I don't think they are significantly further away though as you point out via the wonder builds. I do think it is important to get contact with them as going to war again will limit our trading options in the native land.

Ideally, the other continent is in wars. I'd guess that as their technology advanced and they founded all the different religions, new tensions were added that have erupted into war (hence the great general that was born during my turnset). That would make sense of why they haven't run away with tech over there and why there hasn't been a lot of wonders built.

For war, there are cases that could be made for Hammy or Pericles. I'd have to look at them again, but as I pointed out, if we go to war soon, Hammy might not have longbows yet, which would make him the easier target.

We'd like to have catapults first, so that makes construction a good tech to have first. Macemen are less important because we have Praets.
 
Well a way to tell if the other lands are fighting is by looking for great general activity. I tried scanning the log but it's corrupted from an old version of bug.:mad:

Need to reopen that save to get an idea of the details.

As said, war entails construction. Cats are critical not only for lowering cultural defences but also as a form of cheap collateral damage. Nothing like a pack of Suicide Cats to dislodge pesky 'Archers-on-a-Hill' and whatnot.

Seems the best promotion for Suicide Cats are city raid where one can easily live with pumping out 3 exp cats for that role. It's best to earmark a few cats to serve as bombardment, being sure not to suicide them. If Pumping out 5 xp units from a settled GG, save those hammers for the bombardment team as 5 xp doubles their namesake role and you never have to risk them in a fight.

One of the unit filters in bug will actually list units by type segregating bombardment siege from suicide, making accidental deaths less likely. Later on, the bombardment team can be replaced by 5 xp trebs but suicide cats don;t get replaced until canon. Am I the only one that thinks cats should be strength 4 and trebs strength 5, instead of the converse?

Reading the thread, was alarmed at how early philosophy fell (i.e. taoism). That and the lack of GG creation implies two things to me; Lovefest or mass isolation.

Lovefest is always default as it's the worst case scenario always, but I'm kind of amazed at how the team is snagging non trivial wonders left and right.

I checked the start (not too much information) but it's been so long since I played on a generic continents map, I've forgotten just how fragmented they generally are.

Assuming 7 civs, the known continent (which is really quite large) takes out 4, leaving 3. Not a huge stretch to assume then those 3 each have their own love nest. If so, that can explain the phil slingshot (seriously, WTH?) if neither you or Pericles made a bid for oracle. Just mind boggling to think an AI would even pull something that outlandish.

A fragmented world would also explain how all the religions are sewn up. The usual religious nuts (monty and izzy) come to mind and leaving them the barbarians to fight would explain how they could just beeline all the religions.

So not too hard to guess here...

So liq's wager is the known continent + monty + Izzy + other random Religious Kook and/or Psycho Nutjob (like say Charlie:lol:) each on their own fragment. Each is so focused on their personal psychosis that they neglect basic techs like rifling (oh sorry, boffo1 joke).

Liq is a builder not a warmonger but if you are going to go after anyone, pericles is the one. You have already Contained hammy from going east so he can only realistically go north. Also, hammy bowmen are the defensive equiv of prats. Hammy's UU give macemen and prats nightmares even if EVERY EFFING CITY of his was not on a hill :eek: Feudalism and longbows are really a downgrade for him. Stay away, far far away from hammy til you have gunpowder.

Attacking pericles head on is suicide as his front line towns are on hills and with longbows that's just ugly. Not sure if preserve random seed was left on but I advanced a turn from the 325 AD save and pericles adopted vassalage. Don;t see it mentioned in the report so not sure if it actually happened. Who is Pericles planning to attack?

generichalo.jpg

What I did notice tho is that Athens proper is lightly defended and there's an island north of athens to hide a fleet.

Not really feasible with galleys by this point I guess but man that would be a coup to DOW and raze Athens a turn later.
azzangel.gif



But Liq is merely Builder, nothing to see here.

Both customers are gonna be an ugly dragged out fight meaning now is not the time for an offensive war. Actually at cautious, looks like Pericles might DOW himself tho if his power shifts.

Classical route for techs works well here as the next installment of entertainment entails draft and we gotta see the other half of the world. It's called the 'Classical Route' for a reason, ja?


WTH where the screen shot go haha.
Cheers!
-Liq'd
 
Looking at the whole situation I really am not inclined to go to war right now.
Our Economy is still only acceptable at this point and going to war is going to be pretty hard to maintain.
Of course the bigger issue I see is that going to war is going to be a long bloody conflict that is going to get us what exactly????
We aren't going to seriously cripple either of our neighbors without putting ourselves a position where we get crushed if there is some love fest going on out there.
Do we really want to go to war just to grab a couple more cities?

I would rather focus on tech until we have Optics and find out who or what is out there.
 
Hey I also just noticed.... We look to be close to getting the pyramids.
If we get it, I'm assuming we are staying with Monarchy for the happiness boost, or does someone see a reason to go for some other form of government?
 
The general course of action with the mids is revolting to rep *much* earlier than possible without the wonder. One aspect of rep is that your top 5 towns get +3 happy for free. Early on this is amazing as if you compare it to monarchy, that's up to 15 happy corps you never needed to build nor upkeep. Combine it with religion and that's +5 happies per town without needing monarchy.

The real power of Rep though is the perk that every spec hired is an additional +3 beakers for the hosting city, which is then multiplied by research buildings. This effects all specialists on all continents, be they permanently embedded Great People or the more traditional library hired scientists.

To give you an idea playing an SG as Bi Polar Gandhi (little does the team know this), a single settled great scientist is pulling in almost 16 beakers in 500 AD. (6 Beakers base + 3 for Rep) x 1.75 from Library and Academy = 15.75 beakers per turn). Add in a Monastery (if you have religion) and later on all those research builds such as Universities/Observatories, and you can start to see just how powerful rep is.

Now not sure if Ralph let the cat out of the bag but there's one single Wonder that absolutely dove tails 100% with Pyramid based Representation: The Great Library. Two free scientists at the wonder's city might seem merely ok when considered separate but then realize representation effectively doubles their beaker output for 15+ more beakers a turn. If not for the Mids though, representation would come too late to capitalize on the Great Library as it Obsoletes with scientific Method.

The one trait where this setup just reinforces the overall gameplan is Philosophical. All those specs a Phil leader runs to get GP's popping are what drives the basic research rep provides. Of course that just feeds back into the system itself as a good number of those Great People will be settled into the Town setup to receive the Oxford National Wonder.

And the whole thing starts all over again.

One of the main reasons Beelining Liberalism is considered the "Classical Route" is exactly because of this setup. If one is running the Wunder combo of Mids(rep) + GreatLib, the tech path stalls the obsoleting Scientific Method for as long as humanly possible without being counterproductive.

A fun aspect of all this economic incest is that once setup, the specs are the ones doing a large bulk of the research where laying down the whip for caste system is so much less painful. It's so fun to see currency getting knocked off faster at 0% Slider than when the science slider was 60% just prior to the civic change to Rep. :king:

Don't be fooled by these innocent directions Ralph is steering the SG into.. it's a path forged by some of the best players in the game.

So yeah, Liq is just guessing but tossing out Monarchy for Rep seems likely....

Cheers!
-Liq
 
Well in many ways Liq has done a really good analysis.

The lack of wonders on the other continent(s) suggests no industrious civs out there which is probably just luck of the draw combined with lack of the accelerating strategic resource which will drop the likelihood of AI’s pursuing a wonder.

Personally we know there are 5 remaining AI’s (you can get the number from the Victory screen).

The lack of GG’s (unless we missed them) means they are probably in 2 /3 religious bloc but hopefully disliking each other enough to heavily restrict their Tech Trading Opportunities. (A group of 3 AI’s in a lovefest trade away gleefully with each other and race forwards where as just 2 progress significantly more slowly)

So, I think other than the one who popped Philosophy from the Oracle, the tech levels will be pretty comparable and we may even be slightly more advanced than them.

Plans

1. Need to see the save to be specific (hint hint!)
2. War is for the future as we need Cats and construction isn’t a priority for research
3. Pyramids is such a huge prize (due to turbo-charged specialist research from representation as Liq pointed out) that I would whip it in when available as the city will grow back like a weed. Hereditary rule helped us but representation will transform our research
4. Happiness should now not be an issue even with cities without the representation bonus that lose the Hereditary rule garrison bonus as we have silver coming on stream, +1 happy from forums available + 2 happy from forges as well
5. Forums will really synergise with a SE as the +25% GPP is not to be sneezed out.
6. So lets go Optics and start on the liberalism beeline. War will wait (we don’t have a bad sized empire) and I suspect may come to us from Pericles / Hammy before we take it to them (monitor relations and the power curve so we are prepared) our economy can afford to spawn a few Archers from our Military Pump city to boost garrisons)

We are in a very strong position.
 
Forgot to say that we may well end up in a relatively rare civic (for me) in caste system (as slavery is usually preferred until the late game unless I am spiritual) as Antium (+potentially our capital) will be able to run a sack full of scientists
 
At mortal game difficulties, I find Hereditary rule and religion almost mutually exclusive. With one or the other, a player can normally deal with the happy situation well enough without having to use both though there's always exceptions.

In this situation, Hereditary was a direct result of the religious void. An expensive Civic to run in more than one way, HE can get the job done at a critical time in the game.

Anytime one has a 3 fishie start, a rare caste revolt becomes more likely :lol:

Cheers!
-Liq
 
Ok... So Representation for a government type....
(side note... Wow, I never knew you got the beakers for settled great people... That's HUGE!!!)
What about our next great scientist?
Settle him in Rome, or Academy in Antium or Hadrum?
I would think Academy in Antium would give us the best long term results.

What do people think about settling one more city between Camae and Antium to pick up the spices??? that are there? Worth it or not?
 
How should we treat demands from Hammy or Pericles? My real-life personality (I failed sandbox in elementary school) usually pervades my game-play and I never respond positively to threats.

Do we want to ramp up the odds that we get declared on soon? Heavy pillaging by crossbows can't do our economy much good.
 
I don't see another viable city site for a settler so I think we live with the empire we have.

We are weak enough on the power chart to provoke a declaration from Pericles so I would give into 'reasonable' demands (players choice = if we end up in a war it will be not the end of the world).

Note he has a gems trade available whihc we should probably take. But he is a while away form Crossbows Frankcor!!

Our research is going to Skyrocket under representation and caste system!!
 
In the report above, I saw in turn 10 that Pericles has Feudalism. I'm rusty enough to have assumed that meant he had Crossbows too. My bad.

While I think about it, what are you folks running for logs? I've got BTS running well but I've heard bad things about BUG. I'm perfectly comfortable keeping a manual turn report, but are there any mods that give good warnings about pending city growth, unhealth or unhappiness for BTS? A simple pointer will suffice, thanks!
 
I still write all my reports manually, though I admit a general aversion to any Mods at all. Not because I am worried about crashes or other problems, but for some reason playing it "pure" appeals to me. But the newest version of BUG is supposed to have addressed the previous problems (mainly the log-crash issue).
 
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