New Tech Tree Playtesting + Feedback
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
Temujin8k
Fluyts, Grand Vizier of Your Mind
Okay, no problem! That's actually great to hear, although for some reason I still think I need to create a new branch. I think it would be a bit easy to do, though.
mrrandomplayer
Hopeless Situation Warrior
Super interesting so far. A few things:
1. Occasionally the city interface weirds out and doesn't show everything, and I can only build units. EDIT: In this game it looks like it happened after I discovered alloys. EDIT: In another game, I got a python exception for it.
2. Research speed is too slow (this has already been said). Then again, I thought research speed in earlier DoC was too slow, so it might just be me.
3. The civilopedia/tech tree doesn't show obsolete dates for wonders.
4. There are no quotes for any of the techs.
5. EDIT: India does not seem to be getting Hinduism. In my first game, China founded it, and in my second game, Babylon founded it. EDIT again: I just founded it in my most recent game.
6. The starting civics do not reflect how availability has changed with the tech tree changes.
I was a bit nervous about this before but I'm super excited to see how it plays out, and I'm loving it so far! Thanks Leoreth!
1. Occasionally the city interface weirds out and doesn't show everything, and I can only build units. EDIT: In this game it looks like it happened after I discovered alloys. EDIT: In another game, I got a python exception for it.
2. Research speed is too slow (this has already been said). Then again, I thought research speed in earlier DoC was too slow, so it might just be me.
3. The civilopedia/tech tree doesn't show obsolete dates for wonders.
4. There are no quotes for any of the techs.
5. EDIT: India does not seem to be getting Hinduism. In my first game, China founded it, and in my second game, Babylon founded it. EDIT again: I just founded it in my most recent game.
6. The starting civics do not reflect how availability has changed with the tech tree changes.
I was a bit nervous about this before but I'm super excited to see how it plays out, and I'm loving it so far! Thanks Leoreth!
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Whatever is easiest for you.
Good to hear positive feedback, especially if you've been skeptical before. On your comments:
1) Can you take a screenshot of that? Have logging or Python exceptions been enabled?
2) It's definitely slower than normal DoC, I don't think it's just you.
3) I have removed most obsolete techs, I'm still not sure if such a mechanism is the best way to expire strong wonders. Maybe there should just be events that can trigger after a particular era for particular wonders? This could also be nice for flavour.
4) For any? Some old quotes should have been retained, and most other techs should have their History Rewritten quotes. Some of those quotes are not appropriate anymore after I have retooled the techs around them though. I plan to put up a thread for tech quote brainstorming soon.
5) Yeah, the techs associated with religions are screwed up right now, will work on that soon.
mrrandomplayer
Hopeless Situation Warrior
I think I have the python exception in the screenshot that I edited in later. Also, maybe the Ancient Era civs should start with a few more techs? It's a bit weird to see Greece start with more techs than Carthage.
Scaling up Babylon's UP equals scaling down China's UP in the Ancient Era, and vice versa. Ideally these civs should be able to be balanced separately from each other, especially given how they both start in the 3000BC scenario but only China shows up in 600AD.
Perhaps this entanglement between their UPs could be eased by modifying Babylon's UP. Examples:
[1] The first X number of techs you discover grants you an additional free tech.
Same as Oracle/Liberalism effect. This spreads the conflict with China's UP more evenly across time.
[2] When researching techs in the Ancient Era, prerequisites do not need to be satisfied.
May be overpowered. This also spreads the conflict with China's UP more evenly across time.
[3] Tribal Village gives better rewards. Each Barbarian you defeat and each new city you acquire also gives you a Tribal Village reward.
Give Babylon a backstage buff in tech speed in the Ancient Era instead. Idea stolen from Civ 6.
In addition to the disentanglement, these UPs are also more dynamic and/or allows for more player customizability, and are thus more fun IMO.
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I was actually considering straight up giving them x free techs at the beginning of the game, but you're right that China is an important point to keep in mind.
That still leaves the question of how much tech is right for them at the start of the game.
That still leaves the question of how much tech is right for them at the start of the game.
So I think the problematic religions in terms of founding techs are as follows:
- Hinduism/Ceremony: Greece starts with it, Babylonia usually researches it early, both come before India can spawn with it. Moving it to Calendar is not really a solution because that's also part of the Babylonian UHV. Other ideas?
- Confucianism/Contract: It's part of the Babylonian UHV right now. I think Confucianism is right in that column and no other tech seems appropriate. I'm considering dropping it from the UHV instead. Thoughts?
- Taoism/Aesthetics: same situation, this time with the Greek UHV.
Not sure about Zoroastrianism/Priesthood right now. Open to any ideas.
- Hinduism/Ceremony: Greece starts with it, Babylonia usually researches it early, both come before India can spawn with it. Moving it to Calendar is not really a solution because that's also part of the Babylonian UHV. Other ideas?
- Confucianism/Contract: It's part of the Babylonian UHV right now. I think Confucianism is right in that column and no other tech seems appropriate. I'm considering dropping it from the UHV instead. Thoughts?
- Taoism/Aesthetics: same situation, this time with the Greek UHV.
Not sure about Zoroastrianism/Priesthood right now. Open to any ideas.
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
Another idea for Babylon: How about instead of just giving them free techs, they just get something related to cottages? Maybe double growth rate, or every time a worker finishes building a cottage it instantly gets turned into a Hamlet?
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
Didn't you want to divorce founding religions from the tech tree? We already have that with Buddhism, I think other religion should follow suit. Maybe being the first civ to construct a Courthouse should found Confucianism?
I do like though that their UP is only a non-scaling headstart.
Did I? Courthouse is now a Constitution building so that's not going to work. Mostly my goal is to have the religion founding rules be more holistic.
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
Restrict it to the ancient era then.
Well surely there is a similar building that could fit the need?
pernas
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2016
- Messages
- 35
Maybe we should move away from tech requirements for religions, now that the tech tree is much more strict (less beelinining). Ethiopia might also have trouble now that you probably can't bulb theology efficiently. Some ideas for new requirements for religions are:
Hinduism: city of size 10
Confucianism: city with a library
Orthodoxy: have a settled Great Prohet
Taoism: Have 3 hooked calendar resources
Zoroastrianism: Have a city with X culture
Civs like India and Persia could start with their religion without meeting the requirements.
About the babylon UHV, I tried them and it felt like a lot of techs, just kinda hard to remember.
Hinduism: city of size 10
Confucianism: city with a library
Orthodoxy: have a settled Great Prohet
Taoism: Have 3 hooked calendar resources
Zoroastrianism: Have a city with X culture
Civs like India and Persia could start with their religion without meeting the requirements.
About the babylon UHV, I tried them and it felt like a lot of techs, just kinda hard to remember.
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mrrandomplayer
Hopeless Situation Warrior
The city screen issue is still occurring for me, now the turn I found my city. Maybe it has something to do with discovering some late Ancient Era tech? I think it might be alloys. I have been playing as Greece and the screen issue always starts happening after I get that tech.
Some obvservations on China :
-Babylon steals all the religions ! especially hinduism, confucianism and taoism. India has a tendency to found zoroastrianism too.
The only way to found the two chinese religions is to focus only on them from the start, which delays some crucial techs (calendar, copper, iron)
-Strength 8 horse archers
, that's pretty hard on poor China, but the great wall is available earlier, so that kinda balances out.
-The new units are great ! The skirmisher is cool, and very useful in hilly china
-Also got this bug, but not on tech discovery, only when I move a spearman, apparently.
-Babylon steals all the religions ! especially hinduism, confucianism and taoism. India has a tendency to found zoroastrianism too.
The only way to found the two chinese religions is to focus only on them from the start, which delays some crucial techs (calendar, copper, iron)
-Strength 8 horse archers
, that's pretty hard on poor China, but the great wall is available earlier, so that kinda balances out.-The new units are great ! The skirmisher is cool, and very useful in hilly china
-Also got this bug, but not on tech discovery, only when I move a spearman, apparently.
Spoiler :
I think it's the Light Swordsman art, will look into it.
The religion thing is already in discussion, and I'm thinking about it. I haven't given much attention to barbarian spawns, I think now that Horse Archers are stronger they should appear later. We can have Horseman barbarians instead. Great that the Skirmisher is useful.Some obvservations on China :
-Babylon steals all the religions ! especially hinduism, confucianism and taoism. India has a tendency to found zoroastrianism too.
The only way to found the two chinese religions is to focus only on them from the start, which delays some crucial techs (calendar, copper, iron)
-Strength 8 horse archers
-The new units are great ! The skirmisher is cool, and very useful in hilly china
-Also got this bug, but not on tech discovery, only when I move a spearman, apparently.
Spoiler :
soul-breathing
Emperor
My suggestions:
1. Refrigeration needs Electricity to research.
2. Wembley renames to Estádio do Maracanã, same reason with the Three Gorges Dam to Itaipu Dam.
1. Refrigeration needs Electricity to research.
2. Wembley renames to Estádio do Maracanã, same reason with the Three Gorges Dam to Itaipu Dam.
Bernd-das-Brot
Prince
Thanks for your ongoing efforts, Leoreth! The new tech tree and all the other changes look very promising.
Made one Egypt game so far. No real problems.
Two smaller issues:
- I founded Buddhism, when researching the tech for the Great Library.
- The Axemen seems to be buggy. Should he be in the game even? Could build him after getting smelting, but vanished later. Civipedia entry seems to be broken, too.
Made one Egypt game so far. No real problems.
Two smaller issues:
- I founded Buddhism, when researching the tech for the Great Library.
- The Axemen seems to be buggy. Should he be in the game even? Could build him after getting smelting, but vanished later. Civipedia entry seems to be broken, too.
