New Version - April 30th (4/30)

[Guynemer]

I’ve been strongly against the cultural victory wonder idea, and I still view it with some trepidation. It can exacerbate the problem, which has never been fully fixed from vanilla, that the end game is frequently an exercise in hitting “next turn.” But maybe with the recent changes to culture and tourism it won’t be as bad as I fear. I’m still hard pressed to see what positive impact this change brings to the game though.

I'd agree with this, quite apart from my surprise at said wonder being the Panopticon. I understand the intent was to delay the cultural victory to happen around the same time as diplo, but I'm not entirely sure of the reason as to why. I'm fine with being able to achieve a cultural victory before being able to achieve a diplo victory, and being able to achieve a diplo victory before being able to achieve a science victory.


EDIT: I accidentally a word

 

[pineappledan]

Hahaha, the Panopticon?

Spoiler new icon idea :

I agree with others, not sure what homogenizing victory conditions so they all require a wonder is supposed to do. Is domination victory going to require a wonder now too?

NATO
Must control all capitals
Unlocked at Mobile Tactics
Enables Domination Victory
"They need some Freedom over there!"

 

[Gazebo]

Hahaha, the Panopticon? You should change the icon to be Bentham's corpse

I agree with others, not sure what homogenizing victory conditions so they all require a wonder is supposed to do. Is domination victory going to require a wonder now too?

NATO
Must control all capitals
Unlocked at Mobile Tactics

Bleh. Don’t be idiotic, you’re better than that.

There’s multiple good reasons for a wonder cap for the CV:

It makes science and production a bit more important for CV seekers. It also therefore makes things like sanctioning a bigger speed bump for CVs and allows for a minimal turn investment in a game (no more 1900 CVs).

Cultural Victories are the only accidental victories in the game. I’ve seen innumerable reports about accidentally winning a CV or suddenly losing a CV. The project sends out a global notification when you start building it, giving the estimated turns to completion too. This makes those last few turns before a CV tense for all parties involved, and gives you a definitive moment of victory. It also lets players who want to win another victory type the option to ignore the CV.

It isn’t a big deal in terms of change - all it does is provide a mandatory tech and ~5-10 turns of production. Easy. Don’t overblow it.


As to why panopticon: the concept of mass surveillance is interwoven into the idea of mass culture and assimilation. I don’t see how you could view it otherwise. Yes there’s the benthamite prison concept, but the term means so much more now (especially in the context of Foucault’s analysis).

G

 

[Deadstarre]

Extra religion is going to be interesting.

anyone who has played with Theodora is already perfectly used to it =)

but now her presence in the game can certainly change things up. adds depth and variety in a big way IMO

 

[Stalker0]

On CV. Assuming that you believe there is an issue...it comes down to whether the victory is too FAST or too FOCUSED.

If it’s just too fast, then I would rather adjust tourism rates. If it’s too focused (meaning just focused on culture / tourism ) than the wonder concept makes sense.

I think in play testing we will need to watch for two aspects.

1) is it now too slow?

People including myself have expressed that telecom may be too late for the key tech. It’s certaibly the most cinematically appropriate to me...so we will see how it plays out.

2) does it turn CV into a defecto science victory?

One thing we will need to watch for. Does the science become the dominant driver for the victory. Aka you can so easily get your tourism in gear by then that you still don’t think about it much...you are more focused on science.

We shall see how it “pans” out in testing

 

[pineappledan]

Bleh. Don’t be idiotic, you’re better than that.

Geez, who pissed in your cornflakes, Mr. Grumpypants?

 

[Gazebo]

Geez, who pissed in your cornflakes, Mr. Grumpypants?

 

[Deadstarre]

Fortification for units - now applies full fortification bonus on next turn - 'shield' icon change for unit only appears if unit is actually fortified

Boats can now properly garrison a city (city chooses best defender based on unit defense)


1) need more color on this please, from the wording I dont understand specifically what changed. my best guess would be - any unit which doesnt move gets a %40 bonus now?

2) Does this mean Dromons etc can shoot from inside a city?

 

[ryanmusante]

Dingo: You must spank her well, and after you are done with her, you may deal with her as you like, and then spank me.
Nuns: And me. And me too. And me.

Reminded me of Monty Python Holy Grail reference. The smiley face receiving the lashes seems like he's in a sort of pleasurable trance.

 

[Deadstarre]

The smiley face receiving the lashes seems like he's in a sort of pleasurable trance.

interpreting that smiley is more of a rorschach test really.... but now we know whats on your mind =)

 

[Gazebo]

Fortification for units - now applies full fortification bonus on next turn - 'shield' icon change for unit only appears if unit is actually fortified

Boats can now properly garrison a city (city chooses best defender based on unit defense)


1) need more color on this please, from the wording I dont understand specifically what changed. my best guess would be - any unit which doesnt move gets a %40 bonus now?

2) Does this mean Dromons etc can shoot from inside a city?

1.) if it fortifies it gets the full fortification bonus yes.

2.) not 100% on that, ilteroi did the legwork on both of these.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Nah but for real though, I think having/not having a wonder called the Panopticon in the game actually merits some discussion. Like a real, philosophical debate re: the implications and message of having that be the so-called cultural end point of civilization.

I'm going to make a separate post concerning it

 

[Gazebo]

Hotfixed the resource quirk noted on github. Savegame compatible, new version (4-30-1) online.

G

 

[Deadstarre]

ilteroi did the legwork on both of these.

G

@ilteroi when you have a moment please explain the new combat systems re: fortify and boats

 

[CrazyG]

If tourism victories are consistently happening too early, we could look at the Arena. Its the epitome of accidental tourism generation.

 

[Bascule2000]

If tourism victories are consistently happening too early, we could look at the Arena. Its the epitome of accidental tourism generation.

In my experience the game-winning tourism comes from the birth of great people in the late-game, and to a lesser extent winning late wars. Personally I'd nerf those bonuses, and buff the static yields from great works and landmarks (which are pretty hopeless at the moment).

 

[Blue Ghost]

It isn’t a big deal in terms of change - all it does is provide a mandatory tech and ~5-10 turns of production. Easy. Don’t overblow it.
G

I don't mind the wonder so much, but the mandatory tech is what I have issue with. I've already laid out my arguments before, but I hope you don't mind indulging me again. My argument is basically that a tech lock for cultural victory is pointless at best, and counterproductive at worst.

I agree that in recent versions, cultural victory can come too quickly. I've frequently been able to attain and keep influential status in modern era. I don't know if that's still true with the current nerf to tourism, but if it is, I agree that it can be a problem.

Adding a tech lock to cultural victory does not solve the problem, but draws attention to it and makes it worse. With the Panopticon requirement, I can still get and keep influential status in modern era. And then... What do I do for two eras? I've already won, I have no more goals to work toward, and I can only twiddle my thumbs until I unlock Telecommunications and work on the Panopticon. Cultural victory isn't made any more difficult, just more boring. If tourism is slowed down so you can no longer win cultural victory in the modern era, then that's not a problem, but then there's also no point in having a tech lock in the first place.

Cultural victory already gets a major bump in the Information era, with the Internet tech. I wouldn't mind if tourism was balanced to a point that most games require the Internet boost to win. But for the games where you don't need it, I do not want to wait two eras for a tech unlock when I already have all the influence I need.

 

[Gazebo]

I don't mind the wonder so much, but the mandatory tech is what I have issue with. I've already laid out my arguments before, but I hope you don't mind indulging me again. My argument is basically that a tech lock for cultural victory is pointless at best, and counterproductive at worst.

I agree that in recent versions, cultural victory can come too quickly. I've frequently been able to attain and keep influential status in modern era. I don't know if that's still true with the current nerf to tourism, but if it is, I agree that it can be a problem.

Adding a tech lock to cultural victory does not solve the problem, but draws attention to it and makes it worse. With the Panopticon requirement, I can still get and keep influential status in modern era. And then... What do I do for two eras? I've already won, I have no more goals to work toward, and I can only twiddle my thumbs until I unlock Telecommunications and work on the Panopticon. Cultural victory isn't made any more difficult, just more boring. If tourism is slowed down so you can no longer win cultural victory in the modern era, then that's not a problem, but then there's also no point in having a tech lock in the first place.

Cultural victory already gets a major bump in the Information era, with the Internet tech. I wouldn't mind if tourism was balanced to a point that most games require the Internet boost to win. But for the games where you don't need it, I do not want to wait two eras for a tech unlock when I already have all the influence I need.

Considering that AI bonuses become strongest during that period, and that the biggest swings in war/diplomacy can happen when ideologies emerge, forcing a cultural victory player to 'stick it out' until Telecom is like saying that a science victory player is forced to 'stick it out' until the end just because they have a 5 tech lead in the modern era. Your influence may dwindle somehow, and this forced window of time gives other players (especially diplo players) time to mess with the late-game resolutions and tenets to muck with your lead. It also lets the AI coalition-build a little more reliably. All in all, I think your impression of victory needs to adapt - you don't win until you see the splash and - until then - other players have a chance to bring you down or win on their own.

G

 

[Gazebo]

If tourism victories are consistently happening too early, we could look at the Arena. Its the epitome of accidental tourism generation.

The early-ness of it isn't necessarily the issue - it's also the suddenness and the passivity of it.

G

 

[pineappledan]

One other issue to address w.r.t. the cultural victory is that someone who reached influential with all civs in Industrial is now just as likely to win as someone who reached influential in early information. Once 2+ people have reached the bar, the only thing that matters is tech and production in a single city. And so we return to the days of tech being the bottleneck for victory.