New Tech Tree Playtesting + Feedback

Leoreth · Oct 8, 2016

Were making it hapen

I'm finally at a point where I can make the much discussed new tech tree available for playtesting.

How to get it

While the new tech tree is still in playtesting, the current state of the mod will still remain available on Git. If you are familiar with the Git version of the mod, you have been using the main develop branch. The new tech tree is available on the separate hrtechs branch. You can switch to it as follows (in the TortoiseGit menu):

Select "Fetch ..." and press OK.
Select "Switch/Checkout ...", in the dropdown menu next to "Branch" you should be able to select "hrtechs". Confirm with OK and let Tortoise do its thing.

To switch back to "normal" Git DoC repeat the second step selecting "develop" instead.

Content

Here is a (mostly) complete changelog covering everything but the new techs themselves.

Spoiler :

This includes all the bug fixes I've made that happened after I started working on the new tech tree.

Feedback and Discussion

This thread is for everything you encounter while playing with the new tech tree and all further associated changes. I'm especially interested in

tech speed and tech progression, in my experience overall tech speed is a little too slow but I'd like to hear more detailed information about this
impact on UHVs, almost all of them are directly or indirectly impacted and I'd like to know if goals have become too easy/hard
religion founding (right locations etc.), I know that this is still mostly off right now
logical oversights like civs starting with units they do not have the tech for etc.

If you want to give feedback on tech progression, please upload the two new log files Techs.log and TechStatus.log. They contain useful information about how techs were discovered over the course of the game.

You can of course also discuss everything else in this thread: new buildings and units, changes to existing stuff, association of game elements with certain techs, and so on.

Thank you for your feedback!

ales_ · Oct 8, 2016

What about China UHV?

DarkLunaPhantom · Oct 8, 2016

I started a 3000BC Aztec game and got this Python exception during autoplay:

Spoiler :

EDIT: Tech tree at least looks nicer than the old one.

Imperator Knoedel · Oct 8, 2016

-renamed Modern and Future eras to Global and Digital era respectively

Now why did you go and do that?

- Distillery (Chemistry): +1 happiness from Wine, Fruit, Sugar, -1 health from Wine, Fruit, Sugar

There's a new Fruit resource?

Removed Buildings
- Grocer

What is the reason behind this?

- Public Transport (Infrastructure): no unhealthiness from Village, Town
- Recycling Center (Renewable Energy): no unhealthiness from Mine, Workshop

That... is brilliant!

- Castle (Fortification): +1 culture, +50% defense, +4 siege experience

Why would castles give experience to siege weapons?

- Supermarket (Consumerism): +10% food with power [plus some other stuff I implemented in my modmod months ago]

I am glad to see that you have come around to the right way of thinking, my friend. Copycat.

Great People Buildings
- Great Artist: Museum (Heritage): +20% GP birth per culture level
- Great Merchant: Stock Exchange (Corporation): +50% gold, +10% gold per culture level
- Great Scientist: Academy (Philosophy): +50% science, +10% science per culture level
- Great General: Armoury (Standing Army): +50% military production

Yes, finally, culture being useful! Of course I am going to disassociate these buildings from Great People in my modmod, but the fact that I can use already existing code instead of trying to merge my own culture mod alone is going to make things so much easier for me!

Is the Armoury just a renamed Military Academy or does that still exist?

- Lumbermill (Feudalism): +1 production from river, +1 commerce with Paper

I was going to ask what paper has to do with trees, then I realized I'm an idiot.

- Three Gorges Dam renamed Itaipu Dam

Why do you hate the greatest nation on Earth so much, you Dalai Lama loving imperialist?

- Brandenburg Gate (Nationalism): great general threshold resets on great general death

Does this only apply to attached GGs or does settling or building an armoury count as dying too? If this does apply only to units with attached GGs dying it encourages using GGs to make actual super combat units to throw into battle instead of just super medics, and I like that.

- removed Mount Rushmore

Why do you hate the greatest nation on Earth so much, you nazi commie redcoat?

- England: be first to discover ten techs of the Renaissance and ten techs of the Industrial era

Why Renaissance? I'd argue France was the tech leader there.

All in all I really like most of these changes, but I am a bit sad that you refuse to incorporate ranged strikes. Oh well, at least that means my modmod isn't redundant.

Btw, is there a way to have separate mod folders for both the hrtechs branch and the old version? Edit: Never mind, this seems like something I should be able to figure out myself. Just following the instructions to get the Git version but renaming the folder to something else, followed by editing the scenario files and the .ini file to match the new name should do the trick, right? But then I'd have to repeat these file edits every time I pull the new version, no?

civcivcivcivciv · Oct 8, 2016

if Tactical Nuke is removed

then submarine can not launched nuclear missiles ?

ales_ · Oct 9, 2016

Imp. Knoedel said:
Now why did you go and do that?

That's the way it is in History Rewritten. Modern and Future are too generic names.

Imp. Knoedel said:
Why would castles give experience to siege weapons?

Maybe new siege units are practicing on their own castle?

Imperator Knoedel · Oct 9, 2016

ales_ said:
That's the way it is in History Rewritten. Modern and Future are too generic names.

And I think Global and Digital are too specific. Also id doesn't even make sense, how is the digital age not global too?

ales_ said:
Maybe new siege units are practicing on their own castle?

This seems like an effect worthy of the Balseraphs in Fall From Heaven.

Leoreth · Oct 9, 2016

ales_ said:
What about China UHV?

It's unchanged (technically Printing Press changed to Printing).

DarkLunaPhantom said:
I started a 3000BC Aztec game and got this Python exception during autoplay:

Spoiler :

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "BugEventManager", line 400, in _handleDefaultEvent
File "CvRFCEventHandler", line 593, in onBeginGameTurn
File "Plague", line 81, in checkTurn
File "Plague", line 119, in startPlague
File "Plague", line 417, in isVulnerable
AttributeError: Plague instance has no attribute 'getPlagueCountdown'

Noted.

Imp. Knoedel said:
There's a new Fruit resource?

Not yet, I plan to go ahead and replace Banana with Fruit at some later point. Looks like I got ahead of myself in the documentation.

What is the reason behind this?

I removed the Grocer because I don't think the difference to Markets was clear enough, and because it meant clustering gold modifiers around the medieval era. In the old tech tree, Guilds and Banking were very close so you could get +100% gold very early. Its health effects moved to the new Pharmacy building.

That... is brilliant!

It's Xyth's idea

Yes, finally, culture being useful! Of course I am going to disassociate these buildings from Great People in my modmod, but the fact that I can use already existing code instead of trying to merge my own culture mod alone is going to make things so much easier for me!

I'm still considering if National Wonders should also get these modifiers.

By the way, further culture level related stuff is going to come, such as wonder and national wonder limits.

Is the Armoury just a renamed Military Academy or does that still exist?

Armoury is the new name for the old Military Academy building. But there is now a new Military Academy building which is a national wonder.

Why do you hate the greatest nation on Earth so much, you Dalai Lama loving imperialist?

I discussed the reasons previously:
- the Itaipu Dam was earlier and the much more impressive work of engineering for its time
- unlike the Three Gorges Dam it is connected to a UHV

also what does this have to do with sweden

Does this only apply to attached GGs or does settling or building an armoury count as dying too? If this does apply only to units with attached GGs dying it encourages using GGs to make actual super combat units to throw into battle instead of just super medics, and I like that.

Settling does not count, only combat deaths. And yeah that is exactly the idea.

Why Renaissance? I'd argue France was the tech leader there.

If you look at the Renaissance techs you find several techs where England was at least among the leading nations.

Btw, is there a way to have separate mod folders for both the hrtechs branch and the old version? Edit: Never mind, this seems like something I should be able to figure out myself. Just following the instructions to get the Git version but renaming the folder to something else, followed by editing the scenario files and the .ini file to match the new name should do the trick, right? But then I'd have to repeat these file edits every time I pull the new version, no?

I think if you only change the ini file there should be no conflict when pulling. Switching between branches with only one folder is the other solution, that's the concept behind branches at least.

J422 · Oct 9, 2016

Wow, lots of new things, that's great !

Played a little, so here are the first bugs :

Water tiles are never workable

Babylon starts with a lot of techs

A bunch of errors appear on turn 8 in the 3000BC scenario

Leoreth · Oct 9, 2016

On Babylon: I needed to scale up their UP in relation to the number of techs. Is it too much?

I'll get to the other bugs soon.

Imperator Knoedel · Oct 9, 2016

Leoreth said:
By the way, further culture level related stuff is going to come, such as wonder and national wonder limits.

Noice. Just like ponies, whenever I'm starting to think you're in decline you rise like a phoenix from the ashes to amaze me.

also what does this have to do with sweden

At least you didn't say Canada, that would have triggered me.

Also what about Mount Rushmore?

I think if you only change the ini file there should be no conflict when pulling. Switching between branches with only one folder is the other solution, that's the concept behind branches at least.

I have to change the scenario files by definition if they are in a folder with a different name, because they are Private Maps which can only be played if the mod that is currently loaded has the same name as the mod specified in the scenario files. That was quite the headache for me back when I was regularly releasing new versions of my modmod with the number of the version in the mod's name.

J422 · Oct 9, 2016

Did a Canada autoplay from 3000 BC, tech speed is definitely too low...

In 1866, there are only a handful of civs with industrial techs, most of them only have the ones they spawned with, England only has chemistry.
Paris is building a longbowman : )

Apparently there was no colonization at all in the americas...

Trading companies seemed to work, though. (I think the only non TC colony is english Sydney)

Here are the logs, as you can see lots of "first" techs were due to civs spawning.

Leoreth · Oct 9, 2016

Okay thanks, that confirms my worries. Looks like this affects all civs across the board, I'll try a 20% speed increase for everyone.

Imp. Knoedel said:
Noice. Just like ponies, whenever I'm starting to think you're in decline you rise like a phoenix from the ashes to amaze me.

I think my work cycle is just longer than your patience period

Also what about Mount Rushmore?

It was a glorified national wonder to begin with, we already have enough American wonders, and then there's its racially contentious background.

I have to change the scenario files by definition if they are in a folder with a different name, because they are Private Maps which can only be played if the mod that is currently loaded has the same name as the mod specified in the scenario files. That was quite the headache for me back when I was regularly releasing new versions of my modmod with the number of the version in the mod's name.

That's why I would recommend the branch switching approach.

Imperator Knoedel · Oct 9, 2016

Leoreth said:
It was a glorified national wonder to begin with, we already have enough American wonders, and then there's its racially contentious background.

You mean because it's technically a heinous insult to the native people who worship the land?

That's why I would recommend the branch switching approach.

Is there an easy way to compare differences between files though?

Leoreth · Oct 9, 2016

Imp. Knoedel said:
You mean because it's technically a heinous insult to the native people who worship the land?

As in, it was literally a holy mountain to the local indigenous population.

Is there an easy way to compare differences between files though?

You can in the command line interface (see here), not sure if Tortoise can do something similar.

Leoreth · Oct 9, 2016

Update:
- Sailing enables working water tiles
- fixed a Python exception in the Plague module

Temujin8k · Oct 9, 2016

Imp. Knoedel said:
Is there an easy way to compare differences between files though?

You can! If you're using TortoiseGit, the Diff options in the TortoiseGit context menu allows you to compare differences between two files. If the file has been modified, you can compare it to the original remote copy. You can also compare it to the previous version. And most importantly, you can compare two different files together using the Diff Later... option. Very handy for me especially when manually merging.

Temujin8k · Oct 9, 2016

J422 said:
Did a Canada autoplay from 3000 BC, tech speed is definitely too low...

In 1866, there are only a handful of civs with industrial techs, most of them only have the ones they spawned with, England only has chemistry.
Paris is building a longbowman : )
View attachment 455690

Apparently there was no colonization at all in the americas...
View attachment 455691
Trading companies seemed to work, though. (I think the only non TC colony is english Sydney)

View attachment 455692
Here are the logs, as you can see lots of "first" techs were due to civs spawning.

Yay! I thought it was just me and my sluggish old laptop. I suggest significantly adjusting the tech costs. I modified my copy of the hrtechs branch, heavily adjusting the costs while still basing the pattern on the original one. Playing a few games with it, I observed it significantly improved tech progress in games, especially in the 1700 AD scenario, but I still can't get the right speed. I don't fully understand the CvTeam::getResearchCost() method in the DLL so I tried only commenting out the lines which make the tech costs affected by the map size--we only have one map size, and the modifier is currently a bit high since the map size is described as "huge."

I also noticed that some of the civs do not have enough starting techs according to their birth year. For instance, I think Greece, India and Phoenicia should start with at least half of the column 3 techs; and Japan, Vikings, Khmer and Indonesia should spawn with maybe one column 7 tech. And Turkey and Germany don't start with any techs in the 1700 AD scenario.

I've already implemented my own ideas into my local copy. I can link here the spreadsheet containing my adjusted tech costs as well as push my modified CIV4TechInfos.xml and Civilizations.py files if needed.

Leoreth · Oct 9, 2016

Actually the best would be if you could start an ongoing pull request of your changes against my hrtechs branch

Temujin8k · Oct 9, 2016

Leoreth said:
Actually the best would be if you could start an ongoing pull request of your changes against my hrtechs branch

I already branched out from your hrtechs branch quite a long time ago, but I actually managed to screw up that branch recently when I merged in your recent commits (those you pushed shortly before opening this thread). Although what I was able to push only so far was to update the # of building types constant in the DLL, removed the old Sejmik and Tambo XML entries, and add a new Copper Age era game text, as well as the Sailing water working ability which you already pushed. I'll push my suggested modifications on the tech costs and civ starting techs after I sleep.

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