Obama to call for repeal of DADT in State of the Union

[useless]

I need not quote you, seeing as your whole attitude to this subject gives us all the information about it.

DADT does not allow everyone to serve in the military to serve with minimum of fuss, as it actively removes all openly homosexual people from it. Benefits? Maybe not for you, seeing as you've taken it upon yourself to become the defender of heterosexuality against this "Gay threat".

And how exactly does this website disagree with me? You, before, even stated that the reason you voiced your views was because of the reaction, and responses you get, which you've even stated annoys, and offends others.

You compare not being able to be true to yourself and admit what you are, to an event which has nothing to do with this thread at all. Stay classy BasketCase.

Of course, as the raging pinacle of heterosexuality, you have nothing to worry about in regards to homosexuality and the way it is dealt with by others, but let us forget, if that is possible, that not everyone is straight, and not everyone wants to be discriminated because of an attribute of their person.

 

[MobBoss]

So you admit that you view, and the military views, homosexuality as something that is wrong and hurts people? How is that not homophobic?

I never said it was wrong and that it hurts people, I said it was no condusive to military service, and that timelines existing to hasten the process are there to protect homosexuals from harm, not the other way around.

I coudn't care less about whether it's your job to sack people from the army purely on the basis on their sexuality which is homophobic no matter much you try to slant it, and say that it's for the "good of the individual" and "the service", as if you're implying that homosexuality is wrong and evil.

I am implying nothing of the sort by stating that. You seem to forget that the military is a selective service. Not everyone is up for military life. And right or wrong, its current policy that says that the homosexual lifestyle is not condusive to military service. It says nothing about it being wrong or evil. Those are your words.

And by soldiers welfare do you mean that they could perhaps be beaten up, or subjected to harrassment and abuse, something which you've stated is lacking within the army, regardless of the policy or not?

Its not a common occurance because we take such steps to mitigate it. Are you saying we are wrong in doing so?

Honorable discharge or not, the policy still requires people to be sacked from their job, purely on their sexuality.

No...not on their sexuality...on their behavior.

Now imagine, if you will, with your brain, the brain that god gave you, if he existed, in your head. Imagine if there was a policy that existed that forced people to leave their jobs and/or be discharged and sacked because of their religion, race or other factors, would you still stand by such a law, and defend it? Somehow, i doubt it, because no doubt you'd realise how wrong it is, and that it is bigotted.

Again...its not called a selective service for nothing. No one has a 'right' to serve.

But for some reason you fail to understand that this is the same with DADT.

No, you fail to understand why its different. There is a broad selection of behaviors that also result in discharge from military ranks because such behavior is not condusive to military service. Homosexuality is just one of them.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Without False Rape Accusations, Victor Fehrenbach Never Would've Become a DADT Hero

In order to defend himself against rape accusations made by Cameron Shaner, decorated Iraqi vet Air Force Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach was forced to tell investigators his side of the story. Namely, that he met the man accusing him of rape of a gay chat site, and they had consensual sex. Fehrenbach's story helped clear him of the rape wrap rap, but his admission that he had consensual sex made its way to Air Force brass. Fehrenbach was willing to go quietly with an honorable discharge, until Shaner pushed for a dishonorable one after growing irate there would be no criminal charges. And that, folks, is the short version of how Fehrenbach came under the assault of Don't Ask Don't Tell — to become one of its leading opponents.

Spoiler :

Shaner, the man who put Fehrenbach on the brink, was a Boise State University criminal justice student when he accused Fehrenbach of assaulting him. Shaner served 3Ý years in the Army in the 1990s, including time in Bosnia, and was honorably discharged as a private first class.

According to the Veterans Administration, Shaner has a 100 percent service-connected disability. Shaner told the Idaho Statesman he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder and skeletal injuries. He lives in Arizona.

In text messages the night they met, Shaner expressed sexual interest in Fehrenbach, admiring photos of Fehrenbach's naked body and calling him "stud." Arriving at Fehrenbach's home, Shaner disrobed and joined him in the hot tub. Observed Boise police detective Vucinich in his report: "It should be noted that (Shaner) could not give me an answer as to why he, himself, had gotten naked."

Boise police did not find evidence of rape, said spokeswoman Lynn Hightower. Chief Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Roger Bourne said the county decided against prosecution.

The Air Force says its investigation cleared Fehrenbach and discredited Shaner.

Five days before his encounter with Fehrenbach, Shaner contacted the Air Force Office of Special Investigations at Mountain Home. He was accompanied by an acquaintance who Shaner said had told him gay men were inviting military men to "HIV parties" in an attempt to infect them with the virus, according to the Air Force.

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/20/pilot-dadt-discharge-obama/

Spoiler :

MADDOW: We begin tonight with a man named Lieutenant Colonel Victor Fehrenbach — an F-15 fighter pilot, an 18-year veteran of the United States Air Force. On September 11th, Lieutenant Colonel Fahrenbach was picked to be part of the initial alert crew immediately following the 9/11 attacks. The following year in 2002, he deployed to Kuwait where he flew combat missions over Afghanistan attacking Taliban and al Qaeda targets. After the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, Lieutenant Colonel Fahrenbach deployed there, flying combat missions in support of “Operation Iraqi Freedom.” Over the span of his career, he has flown 88 combat missions including missions that were the longest combat sorties in the history of his squadron. He logged more than 2,000 flying hours, nearly 1,500 fighter hours, 400 combat hours. Lieutenant Colonel Fahrenbach is also highly decorated. He’s received nine air medals including one for heroism.

After 18 years of active duty in the Air Force, this experienced, decorated, fighter pilot says he ready and willing to deploy again. He is ready to do whatever his country and the United States Air Force ask of him. The military is now firing him. He’s just been informed by the U.S. military that his career is over. After 18 years of service less than two years shy of being able to retire with a full air force pension he’s being discharged from the U.S. air force under the military’s Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy.

Despite a record of documented heroism an unblemished career, despite the fact that he estimates the U.S. military spent roughly $25 million training him, Lieutenant Colonel Fehrenbach is being fired. He was informed of his impending discharge in September. He and his lawyer have tried to delay his appeal as long as possible — hoping the new president would fulfill the pledge he made as a candidate to repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. So far that hasn’t happened but today there were two important developments on the front. The first is the Obama administration’s decision to accept an appeals court ruling in favor of another discharged air force pilot essentially that ruling said the government has to prove why the continued service of a gay service member in this case a woman, is a threat to military discipline

MADDOW: You’ve been in the air force 18 years. What was your reaction when you found out you are being investigated and then discharged?

FEHRENBACH: I was devastated, absolutely devastated, Rachel. The air force has been my life, I was born on an air force base, the air force has been part of my family and I’ve served for 18 years and I was just two years short of retirement, so basically, I was faced with the end of my life as I knew it.

MADDOW: Were you expecting that you would at some point redeploy at the time that you found out they wanted you out?

FEHRENBACH: Absolutely. In fact, two weeks before this all came to light — or I’m sorry two weeks after this all came to light I was expected to deploy.

MADDOW: You were expected to deploy two weeks they told you they were going to take you out.

FEHRENBACH: Yes.

Link to video.


Link to video.

 

[MobBoss]

Seems like a smart guy. I wonder what part of DADT he didnt understand?

But fwiw, I dont agree with the decision to pursue charges against him. They should have just given him an admin discharge wth an honorable designation.

 

[BasketCase]

I need not quote you, seeing as

Yes. You do. Because you claimed I said something which I did not.

Your refusal to provide said quote is proof of guilt.

And how exactly does this website disagree with me?

Forum rules: don't piss off other members. (the fact that I break said forum rules all the time is unrelated to the fact that I should not be doing it ) The rest of society follows those same rules, as I already explained: you don't walk naked in public, you don't grope your girlfriend in restaurants, you don't yell "fire" in a crowded movie theater, you don't fight at a hockey game unless you are one of the players, and you don't run around telling people you're gay unless they ask.

Of course, as the raging pinacle of heterosexuality, you have nothing to worry about in regards to homosexuality and the way it is dealt with by others, but let us forget, if that is possible, that not everyone is straight, and not everyone wants to be discriminated because of an attribute of their person.

You're discriminating against me right now. I voiced an opinion you don't like, and you're being abusive.

 

[PiMan]

Forum rules: don't piss off other members. (the fact that I break said forum rules all the time is unrelated to the fact that I should not be doing it ) The rest of society follows those same rules, as I already explained: you don't walk naked in public, you don't grope your girlfriend in restaurants, you don't yell "fire" in a crowded movie theater, and you don't fight at a hockey game unless you are one of the players.

I already responded to this, but I'll try again from a different direction. You're right, we don't (or shouldn't) do those things, however saying "I'm gay" isn't in that list.

 

[RedRalph]

You folks just dont get it do you?

This is a policy that is going to have huge and wide sweeping effect upon our military during a time of already high tension and stress.

Why dont the two of you walk a few miles in those peoples shoes before you judge them so. Maybe it would give you both some appreciation for the situation.

No, you just don't get it. The Army does not exist outside society and the law. You don't get a special dispensation to ignore human rights until your more bigoted members feel ready to accept change. It didn't work with blacks and it won't work now.

Can't stand serving with gays? Tough, deal with it. I'm sure gays can't stand serving weith homophobes, but their (misguided) patriotism means they put up with it.

I would feel so much more respect for you if you would stop trying to pretend your concern is for disicpline and morale in the army and just admitted gays creep you out.

 

[nonconformist]

Apparently hardcore islamists with ak47s high on opium firing mortars are little more than an inconvenience to US marines, but a queer mincing his way into battle makes them evacuate their bowels and surrender to al quaeda

 

[MobBoss]

No, you just don't get it. The Army does not exist outside society and the law.

Certainly not....its more restrictive. Soldiers dont have the same rights as common citizens. Sorry.

You don't get a special dispensation to ignore human rights until your more bigoted members feel ready to accept change. It didn't work with blacks and it won't work now.

'Selective service' remember? No constitutional right to serve, remember? There is no human right issue at stake here because its not a human right to serve in the military. Never has been.

Can't stand serving with gays? Tough, deal with it. I'm sure gays can't stand serving weith homophobes, but their (misguided) patriotism means they put up with it.

Unfortunately, you cant up oars while in the middle of the river. As has been pointed out we got these little things going on called Iraq and Afghanistan. You may have heard of them.

I would feel so much more respect for you if you would stop trying to pretend your concern is for disicpline and morale in the army and just admitted gays creep you out.

Cant handle the truth? /whatever. Gays dont creep me out. Hell, where I live is one of the more liberal areas in the USA. I see that stuff all the time. My youngest daughter is a member of her high schools gay-straight club and has several gay friends. Something doesnt have to 'creep me out' for me to simply disagree with it, but still able to be tolerant of it.

 

[JollyRoger]

As has been pointed out we got these little things going on called Iraq and Afghanistan. You may have heard of them.

You want to kick volunteers out of the military during two wars over something as silly as this?

 

[MobBoss]

You want to kick volunteers out of the military during two wars over something as silly as this?

If they are not condusive to military service? Absolutely.

But the main reason is that its not generally considered a wise thing to rock the boat while negotiating rapids.

 

[JollyRoger]

If they are not condusive to military service? Absolutely.

But the main reason is that its not generally considered a wise thing to rock the boat while negotiating rapids.

How weak is the U.S. military when Afghanistan and Iraq are considered the rapids? I would think it would be highly unpatriotic to think of such insignificant forces as anything more than kiddie pools when compared to U.S. military might.

 

[warpus]

The metaphors in this thread have been outstanding.

 

[MobBoss]

How weak is the U.S. military when Afghanistan and Iraq are considered the rapids?

Its not a matter of being weak, its a matter of operational tempo. Something I dont think you appreciate at all for the military.

I would think it would be highly unpatriotic to think of such insignificant forces as anything more than kiddie pools when compared to U.S. military might.

Someone doesnt understand asymetrical warfare.

 

[JollyRoger]

Its not a matter of being weak, its a matter of operational tempo. Something I dont think you appreciate at all for the military.

Over 8 years against Afghanistan. Almost 7 years against Iraq. Are you saying gays can't slow dance?

Someone doesnt understand asymetrical warfare.

Yeah, but he left office over a year ago.

 

[holy king]

 

[MobBoss]

Over 8 years against Afghanistan. Almost 7 years against Iraq. Are you saying gays can't slow dance?

Fighting and quelling an insurgency is difficult. Historically, it takes 14-15 years usually to get things reasonably back to normal.....so, we are ahead of the game in Iraq and on par in Afghanistan.

Yeah, but he left office over a year ago.

No, I was referring to you. Bush actually deserves the credit for Iraq calming down when the surged worked. Not that you give any positive credit where credit was due.

 

[JollyRoger]

Fighting and quelling an insurgency is difficult. Historically, it takes 14-15 years usually to get things reasonably back to normal.....so, we are ahead of the game in Iraq and on par in Afghanistan.

So if it's conceded to be a 14-15 year endeaver, I think we have established a slow tempo.

Bush actually deserves the credit for Iraq calming down when the surged worked. Not that you give any positive credit where credit was due.

The surge wouldn't have been needed if Bush hadn't of blundered us into Iraq to begin with.

And again, I will point out that you are wanting to kick volunteers out of the military for a silly reason at a time you are expecting us to need as any good soldiers as we can get to keep up a high operational tempo (in your mind) and surge of a decade and a half or so.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The surge wouldn't have been needed if Bush hadn't of blundered us into Iraq to begin with.

That was no blunder. It was quite intentional. The neocons had been calling for the invasion of Iraq ever since the end of the first so-called war. And the sentiment from 9/11 gave the Bush administration the excuse to do so.

 

[sophie]

Seems like a smart guy. I wonder what part of DADT he didnt understand?

I don't understand this statement. I assumed you read the articles, which said he had no choice but to reveal his homosexuality. It was that or be brought up on rape charges.

Specific cases like that are one very good reason why I support repealing DADT.