New Version - 3.0.4 (November 29, 2022)

[alchx]

In order not to produce offtopic in proposals, I'll ask a question here:

Why do skirmishers have 5 movement points. They cannot be overtaken by another mounted unit, Horseman, which looks odd. It is possible that the Skirmisher will always fire at the Horseman and have time to escape 4 tiles. There must be parity between units of similar classes - either you run away and I can't catch up with you, or we converge in a fight.

The situation is similar for heavy skirmishers and knights.

 

[Stalker0]

In order not to produce offtopic in proposals, I'll ask a question here:

Why do skirmishers have 5 movement points. They cannot be overtaken by another mounted unit, Horseman, which looks odd. It is possible that the Skirmisher will always fire at the Horseman and have time to escape 4 tiles. There must be parity between units of similar classes - either you run away and I can't catch up with you, or we converge in a fight.

The situation is similar for heavy skirmishers and knights.

So the new skirmisher represents "light cavalry" which is faster than "heavy cavalry" aka the mounted melee.

In general what I have found with the new paradigm, its true that with proper micro its easy to keep skirmishers alive. However, they are not your main force. If you rely on skirmishers, enemies can just pounce into your civ, they will pillage everything in sight, and they will stall out your workers (remember this was changed recently, now an enemy unit stops work on ALL tiles around it, not just the one its on. Enemy units are VERY disruptive now). I tried a few games where I went heavy on the skirmisher department, and yes eventually I would win but the cost would be terribly high as the enemy just stalls me out for 20 turns.

The better play is a few skirmishers to soften up troops and to provide that key flanking bonuses, and then use other units to bring proper "devastation" to the enemy. So in this context the 5 speed works very well, it gives skirmishers a great niche but I really have not found them OP at all, I always want a few of them....but never a lot of them. A perfect balance for a support unit.

 

[Rekk]

If a skirmisher starts out next to you, shoots, then moves 4... don't chase after it? What's it going to do next turn? Move 4 and shoot you again, at which point it's in melee range of your units?

 

[ma_kuh]

I've had a similar experience so far with skirmishers, not feeling over powered during engagements. But I do get the feeling they just don't really need that extra movement. It feels like you could rely on Parthian Tactics to get them to their current power level for pillaging, and not give it to them out of the gates (maybe moving Parthian Tactics to require Accuracy I or II instead of III). After all, they don't always need to get a shot off to enable the flanking, so if the speed is key they can forgo the attack.

 

[Amask]

I love the new skirmishers.
Their damage is quite pathetic, that's true, but that's not their purpose.
Build a few, pair them with a promoted knight, and enjoy situations like this:
I'm one-shotting a knight with a half-dead knight.

 

[andersw]

I personally think they could be a very strong asset in a zulu army. You can get 25% flanking with special promotion, plus 25% from overrun, for a total 50% . So a single skirmisher add 100% to your melee units...

Oh wow I realised now how they work, very interesting.
3.0.4
Testing new china, the tile improvement is really strong out of the box (maybe too strong) but I feel it maybe need something that buffs it later?
WLTK is easy to keep up, I also got a great religous combo for it with open sky, theocratic rule and synagoges add that I got mausoleum with that...
The growth is great, I just managed to hit reformation (not sure what to take).

AI having trouble, a pathetic authority persia (finally settles city 3 when I get machinery) threw away a bunch of units vs a cs, something feels off.
Early Persia used to be scary but something doesnt work shouldnt be the barbs, that should be a boon in this case
I also got ... stonehenge, petra, mausoleum, great library, terracotta, colossus, ankor wat on emperor .... thats a bit much.

 

[CppMaster]

I love the new skirmishers.
Their damage is quite pathetic, that's true, but that's not their purpose.
Build a few, pair them with a promoted knight, and enjoy situations like this:
I'm one-shotting a knight with a half-dead knight.
View attachment 646436

OMG! That's incredible!

 

[YoullPay4ThisInTime]

I love the new skirmishers.
Their damage is quite pathetic, that's true, but that's not their purpose.
Build a few, pair them with a promoted knight, and enjoy situations like this:
I'm one-shotting a knight with a half-dead knight.
View attachment 646436

That's a pretty interesting mechanic imo but is the AI able to use it well ? This is especially relevant for mongolia and the huns. If the AI doesn't really take advantage of this they will end up even weaker than they already are.

 

[andersw]

That's a pretty interesting mechanic imo but is the AI able to use it well ? This is especially relevant for mongolia and the huns. If the AI doesn't really take advantage of this they will end up even weaker than they already are.

I need to try poland with this, winged hussar is already super strong ...

 

[rusbeh]

I love the new skirmishers.
Their damage is quite pathetic, that's true, but that's not their purpose.
Build a few, pair them with a promoted knight, and enjoy situations like this:
I'm one-shotting a knight with a half-dead knight.
View attachment 646436

The skirmisher line is great. The skirmisher unit just has low damage compared to other units in its line. The heavy skirmisher does 14 damage which is decent when attacking a 22 CS longswordman. The skirmisher 7 RCS is really really low when attacking a 16 CS swordman.

 

[rusbeh]

Or is there a reason I'm missing as to why the skirmisher unit has low RCS compared to other skirmisher line units?

 

[andersw]

Or is there a reason I'm missing as to why the skirmisher unit has low RCS compared to other skirmisher line units?

New promo, look at the screenshot that you quoted.
A melee unit next to the skirmisher gets +50% dmg on attack.

 

[Stalker0]

The skirmisher line is great. The skirmisher unit just has low damage compared to other units in its line. The heavy skirmisher does 14 damage which is decent when attacking a 22 CS longswordman. The skirmisher 7 RCS is really really low when attacking a 16 CS swordman.

That’s the wrong comparison. Swords are specialty units that come out late in the era, they and are meant to be the apex of that time.

Long swords are a much more staple unit in the medieval era.

 

[rusbeh]

New promo, look at the screenshot that you quoted.
A melee unit next to the skirmisher gets +50% dmg on attack.

All of the skirmisher line units have the same promotions except for the Chariot and the Helicopter gunship.

That’s the wrong comparison. Swords are specialty units that come out late in the era, they and are meant to be the apex of that time.

Long swords are a much more staple unit in the medieval era.

I could make the same comparison with the spearman and the pikeman. Heavy skirmishers do way more damage. My point is the skirmisher line units deal okay damage on their own except for the skirmisher unit you unlock with mathematics.

 

[Stalker0]

All of the skirmisher line units have the same promotions except for the Chariot and the Helicopter gunship.

I could make the same comparison with the spearman and the pikeman. Heavy skirmishers do way more damage. My point is the skirmisher line units deal okay damage on their own except for the skirmisher unit you unlock with mathematics.

Lets dig in and take a look!

vs Spearman
Spearman with Formation II in Open Terrain
CS: 13.8, 21.72 vs horse

Archer (Accuracy 1)
RCS: 10.8, deals 26.0 damage

Horseman (Shock 1)
CS: 14.3, deals 22.8 damage, takes 35.3

Skirmisher (Accuracy 1)
RCS: 8.4, deals 12.5


vs Pikeman
Pikeman with Formation II and Shock 1 in Open Terrain
CS: 21.25, 32.47 vs horses

Composite Bowman (accuracy 2)
RCS: 19.6 RCS, deals 28.8

Knight (Shock 2)
CS: 28.8, deals 28.1, takes 32.5

Heavy Skirmisher (Accuracy 2)
RCS: 19.6, deals 21.2


So based on this, we can see that the skimrisher does less than half the damage of an archer, meanwhile the heavy skirmisher does less (but comparable) damage to a cbow. Further, the mounted melee has gotten stronger in this era, making the flanking bonus from the heavy skirmisher even more useful.

I think the case can be made for a buff to the skirmisher.

 

[metfansc]

Been a while since I have updated my VP build, does anyone of a DLL for the current 3.04 patch available, I would love to give it a try.

 

[rusbeh]

Lets dig in and take a look!

vs Spearman
Spearman with Formation II in Open Terrain
CS: 13.8, 21.72 vs horse

Archer (Accuracy 1)
RCS: 10.8, deals 26.0 damage

Horseman (Shock 1)
CS: 14.3, deals 22.8 damage, takes 35.3

Skirmisher (Accuracy 1)
RCS: 8.4, deals 12.5


vs Pikeman
Pikeman with Formation II and Shock 1 in Open Terrain
CS: 21.25, 32.47 vs horses

Composite Bowman (accuracy 2)
RCS: 19.6 RCS, deals 28.8

Knight (Shock 2)
CS: 28.8, deals 28.1, takes 32.5

Heavy Skirmisher (Accuracy 2)
RCS: 19.6, deals 21.2


So based on this, we can see that the skimrisher does less than half the damage of an archer, meanwhile the heavy skirmisher does less (but comparable) damage to a cbow. Further, the mounted melee has gotten stronger in this era, making the flanking bonus from the heavy skirmisher even more useful.

I think the case can be made for a buff to the skirmisher.

Based on this I think a case could also be made for a nerf to the heavy skirmisher RCS.

 

[Stalker0]

Based on this I think a case could also be made for a nerf to the heavy skirmisher RCS.

so if we dig into that. in terms of damage, the cbow does 35.8% more damage against the pike.

In terms of shots, the cbow will pretty much always kill the pike in 4 shots unless the damage rolls are very poor. The skirmisher will take 6 shots (you lose the accuracy bonus after the first 3 shots, which lowers the damage enough that this matters). So in terms of shots, the cbow is 33% more efficient.

Take that as you will.

 

[JNZS13]

I love the new skirmishers.
Their damage is quite pathetic, that's true, but that's not their purpose.
Build a few, pair them with a promoted knight, and enjoy situations like this:
I'm one-shotting a knight with a half-dead knight.

This is not vannila textures right? If not could you please provide a link? Thanks

 

[CrazyG]

So based on this, we can see that the skimrisher does less than half the damage of an archer, meanwhile the heavy skirmisher does less (but comparable) damage to a cbow. Further, the mounted melee has gotten stronger in this era, making the flanking bonus from the heavy skirmisher even more useful.

I think the case can be made for a buff to the skirmisher.

I think they need one, half the damage of a unit unlocked much earlier is pathetic.