I agree. Probably 4-500% easier. But having said that an earlier rush from fewer cities on normal speed should still have worked just fine. As long as you don't face too many LBs by the time you get to target number 2 you should have no problems with a highly promoted cat/phant machine.
One Legged Hatty (Immortal)
- Thread starter OneLeggedRhino
- Start date
I agree. Probably 4-500% easier. But having said that an earlier rush from fewer cities on normal speed should still have worked just fine. As long as you don't face too many LBs by the time you get to target number 2 you should have no problems with a highly promoted cat/phant machine.
OneLeggedRhino
King
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- 656
@Smilingrogue I don't think I have any confucianism, but Ragnar's other city has christianity (which spread to a city), and Gilg's city has Taoism, and they're both in spots worth having. Good idea on keeping another religion around, though. Thanks.
On marathon vs normal: If this were normal speed, I think the right move would have been to send half my stack in each direction. The initial 6 elephants + 6 cats + 2 archers was more than enough to sweep Ragnar's lands. I could have put all my reinforcements into a stack for Gilg, and attacked him while finishing the war with Ragnar. (After taking the 3rd city, with most of his troops, Ragnar wasn't a threat anymore). Same total number of troops, but attacking Gilg in 300 BC instead of 100 BC.
That probably would have been better this game, too. I hadn't realized how dominant elephants would be, especially with normal AI (not aggressive AI).
But I also really like cseanny's strategy of taking 4 cities and beelining construction. His attack hit significantly earlier.
Here's the save file from when I started building up for war, if anyone wants to try their hand at it.
On marathon vs normal: If this were normal speed, I think the right move would have been to send half my stack in each direction. The initial 6 elephants + 6 cats + 2 archers was more than enough to sweep Ragnar's lands. I could have put all my reinforcements into a stack for Gilg, and attacked him while finishing the war with Ragnar. (After taking the 3rd city, with most of his troops, Ragnar wasn't a threat anymore). Same total number of troops, but attacking Gilg in 300 BC instead of 100 BC.
That probably would have been better this game, too. I hadn't realized how dominant elephants would be, especially with normal AI (not aggressive AI).
But I also really like cseanny's strategy of taking 4 cities and beelining construction. His attack hit significantly earlier.
Here's the save file from when I started building up for war, if anyone wants to try their hand at it.
vranasm
Deity
this task force would last for ~2-3 cities on normal usually, depending how much collateral you would want to use.
Well maybe against Ghandi it could be useful for 5 cities, but against ragnar... no way I tell you. You would stuck after first 2 cities most probably.
I think you underestimate the production and reinforcement on normal speed especially from famous unit spammers. Some of them can give me good run for my money even on Monarch (as I found out yesterday when shadowing Monarch game, I look at you Gilgamesh here!)
WelshGandalf
King
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You're not comparing like with like. Cottages also give 2f.
Say you have one spare population point to assign. You can make him a representation-powered scientist giving 6C and 3GPP. Or, you could work a grasssland cottage, then when you grow pop work another such cottage, and then when your population goes up again assign a scienist. Now you are getting say 5C from your cottages (which will go up to 10+ later in the game depending on FS/financial/PP) and still getting your 6 beakers & 3 GPP from your scientist (of course you need the health/happy cap to do this so maybe this analysis is best suited to small cities where you are considering only working 2 or 3 tiles).
I think this is obviously better in the long term, but worse in the short term.
I typically win games much faster with more food/production so I have very little love for cottages or financial. Imo, once you learn to balance building research, wealth, growth, whip cycles, etc you end up in a much stronger position simply because you're able to grab A LOT more land so much earlier.
@Rhino
Nicely played game my friend.
@Rhino
Nicely played game my friend.
strijder20
Wallowing in irony
Attachments
OneLeggedRhino
King
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@cseanny Thanks! And thanks for the shadow game, it was really interesting to see how you'd play the map.
OneLeggedRhino
King
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2nd Settler Pump (Turns 375-439, Years 250-695 AD)
I'm moving to San Francisco, apartment hunting this week. I'm still playing this game, but it may be a few days between updates. Thanks for your patience.
Also, if anyone knows a strategy gaming group in SF, that would be most appreciated.
Last turnset, I finished Gilgamesh (except for 1 city for spying purposes). You can see the 3 cities I cleared here:
This turnset, it's time for more expansion. Step 1: Take Ragnar's city blocking the east.
Sure, we have open borders and I could just walk through it, but it's a good city, and this will simplify things later. In particular, it lets me create a channel for naval units, to kill the barbs and improve the seafood.
Then we make peace, and I gift him a seafood to get him to stop hating me. (Open borders helps spies.)
290: I squeeze in a deer-fish city south of Gilgamesh's capital:
See the barb ship? I have the Great Wall, and figure that will keep me safe. No dice. It enters my borders and kills the workboat. Which I suppose makes sense -- that a wall wouldn't protect against ships -- but still irks me. I wind up losing a few galleys to barbs, and tech metal casting to have a better option.
300: N Pig founded. Gets a floodplains too. With Rep scientists, these tiny cities are totally worth it.
Remember that Great General I had sitting around last turnset? I decide where to put him:
W Corn, the former Viking capital, will make an amazing whip / draft city. In particular, I intend to whip naval units. It will get my GGs, Heroic Epic and Globe Theater. Normally, that means putting a ton of hammers into buildings instead of HE-powered troops, but here, I have no need for troops until Astronomy, so I have plenty of time to set it up.
390: Civil Service completes. My commerce city is almost done with the palace, thanks to a 2-pop whip of a temple with tons of overflow.
410: A Great Prophet! Time for the Jewish shrine:
22 GPT, with a market on the way. Nice.
430: Palace is done in Commerce. Nice bump.
Later this turnset, I get another Great Prophet. My first thought is to settle him in my shrine city, but I realize that Commerce is making a ton more gold. And, with only the one commerce city, it probably always will. So it will be my Wall Street city, too. (Probably a specialist city will get Oxford.)
470: Alphabet completes. Time to spy. What can I steal?
Plenty of goodies from both of them. Excellent.
Also, I settle another city, working my way east:
This continuous expansion is why my research slider is so low. But the slider doesn't matter, and the actual rate of research is quite high, thanks to Rep specialists.
Next is Literature. None of the Aesthetics wonders have gone, so I like my odds at nabbing the Great Library.
I'll go for Optics after. Also gives me time to steal Iron Working.
490: All these eastern cities are costing me a ton. I build and whip the forbidden palace in Gilgamesh's former capital. Saves 19 GPT.
510: I take out that barb city, and find another fish.
It's not the right spot, though. Raze.
515: Aesthetics completes. I put my best production city on the Parthenon:
I get it 24 turns later. (No whips, since it's not a priority. Also, I swap to Caste about now, since most cities are either done with whips or not large enough for them yet.)
525: I get lucky with another happiness resource: Silver in N Clam.
I think there's a small, fixed chance per turn for each hill you work. So this happens a lot more in marathon than normal, and a lot more in a farms / hills economy than in a cottage economy.
Also in 525: Another city founded. 1SE of the barb city, which picks up the clams, also.
Next turn, Literature completes. Thebes makes the Great Library, and since I still haven't seen any Aesthetics wonders pop, I go Drama --> Music, with a pause for Metal Casting in there (when my galleys keep dying.)
545: Remember how I said I wanted a channel when I took Ragnar's city? Here it is in action:
Ships can enter a fort that's next to water, so they can go through the city and to the other side of the island. You can bridge a 3-tile path this way. Quite useful.
Around now, I also found another city:
5 forests worth leaving. Maybe this will make a good National Park city? We'll see.
590: My first spy is charged in Ragnar's city. I think about stealing techs:
But wind up stealing 500 G to get Music a bit faster. The techs will still be there next round, but the gold might be spent.
By the way, this spying is mostly driven by courthouses, plus a few spy specialists. That's part of why I so wanted to spy: Otherwise, all those free EPs would go to waste.
615: I complete music. No GA.
645: Machinery is almost done. I steal Iron Working, to keep going toward Optics:
And settle another city in the east:
Nothing great, but it gets a few farms and some hills and easily pays for itself. By the way, most of these cities just get a granary and courthouse, and either a library or forge (or neither if they're just to pick up one seafood).
Next turn, I lose the Great Library. Shame. At least I get some good failgold, which should get me to Optics a lot faster.
Nothing much for the next few turns. Machinery in 660, Compass in 680. I try to spy on Gilgamesh, but lose 3 spies. (It's just luck. He doesn't even have Alphabet.)
695: I grab another filler city. This is 1S of where Gilgamesh had a city, but that move gets it 2 more grasslands, which changes it from awful to worthwhile. It'll build wealth with the iron and run 2 specalists.
Sometime around now, I also land a Great Scientist. He can bulb Philosophy, but I can steal that from Gilgamesh (if I can just get lucky with a spy). I'll save him for a bulb later.
720: Optics completes. No foreign contact yet, so I like my odds for circumnavigation. Next turnset, I'll whip 2 carvels and go exploring.
I'm moving to San Francisco, apartment hunting this week. I'm still playing this game, but it may be a few days between updates. Thanks for your patience.
Also, if anyone knows a strategy gaming group in SF, that would be most appreciated.
Last turnset, I finished Gilgamesh (except for 1 city for spying purposes). You can see the 3 cities I cleared here:
Spoiler :
This turnset, it's time for more expansion. Step 1: Take Ragnar's city blocking the east.
Spoiler :
Sure, we have open borders and I could just walk through it, but it's a good city, and this will simplify things later. In particular, it lets me create a channel for naval units, to kill the barbs and improve the seafood.
Then we make peace, and I gift him a seafood to get him to stop hating me. (Open borders helps spies.)
290: I squeeze in a deer-fish city south of Gilgamesh's capital:
Spoiler :
See the barb ship? I have the Great Wall, and figure that will keep me safe. No dice. It enters my borders and kills the workboat. Which I suppose makes sense -- that a wall wouldn't protect against ships -- but still irks me. I wind up losing a few galleys to barbs, and tech metal casting to have a better option.
300: N Pig founded. Gets a floodplains too. With Rep scientists, these tiny cities are totally worth it.
Spoiler :
Remember that Great General I had sitting around last turnset? I decide where to put him:
Spoiler :
W Corn, the former Viking capital, will make an amazing whip / draft city. In particular, I intend to whip naval units. It will get my GGs, Heroic Epic and Globe Theater. Normally, that means putting a ton of hammers into buildings instead of HE-powered troops, but here, I have no need for troops until Astronomy, so I have plenty of time to set it up.
390: Civil Service completes. My commerce city is almost done with the palace, thanks to a 2-pop whip of a temple with tons of overflow.
410: A Great Prophet! Time for the Jewish shrine:
Spoiler :
22 GPT, with a market on the way. Nice.
430: Palace is done in Commerce. Nice bump.
Spoiler :
Later this turnset, I get another Great Prophet. My first thought is to settle him in my shrine city, but I realize that Commerce is making a ton more gold. And, with only the one commerce city, it probably always will. So it will be my Wall Street city, too. (Probably a specialist city will get Oxford.)
470: Alphabet completes. Time to spy. What can I steal?
Spoiler :
Plenty of goodies from both of them. Excellent.
Also, I settle another city, working my way east:
Spoiler :
This continuous expansion is why my research slider is so low. But the slider doesn't matter, and the actual rate of research is quite high, thanks to Rep specialists.
Next is Literature. None of the Aesthetics wonders have gone, so I like my odds at nabbing the Great Library.
Spoiler :
I'll go for Optics after. Also gives me time to steal Iron Working.
490: All these eastern cities are costing me a ton. I build and whip the forbidden palace in Gilgamesh's former capital. Saves 19 GPT.
Spoiler :
510: I take out that barb city, and find another fish.
Spoiler :
It's not the right spot, though. Raze.
515: Aesthetics completes. I put my best production city on the Parthenon:
Spoiler :
I get it 24 turns later. (No whips, since it's not a priority. Also, I swap to Caste about now, since most cities are either done with whips or not large enough for them yet.)
525: I get lucky with another happiness resource: Silver in N Clam.
Spoiler :
I think there's a small, fixed chance per turn for each hill you work. So this happens a lot more in marathon than normal, and a lot more in a farms / hills economy than in a cottage economy.
Also in 525: Another city founded. 1SE of the barb city, which picks up the clams, also.
Spoiler :
Next turn, Literature completes. Thebes makes the Great Library, and since I still haven't seen any Aesthetics wonders pop, I go Drama --> Music, with a pause for Metal Casting in there (when my galleys keep dying.)
545: Remember how I said I wanted a channel when I took Ragnar's city? Here it is in action:
Spoiler :
Ships can enter a fort that's next to water, so they can go through the city and to the other side of the island. You can bridge a 3-tile path this way. Quite useful.
Around now, I also found another city:
Spoiler :
5 forests worth leaving. Maybe this will make a good National Park city? We'll see.
590: My first spy is charged in Ragnar's city. I think about stealing techs:
Spoiler :
But wind up stealing 500 G to get Music a bit faster. The techs will still be there next round, but the gold might be spent.
By the way, this spying is mostly driven by courthouses, plus a few spy specialists. That's part of why I so wanted to spy: Otherwise, all those free EPs would go to waste.
615: I complete music. No GA.
Spoiler :
645: Machinery is almost done. I steal Iron Working, to keep going toward Optics:
Spoiler :
And settle another city in the east:
Spoiler :
Nothing great, but it gets a few farms and some hills and easily pays for itself. By the way, most of these cities just get a granary and courthouse, and either a library or forge (or neither if they're just to pick up one seafood).
Next turn, I lose the Great Library. Shame. At least I get some good failgold, which should get me to Optics a lot faster.
Spoiler :
Nothing much for the next few turns. Machinery in 660, Compass in 680. I try to spy on Gilgamesh, but lose 3 spies. (It's just luck. He doesn't even have Alphabet.)
Spoiler :
695: I grab another filler city. This is 1S of where Gilgamesh had a city, but that move gets it 2 more grasslands, which changes it from awful to worthwhile. It'll build wealth with the iron and run 2 specalists.
Spoiler :
Sometime around now, I also land a Great Scientist. He can bulb Philosophy, but I can steal that from Gilgamesh (if I can just get lucky with a spy). I'll save him for a bulb later.
720: Optics completes. No foreign contact yet, so I like my odds for circumnavigation. Next turnset, I'll whip 2 carvels and go exploring.
Just as a side note, I can't see how your espionage victims could spend their gold. They don't have Universal Suffrage, they don't have large armies, they don't know other civs to gift/trade it to, and they only have one city (which means basically no upkeep). So I would steal it when you'd rather have the gold, and steal techs when you'd rather have the techs... at least until they start meeting other civilizations they might trade it to.
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
- Messages
- 656
That's a good point: The gold will still be there in 6 turns, too.
I'm considering leaving Ragnar. He seems really good at pulling in gold, so it might be better to steal his gold than to have the city. When I stole the 500, he had another 300 about 8 turns later. That's a nice return.
I'm considering leaving Ragnar. He seems really good at pulling in gold, so it might be better to steal his gold than to have the city. When I stole the 500, he had another 300 about 8 turns later. That's a nice return.
Um the Muse
King
Man, sounds like a long string of bad luck. Nothing too bad, but still. Got to be a little irritating.
AFAIK, you can't actually make a 3 tile bridge like what you're suggesting. The forts and the city all have to be next to (salt?) water to count. I'm not sure about lakes.
They also all have to be within your territory. No building shortcuts across narrow peninsulas or around poles without a city, unfortunately.
Also, I didn't notice an Academy in your Commerce City. Surely, without any trading partners immediately, it would be better to use your GS on that? OTOH, you're going to build Oxford somewhere else, so maybe that city should get the Academy. Of course, OU is not nearly as good without Bureaucracy. You might want to just skip it.
Remember, if you wouldn't build a university somewhere if it weren't for OU, then you should add it to the cost of building the OU. Since you only have one commerce city, you probably only have two cities (the commerce city and your science specialist city) that could use them. When you add the cost of six more universities to the cost of OU, does it look like a good investment?
AFAIK, you can't actually make a 3 tile bridge like what you're suggesting. The forts and the city all have to be next to (salt?) water to count. I'm not sure about lakes.
They also all have to be within your territory. No building shortcuts across narrow peninsulas or around poles without a city, unfortunately.
Also, I didn't notice an Academy in your Commerce City. Surely, without any trading partners immediately, it would be better to use your GS on that? OTOH, you're going to build Oxford somewhere else, so maybe that city should get the Academy. Of course, OU is not nearly as good without Bureaucracy. You might want to just skip it.
Remember, if you wouldn't build a university somewhere if it weren't for OU, then you should add it to the cost of building the OU. Since you only have one commerce city, you probably only have two cities (the commerce city and your science specialist city) that could use them. When you add the cost of six more universities to the cost of OU, does it look like a good investment?
NapoleonThePig
Chieftain
I'm pretty sure I've had a three-fort long canal between a saltwater lake and the ocean--I believe it was the NC Isabella game. I know I was able to get ships in and out of the lake.
WelshGandalf
King
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2010
- Messages
- 743
I think Um is right. You can theoretically have a really long canal so long as all the squares touch sea or lake. Worth noting that a frozen sea tile is fine too.
OneLeggedRhino
King
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- 656
Meeting the (Backward) Neighbors (Turns 439-454, Years 695-770 AD)
Hi everyone, sorry for the delay. Between moving and throwing imageshack a few bucks, I kept putting this writeup off.
This turnset, we meet the neighbors. I start by whipping 2 carvels, one on each end of the continent, and sending them exploring.
735: Steal Theology from Ragnar, to speed up Paper.
Paper finishes in 750. I'm aiming for Liberalism, so I bulb Education. Though, as Um points out, I don't have an Academy yet, so maybe I should build one? Didn't even do the math. (I played this turnset before his post, then took forever writing it up.)
Also in 750, I meet Shaka, Mehmed and Justinian. M and S are both J's vassals. Why did I put this strong AI in the game again?
They all love each other, by the way. Shaka is a peace vassal, Mehmed got declared on once. Justinian is dominating his continent.
How about the techs?
Oh. Not worried anymore. Not even sure there's much point in playing, but I'll continue at least until I see stats, in case someone is teching faster and might catch up.
Also 750, I finally steal Philosophy from Gilgamesh, immediately swap to Caste / Pacifism, and disband a bit more army.
And I buy a map from Justinian for 130:
The final AI, in the middle of the continent on the west side, is Charlemagne. He's as backward as everyone else.
760: Between two wonders, I bring in over 1300 failgold. Time for 100% research.
Also, I finally have stats on Justinian and Charlemagne. How am I doing?
I'm going to call this game. Justinian is the most advanced AI, and he's behind 8 techs: Code of Laws, Music, Civil Service, Philosophy, Paper, Compass, Optics, and Education next turn. He's up Feudalism and Engineering (which he got this turnset). He has about half my tech rate. And I have more cities than him and his vassals combined. No contest.
If you're saying "He's also up Monarchy":
So, that's a wrap. No one can stop me, it's just a matter of teching to Astronomy and cavalry and rolling through Justinian. Which takes a lot of turns but has basically zero challenge.
Here's the save, if you want to check out stats or play out the game. I'll post some final thoughts soon.
Hi everyone, sorry for the delay. Between moving and throwing imageshack a few bucks, I kept putting this writeup off.
This turnset, we meet the neighbors. I start by whipping 2 carvels, one on each end of the continent, and sending them exploring.
735: Steal Theology from Ragnar, to speed up Paper.
Spoiler :
Paper finishes in 750. I'm aiming for Liberalism, so I bulb Education. Though, as Um points out, I don't have an Academy yet, so maybe I should build one? Didn't even do the math. (I played this turnset before his post, then took forever writing it up.)
Also in 750, I meet Shaka, Mehmed and Justinian. M and S are both J's vassals. Why did I put this strong AI in the game again?
Spoiler :
They all love each other, by the way. Shaka is a peace vassal, Mehmed got declared on once. Justinian is dominating his continent.
How about the techs?
Spoiler :
Oh. Not worried anymore. Not even sure there's much point in playing, but I'll continue at least until I see stats, in case someone is teching faster and might catch up.
Also 750, I finally steal Philosophy from Gilgamesh, immediately swap to Caste / Pacifism, and disband a bit more army.
Spoiler :
And I buy a map from Justinian for 130:
Spoiler :
The final AI, in the middle of the continent on the west side, is Charlemagne. He's as backward as everyone else.
760: Between two wonders, I bring in over 1300 failgold. Time for 100% research.
Spoiler :
Also, I finally have stats on Justinian and Charlemagne. How am I doing?
Spoiler :
I'm going to call this game. Justinian is the most advanced AI, and he's behind 8 techs: Code of Laws, Music, Civil Service, Philosophy, Paper, Compass, Optics, and Education next turn. He's up Feudalism and Engineering (which he got this turnset). He has about half my tech rate. And I have more cities than him and his vassals combined. No contest.
If you're saying "He's also up Monarchy":
Spoiler :
So, that's a wrap. No one can stop me, it's just a matter of teching to Astronomy and cavalry and rolling through Justinian. Which takes a lot of turns but has basically zero challenge.
Here's the save, if you want to check out stats or play out the game. I'll post some final thoughts soon.
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
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- 656
Closing Thoughts
Wow, that was so much easier than last game. I'm ready for Deity again. Just a couple notes this time.
Creative
Blocking that huge backfill with 3 cities was awesome. I really like Creative now, and will probably play Hatty again next game.
Also, the unique monuments are nice. Great Prophets are usually so hard to get, but Egypt can get them pretty easily. Not a critical building, but far from a useless UB like Rome's +25% GPP market.
Military Beeline
I really like cseanny's shadow game, where he got elephants super early. (Last post on page 1.) I normally only think about axe rushes, not catapults and elephants. But next game, I'll definitely keep an eye out for that.
Next
I'm thinking of doing a Monarch / Normal game next, for all the newer players to shadow. Anyone interested?
As always, thanks for reading.
-Rhino
Wow, that was so much easier than last game. I'm ready for Deity again. Just a couple notes this time.
Creative
Blocking that huge backfill with 3 cities was awesome. I really like Creative now, and will probably play Hatty again next game.
Also, the unique monuments are nice. Great Prophets are usually so hard to get, but Egypt can get them pretty easily. Not a critical building, but far from a useless UB like Rome's +25% GPP market.
Military Beeline
I really like cseanny's shadow game, where he got elephants super early. (Last post on page 1.) I normally only think about axe rushes, not catapults and elephants. But next game, I'll definitely keep an eye out for that.
Next
I'm thinking of doing a Monarch / Normal game next, for all the newer players to shadow. Anyone interested?
As always, thanks for reading.
-Rhino
vranasm
Deity
emperor would be better imo... or Immortal normal
. Don't believe that the jump from mara to normal is 3 diffs deep.Although AIs are still lagging on Emperor I vote Emperor, lol. Imo Monarch AIs are just too slow/weak and maintenance is almost free. At least you get some minimal trade potentials on Emperor and the game is slow and steady enough that new players can tag along and learn a bunch.
Edit:
Glad someone liked it
.
Edit:
Glad someone liked it
. Spoiler :
The Oz-Man
Enter: The VAIKE!
I'd probably shadow either of a Monarch or Emperor game. Great job here, though--it'd never have occurred to me to leave an AI crippled and on the same continent. I always see that motherland anger and think straight ahead toward the easiest way to alleviate it, but this path makes a lot more sense.
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