Obama to call for repeal of DADT in State of the Union

[MobBoss]

That actually makes sense MobBoss, I was initially under the impression that you were speaking in broad terms, as opposed to an army specific type thing, but with that tone in your voice I have no choice but to rape you too.

Well, I didnt mean to have any tone in my writing, and I am glad my point came across ok. Communication is weird like that sometimes.

 

[useless]

So whilst we're concentrating on homosexual sexual predators, let us remember that most rapes are committed by heterosexuals. But lets ignore that and focus our blatant prejudice against the gays.

 

[warpus]

Well, I didnt mean to have any tone in my writing, and I am glad my point came across ok. Communication is weird like that sometimes.

Yep.

But if you're going to make the homosexuals hide their sexual orientation, the fair thing to do would be to do that to everyone, and kick anyone out of the army who says that they are heterosexual, too.

Just so it's fair across the board, and hey, if your theory is right, this move would further lower cases of sexual predators in the military.

 

[Gustave5436]

As the saying goes, 'harassment is in the eye of the beholder', which can (and does) result in a pretty wide definition of what harassement is or is not.

What saying? Sexual harassment = creation of hostile workplace environment, and/or making unwanted sexual advances and/or coercing a co-worker (generally subordinate) to engage in sexual activities with oneself. This is an objective set of criteria, which everyone but the misogynistic harasser himself can see plain as day.

Telling someone this at my workplace, even in jest, can get you discharged in a heartbeat. Thats how sensitive it is.

Even if it's just a joke, that is equivalent to creation of a hostile workplace environment (if not a threat which really should be taken seriously) and regulations against sexual harassment should be enforced for the protection of both men and women who would otherwise be forced to endure this harassment, which would, incidentally, only become more severe/dangerous over time, if not curtailed immediately.

 

[BasketCase]

I think the last few pages (and moderator actions) are a good illustration of why we should definitely NOT repeal DADT. Because the mere discussion of the subject causes people to lose their heads and get homicidal on each other. As a race, humans are not ready to deal with this topic rationally. Mix gays and straights openly, and there will be violence.

That's why the solution is simply to keep your damn mouths shut. If we don't mention the topic, there can't be an argument. DADT allows gays to serve in the military, without causing them to decapitate each other with E-tools.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm with ya!

People get upset when discussing opinions, so I believe there should be a new rule for CFC-OT. Do not express your opinion, lets have a DADT on opinions!

But, that's just my opinion.

edit: I have a counteroffer. LNMSABDAE

Let's Not Make Such A Big Deal About Everything. So what someone's gay. So what someone's not comfortable with other people around him being gay. So what?

SOWHAT would have been a better acronym. Are there army fellers who can turn SOWHAT into that acronym?

 

[RedRalph]

I think the last few pages (and moderator actions) are a good illustration of why we should definitely NOT repeal DADT. Because the mere discussion of the subject causes people to lose their heads and get homicidal on each other. As a race, humans are not ready to deal with this topic rationally. Mix gays and straights openly, and there will be violence.

That's why the solution is simply to keep your damn mouths shut. If we don't mention the topic, there can't be an argument. DADT allows gays to serve in the military, without causing them to decapitate each other with E-tools.

I'd go further. I think none of the following topics should ever be discussed

politics
race
sports
religion
burnt pot roast
people's mothers
etc

 

[El_Machinae]

Sound-
Off
Within,
Halt
Adversarial
Talk

 

[PiMan]

I think the last few pages (and moderator actions) are a good illustration of why we should definitely NOT repeal DADT. Because the mere discussion of the subject causes people to lose their heads and get homicidal on each other. As a race, humans are not ready to deal with this topic rationally. Mix gays and straights openly, and there will be violence.

That's why the solution is simply to keep your damn mouths shut. If we don't mention the topic, there can't be an argument. DADT allows gays to serve in the military, without causing them to decapitate each other with E-tools.

What makes Americans incapable of acting reasonably, when there is no such violence problem in the military forces of almost every other developed nation? Your tone also suggests you don't think any gay people should be out of the closet in day to day life either.

 

[Formaldehyde]

What makes Americans incapable of acting reasonably, when there is no such violence problem in the military forces of almost every other developed nation?

I would say that is directly a result of so many fundamentalists being involved in the US military. I bet in the other countries which has successfully integrated gays and straights that the percentage is much lower, and their influence on that organization's behavior is almost non-existent.

I think the other reason is that homophobia is still rampant in the US, so it makes sense that so many US servicemen suffer from the same problem.

 

[MobBoss]

I would say that is directly a result of so many fundamentalists being involved in the US military. I bet in the other countries which has successfully integrated gays and straights that the percentage is much lower, and their influence on that organization's behavior is almost non-existent.

I think the other reason is that homophobia is still rampant in the US, so it makes sense that so many US servicemen suffer from the same problem.

Couldnt be more wrong.

 

[RedRalph]

Couldnt be more wrong.

How can you possibly know that?

 

[MobBoss]

How can you possibly know that?

Because our military isnt ridden with fundamentalists as he alleges, and this is in no way the basis for DADT in any event.

I also think the 'homophobia in the US' card is a bit overplayed. I mean do you really think as little as 20 years ago a show named "Queer Eye for the Modern Guy" would have been allowed let alone be a success?

 

[DinoDoc]

1) There is no right to serve in the military. Hence the reason we tolerate and encourage forms of discrimination which would be illegal elsewhere. This is why I find talk of how offensive it is that the military is discriminating against groups of people to be amusing.

2) The only valid area of discussion wrt DADT is if its existance or removal will help or hinder the unit cohesion of the armed forces. The evidence thus far would tend to argue that its removal from the lawbooks would have minimal impact on the unit cohesion or morale of the armed forces.

3) That being said there are a few areas that would have to be ironed out in order to smoothe out the transition (fraternization rules, housing, etc.) before the removal can be put into effect which is what I assume the year long delay is for studying.

 

[RedRalph]

2) The only valid area of discussion wrt DADT is if its existance or removal will help or hinder the unit cohesion of the armed forces. The evidence thus far would tend to argue that its removal from the lawbooks would have minimal impact on the unit cohesion or morale of the armed forces.

I'm afraid the civilians will decide that, not the military.

 

[DinoDoc]

I'm afraid the civilians will decide that, not the military.

Then it would already have been done if Obama cared not a whit how it would effect the armed forces.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Couldnt be more wrong.

I had a feeling you would think so.

Hunting People for Jesus: Growing Fundamentalism in the U.S. Military

Spoiler :

Hunting People for Jesus: Growing Fundamentalism in the U.S. Military

After revelations that some American soldiers were given Bibles and encouraged to "hunt people for Jesus," the Pentagon on Monday denied allegations that the U.S. military allows its personnel to seek the conversion of Afghans to Christianity. But while the copies of the New Testament translated into Pashtun and jaw-dropping video from Bagram may seem like exceptions that prove the rule of American prohibition on proselytizing by the military, they are just the latest episodes in the disturbing rise in influence of Christian conservatives in the United States armed services.

As Jeremy Scahill detailed in the Huffington Post, the incidents first reported on Al Jazeera are an affront both to the U.S. military code of conduct and America's Afghan allies:

The center of this evangelical operation is at the huge US base at Bagram, one of the main sites used by the US military to torture and indefinitely detain prisoners.

In a video obtained by Al Jazeera and broadcast Monday, Lieutenant-Colonel Gary Hensley, the chief of the US military chaplains in Afghanistan, is seen telling soldiers that as followers of Jesus Christ, they all have a responsibility "to be witnesses for him."

"The special forces guys - they hunt men basically. We do the same things as Christians, we hunt people for Jesus. We do, we hunt them down," he says.

"Get the hound of heaven after them, so we get them into the kingdom. That's what we do, that's our business."

As it turns out, that has indeed been the business of Christian conservatives in the U.S. armed services since 9/11. In word and deed, evangelicals in recent years have aggressively boosted their visibility and influence within the American military.

An early warning came in 2003 in the guise of Lt. General William Boykin.

Boykin, who later became a deputy under secretary of defense, claimed during speeches to prayer groups and breakfasts that militant Islamists sought to destroy America ''because we're a Christian nation.'' General Boykin also explained to evangelical audiences that Muslims worship an ''idol'' and not ''a real God.'' While President Bush expressed his disagreement (noting Boykin "''didn't reflect my opinion" and "it just doesn't reflect what the government thinks"), Boykin remained on the job.

The U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs has been a hotbed of evangelical activism - and controversy. While cadets in 2004 distributed leaflets at dinner place settings for a screening of "The Passion of the Christ, football coach Fisher DeBerry displayed a sign in the team's locker room proclaiming, "I am a Christian first and last. I am a member of Team Jesus Christ." In May, 2005, Lutheran minister and Captain MeLinda Morton was removed from her post after warning evangelical Christians were trying to "subvert the system" in trying to win converts among cadets at the Academy. A June 2005 study at USAFA described other incidents of religious intolerance, insensitivity and inappropriate proselytizing, and concluded:

"Additionally, some faculty members and coaches consider it their duty to profess their faith and discuss this issue in their classrooms in furtherance of developing cadets' spirituality."

In the wake of the Brady report and complaints from Military Religious Freedom Foundation founder Mike Weinstein (himself a graduate of the Academy), the Air Force in October 2005 moved to withdraw a "code of ethics" document which permitted chaplains to evangelize military personnel who were not affiliated with any faith. ("I will not proselytize from other religious bodies," it read, "but I retain the right to evangelize those who are not affiliated.") Still, even that minor restriction produced an avalanche of opposition from Focus on the Family, the Christian Coalition and other groups which protested that the new guidelines abridged "the constitutional right of military chaplains to pray according to their faith."

Undaunted, the push to proselytize in the U.S. military continues. In 2007, an inspector general's report highlighted ethics violations among current and former officers, including two major generals, for appearing in uniform for a promotional and fundraising video for the evangelical group Christian Embassy. As the Washington Post noted, the report "offers a vivid picture of how inappropriately intertwined Christian Embassy had become with Pentagon operations by the time the video, with its extensive scenes inside the Pentagon, was filmed in 2004." Nonetheless, the New York Times reported earlier this year that military personnel were shown videos featuring football's Terry Bradshaw professing his Christian religion as part of an official military production dealing with depression, suicide and "the importance of faith."

The aggressive campaign for military converts is producing a climate of fear and intimdation in the armed forces. Specialist Jeremy Hall sued the Army after a superior officer interrupted his meeting for atheists and free-thinkers by proclaiming, "People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!" In another case, Army Specialist and Iraq Purple Heart recipient Dustin Chalker filed a lawsuit after being subjected to a mandatory ceremony that began and ended with a Christian prayer. As he put it:

"The Army enforces policies against racism and sexism, but doesn't bat an eye at these kinds of religious discrimination. Why is it acceptable that soldiers are unable to serve this nation without attending state-led religious practices they find offensive and false?"

Of course, it isn't acceptable, not under Central Command's General Order Number One and myriad other guidelines issued by the Pentagon before or since. Tragically, as the United States wages a global struggle against terrorists espousing a virulent strain of Islamic fundamentalism, fundamentalists in the ranks of the American military are betraying its values - and jeopardizing its mission

Link to video.

Christian Fundamentalism as a Instrument of US Military Doctrine

Snake Oil Sellers of the Christian Right?

Spoiler :

Christian Fundamentalism as a Instrument of US Military Doctrine

Snake Oil Sellers of the Christian Right?

The U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs came under heavy criticism earlier this month from Muslim and religious freedom advocacy groups after it invited to a conference three self-professed "former terrorists" with strong links to the Christian right.

Collectively known as the "3-X Terrorists", Walid Shoebat, Kamel Saleem and Zacharia Anani are front line soldiers in the U.S. "culture wars", a discursive battle over "values" and hot-button issues ranging from abortion to radical Islam.

The men collected 13,000 dollars for their appearance at the 50th annual Academy Assembly, a four-day conference attended by 200 international students and Air Force cadets and organised under the auspices of the school’s political science department.

To supporters, the 3-X represent "moderate" voices; they are self-professed Muslim extremists who converted to evangelical Christianity and are now exposing Islam for what it really is. To critics, they are frauds, accused of fabricating much of their past exploits as mass murderers in order to peddle their Islamophobia on the lecture circuit and on cable news networks, including Fox News Corp. and CNN.

But it is their relationship with political leaders and organisations across the right-wing Christian spectrum that seems to have elicited the greatest concern from critics.

"These men are frauds, but that is not the point. They are part of a dark and frightening war by the Christian right against tolerance that, in the moment of another catastrophic terrorist attack on American soil, would make it acceptable to target and persecute all Muslims," wrote former New York Times reporter Chris Hedges in a widely circulated online essay.

"They offer a window into a worldview that is destroying the United States. It has corrupted the Republican party. It has colored the news media. It has entered into the everyday clichés we use to explain ourselves to ourselves. It is ignorant and racist, but it is also deadly," he said.

Controversy seems to follow Shoebat and his associates wherever they go. Members of the public and the news media were not allowed to attend a student-run forum featuring the three at Stanford University. Princeton University cancelled a scheduled talk by Shoebat in 2005 because it was perceived as being "too inflammatory". In 2006, Columbia University restricted public attendance at a speech with Shoebat and former Nazi Hitler youth and German soldier Hilmar Von Campe only three hours before the event was to take place.

The Military Religious Freedom Organisation (MRFF), a group that is suing the federal government to combat what it describes as "creeping evangelism" in the armed forces, also denounced the visit.

The relationship between the evangelical Christian Right and 3-X runs deep, with connections to Reverend John Hagee’s Christian-Zionist Christians United for Israel (CUFI), as well as Focus on the Family, part of the para-church organisations that promote social conservative public policy in the U.S., and have maintained close relations with the George W. Bush administration.

Shoebat says claims to be a former Palestinian Liberation Organisation operative who attacked Jews, planted bombs in Israel, and in 1993 converted to Christianity. He released a book in 2007 entitled "Why We Want to Kill You", and appeared in a purported documentary film called "Obsession: Radical Islam’s War Against the West."

The film was marketed in part by self-described "pro-Israel" groups, and featured interviews with Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz, dubious "investigative journalist" Steve Emerson, Itimar Marcus of the Israel-based Palestinian Media Watch, and Daniel Pipes, a controversial scholar of medieval Islamic history whose website campuswatch.com sparked criticism in 2002 for its alleged McCarthyesque attacks on Middle East studies professors.

Shoebat has received the support of other neo-conservative pundits too. His website features a quote from Frank Gaffney, of the Centre for Security Policy: "In the 25 years I have been in Washington I have never heard anything so extraordinary and the truth so eloquently told by someone like this [Walid Shoebat]."

In the summer of 2006, Shoebat also spoke at the "Night to Honour Israel", a three-day event presented by Pastor Hagee’s CUFI, which aims to mobilise Christian Zionists as a political force, according to the San Antonio Express.

Shoebat, Saleem, and Anani are also slated to appear on a panel of ex-terrorists at the CUFI Washington convention in March. Other notable speakers include independent Connecticut Senator Joe Lieberman, Pipes, Gaffney, and Clifford May, president of the Foundation for the Defence of Democracies.

Saleem, who runs an organisation called Koome Ministries, says he was indoctrinated by the PLO as a child, and ran weapons into Israel via underground tunnels underneath the Golan Heights. But analysts argue there are no accounts of such an incident. Saleem also claims he was descended from the "grand wazir of Islam", a nonsensical term that Saleem rebutted on his website.

"I take responsibility for choosing that inaccurate term. I did so to obscure both title and geographical location of a cleric to whom I am related," he wrote.

The Koome Ministries website is quite clear on its purpose: first, to wake up, educate and train the Christian and Jewish communities on the impending dangers of radical Islam; second, to reach Muslims with the redemptive message of Christ; and third, to teach the Church "relationship evangelism" in order to reach Muslims with the Truth.

The site asks visitors to pray for specific Muslim nations, and provides videos of indigenous groups that are "ripe for the gospel:. The site currently features a video prayer appeal for a Berber group in southern Morocco, asking viewers to "pray for Southern Shilha Berbers will truly become Africa’s free men and women in Christ: pray against the spirits of Islam and mysticism that have kept them bound for generations."

Anani claims he has killed at least 223 people as a Lebanese militant during the early 1970s and was "almost beheaded" for converting to Christianity. A 2007 report in the Canadian Windsor Star cast doubts on his jihadi past; according to Tom Quiggin, a Canadian court-qualified expert of global jihadism, some of Anani’s accounts did not correspond with actual historical events.

"Mr. Anani is not an individual who rates the slightest degree of credibility, based on the stories that he has told," said Quiggin, a senior fellow at the Centre of Excellence for National Security in Singapore.

Sheobat and Saleem are U.S. citizens, and Anani is Canadian.

Link to video.

 

[DinoDoc]

Seriously? Blog posts are your evidence? Why not quote forum posts instead? Re video #1: U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan. As you should have learned from the stupid contraversey over the Jesus Rifles awhile back. Re Video #2: Even President Bush distanced himself from the man's comments.

 

[MobBoss]

I had a feeling you would think so.

And thus you roll out the usual bevvy of biased websites. Quite predictable.

Point being, of course you can show some people thinking that way. Some. Thats not proof its systemic across the width and breadth of the entire military.

There are in excess of over a million people in uniform at any given time. You show proof that a handfull here meet your demograph and allege its indicative of the entire military?

Laughable.

If I show you proof of a group of atheist soldiers would an allegation from me that the military is atheist be accurate?

 

[RedRalph]

Then it would already have been done if Obama cared not a whit how it would effect the armed forces.

No, the civilians consider what the military think, but in the end they decide. The executive decision lies with the C-in-C, he is in charge, not the military.