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Orcs and Humans

@EQ: Good update. Seeing that Magni and Gelbin lost a level from becoming wounded, and since you earlier stated that magic is more or less better than modern medicine, would it be possible to start a small/great project to heal a hero and regain that lost level?


IC:

To: King Thudde Dunwald of Clan Dunwald
From: King Magni Bronzebeard of Clan Bronzebeard


Well, fer one thing, those gnomish folk are some of the most clever folk out there. Aye, if you could hae seen them with their guns, ya'd hae been surprised. They fight with us, and they ask'd for a monthly trade. We hae no reason to reject it, though, we'd consider buyin' one or two load from ya. At the moment, though, we nae need the lumber. We may need it at a later point, at which point, we'll buy it off ya. In the meantime, ya ken use that lumber to bolster yer army.
 
A well-established element in WC lore is that Alliance armies are larger but are composed of physically weaker races.

Well, this is just an observation, but as Warchief I did sort of expect to take less casualties what with having a larger number of soldiers who are 2-3 times stronger and as or almost as intelligent as humans. Even in our clearest victory on the river where we had massive numerical superiority as well as the above great qualitative superiority in regular troops, favorable terrain and tactical superiority of having them surrounded, and all our heroes sans Garona present (some of whom were reasonably high-level) against one mid-level and one low-level Alliance hero, our losses were just slightly behind except in mana: 14 225 Gold, 1 100 Lumber, 250 Mana, versus 16 575 Gold, 900 Lumber, 670 Mana (this isn't counting the +3/-3 army levels that occured, though it's been typical for victories/defeats to come with momentum/loss in character levels anyway).

PS. Anyho, I'm happy with the game either way. It's fun and imaginative and free work done for us, and I find the strategy and tactical reads to be good though I see some of your points and my above observation (critically I don't remember Warcraft 2 orc grunts being any better than human soldiers, though slightly different (actually, these stats show their stats as exactly the same, so I guess we're not going by them, but maybe it's bleeding over: http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II_units) and while he seems to have left out the mounds you mention he gave your retreat a free mist), and in my case maybe Bestshot is just that much better (very possible!) and there was definitely vital stuff I was not getting (I've only played a bit of Warcraft), though I've been told the Horde has done a bit better than canon despite more enemies :D ('cept for the major issue of losing Medivh I guess, that was my bad, panicking after the first two sieges). ;)

Maybe you'll consider a human nation? I recommend Kul Tiras and piracy (JK ^^, more like raiding the horde).

PPS. Oh, right, I see the Lightning's Blade clan now, there's just less contrast.
 
@Shadowbound: If I thought for a second that you'd actually send orders for my NES, I'd offer you the position of warchief in a heartbeat. As it is, not so much, been burned one too many times by you in the past. Therefore, I'd suggest another faction, perhaps the Frostwolves, if you are sure you want to be orcish.

That Texas thing was completely ridiculous and you know it.
 
@Shadowbound: Which "Texas thing" I could list a number of disappointments you have provided me dating back to TWTUD. The only NES I can recall you consistently giving me orders since Japan was in that invasion game, In the Valley of Shadow, which had a horrendously broken ruleset. While you are still one of the best NESers I know, I don't believe I can trust a key faction to the entire plot like the Blackrock Clan to you. The Blackrock Clan needs to be consistently active and involved, which you have not been in any NES since Japan. As much as I want to believe that you would play well, there's only so many times a player can join my NES as an important nation, do diplomacy, and then never send in orders.

@Gen Mannerheim: Well, problem with the WoW Lore is that it has been changed so many times. Strictly speaking, with the current iteration, there is no actual strength difference between humans, trolls, or even gnomes when it comes to warriors. In warcraft 3, orcish grunts were distinctly more powerful than human footmen, while trolls had no melee at all besides berserkers. Also the strengths/weaknesses of various races, while I agree with you somewhat is exaggerated. For example, in Warcraft 1, humans=orcs in almost every degree. The only difference really was that orcs did more damage with their spellcasters while humans were able to heal. There were other strategies, but when you got down to it, with the sole exception of spells, both sides were inherently equal. In Warcraft 2, the differences became a bit more distinct, but were still focused primarily around humans can heal, orcs do more damage. Here come in the trolls. The trolls were key to a new orc possibility, as troll berserkers were the only Horde units which could heal themselves (excepting Death Knights through a spell). Overall though, they followed the same pattern, doing more damage than the human units. The troll case they were lightly armored, and REALLY vulernable to human melee units. They could tear apart air units and elven archers, but if a footman or knight got close they'd be toast. Warcraft 3 decimated every single previous formula, and gave us 4 different strategies, which I'm not going to detail here, but some of the same elements remained, especialyl for the humans, i.e., healing over damage.

Now, I'll put it right out in the open: most of the battles themselves are done with a modded version of Warcraft 3, and that's the reason the updates actually take so long (especially this time, sicne i had to scour the interweb to look for soemthing to use as the gnomish autogun). Typically what i do, is create a small but appropriate map, the appropriate factions, and then put them up against each other in battle, with me running observer mode. I said at the beginning, this is an NES I've been wanting to do for a very, very long time, and this mod has existed solely upon my computer and various backup drives for about 4 years now. In the case of trolls, I input a new race, basically making troll warriors a weaker version fo Berserkers. Based on lore, in fact, trolls DO NOT rely on strength, with the exception of shock tactics used by the berserkers. They are in fact outmatched by the humans in terms of strength, and far less armored. Trolls, as stated numerous times in various incarnations of the Lore, are always more dependant upon tactics and guerilla war than humans. So, an open, like that which you instructed (regardless of the fortifications, which were incomplete at the time), battle was fought, and despite what efforts were used, the humans had the advantage. Yes, your axe-throwers in fact did most of hte damage, as did the shamans, but when the humans closed ranks, especially with knights, things began falling apart.

On a side note, once I do figure out the glitches in the mod, I'll post it up here, and probably use screenshots from it to make the updates more pretty.
 
To: The Civilized Nations
From: Anduin Lothar, Regent of Stormwind


Friends, allies, I come to you begging for assistance. The vile and barbaric Horde are now at the doorstep of the city of Stormwind itself. Some of you have given much, and nearly all, to our Cause. Others, it seems, have merely been content to sit on the side and watch. Are we not all citizens of the same world? Should Stormwind fall, all of the south will belong to the ravaging Horde and the bloodthirsty Trolls.

We ask our allies who have sent us aid, please, send more. We ask the others, the Elves, Lordaeron, we know you have had troubles of your own, but by all accounts, these troubles are nearly finished, if not over with completely. The Dwarves, you've seen the destruction of the Horde first hand, and if you do not believe us, ask the two young mages who have now taken up residence with you. Please, send us warriors, send us arcanists, send us any and all aid you can. Stormwind is the shield that is protecting you from the spear of the Horde. If we fall, the Horde can only grow stronger and stronger as they plot to overrun and slaughter the North just as they're doing in the South.
 
@EQ: Thanks, this does explain a lot. I’m no longer ing now, but I think this has expanded into a discussion that would be beneficial to the nes.

Based on my understanding, with the games and most of the books in mind (there’s only a few that I haven’t gotten to). If other people have an opinion, please put your two cents in.

Humans: Probably one of the most straight forward militaries, but the lore is still contradictory in some ways. Humans (Azeroth, Lordaeron, and Stromgarde in particular) have the largest/strongest “paleskin” armies, however the Horde outnumbers them, especially so in the First War and early Second. In the first two games, orc and human warriors/footmen are equal, but I’ve always took this as a gameplay mechanic and not lore savvy. WCIII was the first time they tried to integrate a difference in their units. The books are kind of consistent in portraying humans as either a tad or a lot weaker than orcs, with their armor and discipline making them able to fight the larger and more powerful orcs one on one. In the battles, it was the army’s tactics and discipline that they used to try and out fight the weight of the Horde. Mages, as you said, were big on the healing, but that role has largely been taken over by priest.

Orcs: Orc battle strategy is to use their sheer numbers to try and overwhelm Human defenses, and to flood holes in shieldwalls to break up the Human units and smother them. When the human defenses are too strong, they try and skirt around it, for instance after the initial invasion or Lordaeron the Horde couldn’t break the Human army at the beach, so they turned east to the Hinterlands and further east still to Quel’Thalas until they were finally able to slip the Alliance in Alterac and go for the Capitol City. When they don’t have the numerical superiority, or are unable to out maneuver the Humans, they start to lose. Azeroth was able to hold the Orcs off at the beginning of the First War with relative ease due to the small number of clans coming through the Portal at that time, and at the end of the Second when the Horde had finally spread themselves too thin with troops Khaz Modan, the Hinterlands, Quel’Thalas, Alterac, and Lordaeron as well as Gul’dan’s rebellion, allowing the Alliance to beat each section in detail.

Elves: Elves have smaller, yet more disciplined army than the Human and use the same tactics; however in the books the main army stays home until later in the Second War. The Rangers is their main offensive arm, being able to hold the Trolls at bay plus being the best scouts/light infantry in the world. Archery is the rangers’ main method of warfare (see WCII) as is their ability to fall back when they are outmatched. Rangers are weak when enemies can close in on them and break their line of retreat.

Trolls: Lore is holistically contradictory on how strong these guys are. In the games, as stated, they are crappy melee units on the most part. The books, on the other hand, often compare Trolls to Ogres. Doomhammer states in Tides of Darkness that they are strong as Ogres but smart as Orcs and in the Last Gardian Prince Lane, Lothar, and Mediev are ambushed by a lone Troll who completely pones Lane and Lothar strength wise. Trolls do rely on ambush as their main point of attack, using the trees as staging areas and tactics very similar to Elven Rangers. Berserkers are similar to Orcs in that their main job is to break enemy lines, allowing their brethren to swarm holes and destroy unity.

Dwarves: Kings of the defense. Even in the War of Three Hammers, the main fighting was sieges and counter sieges. Skilled at using gunpowder weapons and mountain defenses to make the most of their small numbers. In the Second War, they were able to hold Ironforge even after losing everything else. Heavily armed Dwarven warriors are used to break siege lines, and hold walls. Dark Iron dwarves, on the other hand, use ambushes and magic to make up for their even smaller numbers. Wildhammer Dwarves use their griffin riders and their stromhammers to defeat larger armies unused to fighting aerial units.

Gnomes: Greatest technologic developers in the world. They use their technologies to “shock and awe” their foes, but are so small that they have to heavily rely on their Bronzebeard allies for protection.

Goblins: To be honest, not too sure but I believe similar to Gnomes.
 
Here's the goblins description:

Goblins: Technologically awesome, although gnomes would dispute that, and will do anything to get their little grubby hands on your gold.
 
All right, as I posted on the Capto Iugulum thread, I'm currently involved in a job hunt that's taking me across Florida. Therefore I have been unable to respond and will be unable to respond to any questions before Thursday or Friday. Not sure when the update will be, but we'll work it out upon my return. Mannerheim, I have a few comments, and will respond when I can, but elves, orcs, and humans seem about right, though I do have various disagreements/statments on gnomes, trolls, goblins, and dwarves.
 
All right, as I posted on the Capto Iugulum thread, I'm currently involved in a job hunt that's taking me across Florida. Therefore I have been unable to respond and will be unable to respond to any questions before Thursday or Friday. Not sure when the update will be, but we'll work it out upon my return. Mannerheim, I have a few comments, and will respond when I can, but elves, orcs, and humans seem about right, though I do have various disagreements/statments on gnomes, trolls, goblins, and dwarves.

Good luck, EQ! Hope you get a good job in your great quest!
 
OOC : Not sure if I would be allowed to do this .... more like a desperate attempt to keep the elves involved


The environment was electric, the dusk was red with the flares of the setting sun. The courtroom, electric with the suppressed rage and anger of centuries.Thalressar Sunstrider, the son of Anasterian, the heir to the throne of all of Quelthalas, was waiting to meet his father, the king. The young one was of the opinion that now that the Orcs were once again in the warpath, it was now time to deal with the humans once and for all, and for the same, he had quite a good number of followers.

"Father, it was time to deal with the humans once and for all. Our runestones will ensure that the humans do not dare to enter these holy grounds. The human coalition is in a choas, it is time that we teach them a lesson for ignoring
us for so long. Even your words were treated with contempt. I want to propose a motion that we declare war on the humans and we do it right now."

Hardly had the young prince finished his statement, when a thunderous voice boomed from the far end of the court, "Never.
We would never raise arms against the ones that we have fought alongside once. The quel'dorei are not the ones who would resort to cheap tricks like these. If at all we should declare, it would be against the green skins, the barbarous orcs never learn, they even have nether portals opened. If at all the orcs reach the walls of the humans and the rangers are called forth, I , the king of the Elves, will march with the rangers myself."

"And what until then? Sit inside the forests and wait for us to be called ? and present ourselves as meager servants of the humans ?"

"Enough, young one, you don't know what you speak of. This discussion is over. All those who supports the young prince, leave the kingdom before the dawn break comes. "

"Is that the final words of the king ? We elves, act like meager servants of those below us ?" The king stopped in his stride, shaking his head, gave a wry smile and went off into the ante chambers.

As surely, the dawn breaks and the kingdom rose up to the daily chores, there was an announcement made from the palace. The young prince, Thalressar Sunstrider, heir to the throne of Quelthelas, had gone 'rogue'. Over some disagreement with his father, he has left the kingdom, along with some of his followers. No reason official story was provided over the cause of disagreement, but the groves were abuzz with much speculation.

The court declared to the king that 25 rangers and 5 mages had joined the young prince. The prince had also taken with him 6 corvettes of the Imperial Navy. The king announced that messengers to be sent to all the known human kingdoms, requesting the deportation of the young prince, alive, once captured.


Rogue Faction:
Thalressar Sunstrider (Level 1 Swordsman)
no inventory
25 Rangers
5 Mages
6 Corvettes
 
OOC: Yah! (Can't see why EQ would object to this, but if he does he'll probably just nix it and no harm done.)
Thalressar, a dude bad enough to fight da powah!
 
From: Kingdom of Lordaeron
To: Quel'thalas

Naturally we will assist you however possible in putting down this insurrection. Never think that Lordaeron is not continued in its interest in the ancient alliance with Quel'thalas, and now that we have satisfactorily driven the trolls from our own lands, we will be glad to assist you in quashing this insurrection and if at all possible annihilating the trolls of Amani altogether.
 
I have returned, and bonefang, like I said before, if you follow the rules for hero creation, then I have no problem with a rogue faction, but you have to actually create that hero with 500 gold before I can or will do that.

As for everyone else, I have a few errands to run today and about 70 PMs to go through, and after all that's done, I'll be doing a quick update for this NES.
 
Beginning the update process now.
 
Just realized I forgot to respond to this. My sincere apologies, and I have actually given some thoughts to this over the various drives I have made across the state over the past week, so I'll just take it section by section with how I've adjusted for the various races with the current mod I use to decide battles. Upon further review, the mod may not last, simply because I've been discovering that the AI has no clear idea how to actually use things like the autogun and zeppelins which can actually do battle. It makes me sad, but that is the hard truth, though it still works for battles without those things.

Humans: Well, based on the manual for Warcraft 3, it implies that the human armies deteriorated during peacetime to a limited degree, which could imply that as a justifiable reason for why human footman and orc grunts were no longer equal in combat. As for healing, in Warcraft 1, it was done by the clerics, whose name I have kept here for that reason. In Warcraft 2, the clerics were said to be disbanded and their duties taken up by paladins, and that's certainly the case in gameplay mechanics. This was retroactively changed in Warcraft 3, in which they stated in game that the paladins were created to serve alongside priests, which is more in line with what World of Warcraft itself actually presents. I personally have chosen to adopt the Warcraft 3 approach, and believe that clerics and paladins will continue to serve together, and paladins (if they are formed) will be an elite, almost heroic unit for each one, requiring a knight as a requisite for training. As for magic, if I was to stay 100% true to the various Lore presented, Stormwind would have a unique spellcaster called a Conjurer. I made the decision to remove this class, because later incarnations of the world would have their duties and abilities overlap with the warlock. The generic term "Mage" works best to cover the magics available to the casters of the world of Azeroth.

Orcs: They are known to be one for one stronger than the humans in Warcraft 3, but there is a reason why that occurred to me. Those that were capable of fighting by the time of Warcraft 3 (25ish years after the events currently in the NES) are those who both still had the spirit and ability to fight. Therefore any who had survived to the point of Warcraft 3 certainly were the prime, while the humans had a period of decadence and peace after the Hordes were defeated in the Second War.

Elves: I fully agree with your assessment of the elves.

Dwarves: No disagreement here either, as dwarven settlements are built mostly as major strongholds which can be easily sealed off from invasion. Therefore siege and defensive war are the only things known to the dwarves in the sense of warfare. That's why the Dark Irons continued to hold multiple levels of Blackrock Mountain for decades, despite the Horde having defeated them and overrun them in the field, as well as establishing the upper levels of Blackrock Mountain as their own citadel, even with the dwarves consistently harassing them from below. Similarly, Ironforge was able to hold out indefinitely, having ample stockpiles in the bowels of the city, and essentially managed to hold the entire population of Khaz Modan excepting the gnomes for a long period of time.

Gnomes: In Warcraft 2, and that time period, based on what we know in the manual, gnomes were still very nearly creatures of myth to human kingdoms. They would rarely be seen wandering around, and the gnomish-goblin rivalry is said to be ancient in origins, though lord knows why. Due to the concealed nature of their capital, Gnomeragen, they were never directly threatened by the Horde over the course of the Second War. Other than that though, you've nailed it, though their warriors are the weakest around, relying mostly on support weapons like rifles and inventions to supplement their smaller strength and ability on the battlefield. Of course, due to the inherent instability and eccenticity of the gnomes, most of their stuff is just as likely to backfire as work properly.

Goblins: Stronger than the gnomes, they still have all the basic same things about their society. The key difference though, is that Goblins gained their intelligence via a rare mineral found only on Kezan. This mineral has begun to run low, meaning that while goblins are still clever, their intelligence is in a constant state of decline, which is why half of the time their inventions fail and blow up their creators.

@EQ: Thanks, this does explain a lot. I’m no longer ing now, but I think this has expanded into a discussion that would be beneficial to the nes.

Based on my understanding, with the games and most of the books in mind (there’s only a few that I haven’t gotten to). If other people have an opinion, please put your two cents in.

Humans: Probably one of the most straight forward militaries, but the lore is still contradictory in some ways. Humans (Azeroth, Lordaeron, and Stromgarde in particular) have the largest/strongest “paleskin” armies, however the Horde outnumbers them, especially so in the First War and early Second. In the first two games, orc and human warriors/footmen are equal, but I’ve always took this as a gameplay mechanic and not lore savvy. WCIII was the first time they tried to integrate a difference in their units. The books are kind of consistent in portraying humans as either a tad or a lot weaker than orcs, with their armor and discipline making them able to fight the larger and more powerful orcs one on one. In the battles, it was the army’s tactics and discipline that they used to try and out fight the weight of the Horde. Mages, as you said, were big on the healing, but that role has largely been taken over by priest.

Orcs: Orc battle strategy is to use their sheer numbers to try and overwhelm Human defenses, and to flood holes in shieldwalls to break up the Human units and smother them. When the human defenses are too strong, they try and skirt around it, for instance after the initial invasion or Lordaeron the Horde couldn’t break the Human army at the beach, so they turned east to the Hinterlands and further east still to Quel’Thalas until they were finally able to slip the Alliance in Alterac and go for the Capitol City. When they don’t have the numerical superiority, or are unable to out maneuver the Humans, they start to lose. Azeroth was able to hold the Orcs off at the beginning of the First War with relative ease due to the small number of clans coming through the Portal at that time, and at the end of the Second when the Horde had finally spread themselves too thin with troops Khaz Modan, the Hinterlands, Quel’Thalas, Alterac, and Lordaeron as well as Gul’dan’s rebellion, allowing the Alliance to beat each section in detail.

Elves: Elves have smaller, yet more disciplined army than the Human and use the same tactics; however in the books the main army stays home until later in the Second War. The Rangers is their main offensive arm, being able to hold the Trolls at bay plus being the best scouts/light infantry in the world. Archery is the rangers’ main method of warfare (see WCII) as is their ability to fall back when they are outmatched. Rangers are weak when enemies can close in on them and break their line of retreat.

Trolls: Lore is holistically contradictory on how strong these guys are. In the games, as stated, they are crappy melee units on the most part. The books, on the other hand, often compare Trolls to Ogres. Doomhammer states in Tides of Darkness that they are strong as Ogres but smart as Orcs and in the Last Gardian Prince Lane, Lothar, and Mediev are ambushed by a lone Troll who completely pones Lane and Lothar strength wise. Trolls do rely on ambush as their main point of attack, using the trees as staging areas and tactics very similar to Elven Rangers. Berserkers are similar to Orcs in that their main job is to break enemy lines, allowing their brethren to swarm holes and destroy unity.

Dwarves: Kings of the defense. Even in the War of Three Hammers, the main fighting was sieges and counter sieges. Skilled at using gunpowder weapons and mountain defenses to make the most of their small numbers. In the Second War, they were able to hold Ironforge even after losing everything else. Heavily armed Dwarven warriors are used to break siege lines, and hold walls. Dark Iron dwarves, on the other hand, use ambushes and magic to make up for their even smaller numbers. Wildhammer Dwarves use their griffin riders and their stromhammers to defeat larger armies unused to fighting aerial units.

Gnomes: Greatest technologic developers in the world. They use their technologies to “shock and awe” their foes, but are so small that they have to heavily rely on their Bronzebeard allies for protection.

Goblins: To be honest, not too sure but I believe similar to Gnomes.
 
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