New Version - November 6th (11-6)

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No it does even progress or authority empires still plop great people I always do.

Tradition just helps focus on that but it's not exclusive to kingdoms.

Tradition is not exclusively with culture nor is progress science nor authority domination. They help but playstyles switch midgame.
 
No it does even progress or authority empires still plop great people I always do.

Tradition just helps focus on that but it's not exclusive to kingdoms.

Tradition is not exclusively with culture nor is progress science nor authority domination. They help but playstyles switch midgame.
No its crap for the other two trees because it strongly encourages a smaller number of cities. I'm not going to redo that discussion, but you are free to find the thread where we discussed the changes to aesthetics (into the new artistry). At the time everyone agreed that culture for great people wasn't a good choice for a policy opener
 
Yeah, great people generation can be slightly useful at best for authority/progress, but then really only if you're already ahead with wonders or already snowballing hard with an early lead. It's very much "Win more" type situation. It doesn't help you at all if you're trying to catch up
 
I most often take progress and authority, fealty if i get a religion, aesthetics if I'm tradition, and statecraft never. If anything statecraft not being terrible would be a more interesting option than nerfing fealty to me, but I don't know, maybe I play weird.
 
I most often take progress and authority, fealty if i get a religion, aesthetics if I'm tradition, and statecraft never. If anything statecraft not being terrible would be a more interesting option than nerfing fealty to me, but I don't know, maybe I play weird.

I try to play in a "normal" way like the AI does, i've never even thought of starting authority after finishing progress but now that I really think about it, its probly true authority is currently beating out statecraft and aesthetics as they all stand (I dont consider my playstyle "wide" but I just expand whenever I can, to me thats playing normally - and it is also what the AI does).

And taking progress first is a given to me as things stand but if I had started with authority, i'd definitely want to be taking progress next. im still not gonna, cause the AI never will do that, but it sucks if thats the better option

Fealty just caught a hearty nerf with terrible timing for being forced to take the castle policy when you dont need it, and then not having religious discounts when you do need them... if its really nerfed any further Im not so sure that any of these branches would be competing with authority/progress. I agree statecraft and artistry need fixing more than fealty needs further nerfing.
 
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I try to play in a "normal" way like the AI does, i've never even thought of starting authority after finishing progress but now that I really think about it, its probly true authority is currently beating out statecraft and aesthetics as they all stand (I dont consider my playstyle "wide" but I just expand whenever I can, to me thats playing normally - and it is also what the AI does).

And taking progress first is a given to me as things stand but if I had started with authority, i'd definitely want to be taking progress next. im still not gonna, cause the AI never will do that, but it sucks if thats the better option

Fealty just caught a hearty nerf with terrible timing for being forced to take the castle policy when you dont need it, and then not having religious discounts when you do need them... if its really nerfed any further Im not so sure that any of these branches would be competing with authority/progress. I agree statecraft and artistry need fixing more than fealty needs further nerfing.
Actually the AI will occasionally take two ancient era policy trees. I can distinctly remember an AI Sweden going tradition -> authority like a month ago. Its an interesting way to add some variety to the game when I get bored

I don't like statecraft, but to be fair I've disliked statecraft basically forever.
 
I don't understand why Statecraft lost 1 happiness on Chanceries in favor of the happiness on trade routes. If I'm playing wide wide in the Med, I could easily have 15 happiness from Fealty (puppets seem to love building Castles anyway) vs a max of eight. And even that requires building war score killers (aka caravans) and hoping nothing goes wrong with them, and is at the end of the tree vs the beginning for Fealty. So really, for quite awhile, its 15 vs 0.

And then that forces me to at least sorta care about the religion game in order to not waste the rest of Fealty. And ironically, when I'm doing well in religion is when I least need that happiness least probably. With other capital based stuff, I guess Statecraft is supposed to be kinda the tall tree now, but it'd be nice to feel like more of a choice. I know this is simplistic analysis, and there are caveats, but I don't like there being such an overwhelming default to extra wide. I guess the other way would be to somehow limit Fealty's happiness, and have nothing reward extra wide. I wouldn't like that, but at least it would bring some choice back. Right now, I'm dramatically more successful in my wide wide Fealty games than the other two.

(I hadn't thought about trying AuthPro, I guess that's something of an alternative, maybe)
 
civpuppet.png


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Edit: mouse is hovering over culture of the puppet city if it's not clear. The city has 0 culture buildings fwiw.
 
I haven't played a huge amount in 11.1.x but there's been a LOT of farm destruction events.
Is this intended to nerf farms a bit? seems somewhat excessive.
 
In what way? I understand that the policy pacing doesn’t mesh with all play styles, but it does seem to get more play overall than the other two branches.
Fealty has as said before had the fun taken out a bit with the changes, it just needed a bit of a debuff instead,
 
Actually the AI will occasionally take two ancient era policy trees. I can distinctly remember an AI Sweden going tradition -> authority like a month ago.

Feel like i've played a million games but ive never ever seen that! if I do ever see them do it its open season for policy picking tho =)

Right now, I'm dramatically more successful in my wide wide Fealty games than the other two.

I play standard continents++, I shrunk the map script to be slightly smaller and I lowered the water line to compensate- so the result is an overall slightly smaller world than standard, but with roughly the same amount of available land. I typically end up with 9-14 cities self settled by the renaissance as i'm not going to ignore decent available land for worry over my science / culture penalties (again, not something the AI would ever do either, if they see decent land they will settle it sooner or later - that is normal playing). the AI in my games always have between 9-14 cities to that point as well unless something went really wrong for them. and yeah even at 9 cities, fealty currently looks by far the best option.

some of the most glaring outliers:

openers- monasteries VS increased % CS rewards VS increased GP generation (like a garden offers) - monasteries are tangible, progress synergied immediate benefits that reduce unhappiness through science and help you grow / get through techs quickly. CS rewards are a very random bonus mechanic that cannot be relied upon and does nothing for happiness regardless, GP generation is looking too far down the road and offers literally nothing immediately. In classic / medieval eras you want to show some immediate results because we're still early in the game that snowballing matters. these choices are not even close to each other.

scalers - tons of passive gold and food in each city VS tons of passive culture and science in each city (both of which directly impact happiness) VS ... extra CS influence on diplo units I have to produce? wow, lets be serious now.

finishers - raw stats in each city that directly impact happiness plus the ability to buy late game golden ages with faith VS more clutch late game golden ages and exclusive dig sites / ability to buy raw tourism with faith VS .... sporadic bursts of stats when a congress convenes that will do zero for my city happiness plus the ability to buy great diplomats in industrial (how many embassies are still available at that point? would I rather spend thousands of faith to gain some influence or buy diplo units with gold hmmmmm) plus a seemingly meaningless lowering of policy cost to unlock world wonders - isnt it a rare sight to unlock a wonder that late in the game you arent already meeting the policy reqs for? It literally never happens to me. again, fealty and aesthetics looking good and SC is very close to being entirely useless.

2 policies in- Serfdom is available to fealty, granting even more gold and culture as raw city stats that directly affects happiness, it is an immediately passive boost to culture by at least 30 points nationwide (9 cities) and usually more than that for me honestly considering all the extra food my cities have. that kind of culture injection will get you through the rest of the tree a lot quicker, and what do either of the other 2 trees have to offer to compete with that kind of culture 2 policies in? well.. nothing.
 
In what way? I understand that the policy pacing doesn’t mesh with all play styles, but it does seem to get more play overall than the other two branches.

In fact there are three issues in one thread that people are complaining about :

1 - Fealty timing : Organized Religion comes online too late now. I understand that you want to keep the tree balance for founder and non-founder but as it stands, founder are semi-screwed by fealty unless you are playing the missionary spamming game.

2 - Statecraft : many people can't still understand why the tree is so flavoured toward tall. Except the science for Constabularies and Police Stations( seriously this building comes online in ATOMIC ERA ). vote and spy are as good for both. Culture in the capital, happiness per trade route and finisher's yields are clearly better for tall plays.

3 - artistry : the opener has not got the greatest timing if you come from progress or authority but you can still get something from it. Then comes the choice between zero happiness or zero yield :), oops sorry 1 science and 1 culture ^^

I think this sums up the different issues.

@Deadstarre yes with 9 + cities, sc is nearly useless unless you really want to get some early world religion and you fear an early city-state sanction
 
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I really don't like the statecraft opener. Those quest yields don't scale with number of cities and generally aren't that impactful. When pursuing a CS heavy strategy, I'm not focusing on quests I'm focusing on CS yields, votes, and chanceries

I think artistry is fine overall but could do with some rearranging. I'd make the right path have the good wide policies, and the left path the good tall policies, this should be flexible enough.
 
I have DP's with China and Siam.

Siam has that DP with me, and one with Songhai.

Songhai DoW's China.

I am now at war with Songhai, but Siam is not. (They've never been at war against each other, so there's no cooling-off issue.)

Is this how it's supposed to work -- DP's drag you in on a first-hand basis (me), but not second-hand (Siam, due to me)?
 
I have DP's with China and Siam.

Siam has that DP with me, and one with Songhai.

Songhai DoW's China.

I am now at war with Songhai, but Siam is not. (They've never been at war against each other, so there's no cooling-off issue.)

Is this how it's supposed to work -- DP's drag you in on a first-hand basis (me), but not second-hand (Siam, due to me)?

Correct. No daisy chains.
 
I really don't like the statecraft opener. Those quest yields don't scale with number of cities and generally aren't that impactful. When pursuing a CS heavy strategy, I'm not focusing on quests I'm focusing on CS yields, votes, and chanceries

I think artistry is fine overall but could do with some rearranging. I'd make the right path have the good wide policies, and the left path the good tall policies, this should be flexible enough.

I think it makes sense to take this back to the policy balancing threads for each branch, I’m getting confused. I’m also on vacation in Cali and...uh...enjoying myself so it’s possible I’ll enjoy this more tomorrow. Or later.
 
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