Out of control gun control

[kochman]

NYC has tougher gun control than Norway, so it would likely be a more successful operation thanks to the gun control laws.

Ah, true, very true...
But in this case, we are talking about law enforcement's ability to have guns... not the criminals.

I would argue that criminals don't care, they get guns either way... that's part of what makes them criminals. In fact, I'm sure you would agree that the criminals in NYC, despite the illegality of guns (for the most part, it's a HUGE hassle to own a gun in NYC, by design), have more guns and more violence than all of Norway.

 

[JollyRoger]

In fact, I'm sure you would agree that the criminals in NYC, despite the illegality of guns (for the most part, it's a HUGE hassle to own a gun in NYC, by design), have more guns and more violence than all of Norway.

Thus why NYC cops are armed and Norwegian cops are not so armed.

 

[Arwon]

Different places have different methods of policing. This isn't a gun control issue.

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm told that, in the UK, one of the reasons that the government doesn't let ordinary cops have guns is because our police are so routinely incompetent that they're afraid they'll just end up killing people all the time. (In fact, they won't even let the London Met anywhere near them with guns- all the police around Downing Street and parliament are from the City of London Police, a separate force who usually operate in a different part of the city.) So there's that.

 

[Singularity]

I guess human nature is one of reacting to events rather than planning for them in advance.

Initially I was quite mad at the time it took the police to get there, but in retrospect we've not had anything like this happen in modern time. The question I guess will be whether we have the mobility we would like. We're a large and sparsely populated area, and if a hydro dam, cruise ship, oil platform, ski resort or other remote areas where to be targeted we would probably need a sustained regional helicopter force tied into our special operation police. Still, the costs can't be that large, and the effects of such a policy would not increase the level of unease among the general populace since they would be practically invisible until called to respond.

I predict the politicians will jump through a lot of hoops to instill a sense of security, and that we will have such an airborne capacity to our anti-terror police in the near future. Whether we should've had that before is another matter. I guess we would have to look to other nations with similar infrastructure and topography(guess Chile, Canada and New Zealand are good comparisons) if they had one and why we didn't.

Edit: oh, sorry - meant to comment on gun control. If you want armed police you want them to be in competent hands. We have that right now in Norway. Special force police have snipers, assault weapons and whatever else the heart could desire to control a situation and the competence to wield them. I would say we should keep it that way and not arm your average traffic cop or patrol cop or off duty cop with a concealed weapon(maybe if he was in said special force - something the off duty officer at Utøya wasn't).

 

[Arwon]

There's also the likelihood that all the first-response units were at the bombing.

TF: Yes, there is that.

Criticisms centred around the fact that Victoria Police members were fatally shooting members of the public (both innocent and guilty) at a rate exceeding that of all other Australian police forces combined

 

[Formaldehyde]

From what I understand, Community Service Officer is just a security guard - they patrol around acting as a deterrent. If something does happen, they call the real police.

Actually, no. They are nothing of the sort. They handle virtually all police issues that don't require citing, arresting and shooting at people so the cops are freed up to concentrate on those activities. I think you are mistaking them for neighborhood watch groups.

But they could certainly do all but shoot at people given the proper training, just like British bobbies or Norwegian cops do. But that requires a lot more training.

And the officer is usually in a low crime area or a certain development - not crime ridden areas of a city. So to say that Arming the office is the cause of the violence by the people is insane.

Actually, no. They go wherever their duties require them to go, including high crime areas.

Cops having guns obviously make them much more of a target than they would normally be. Cops in countries where they don't carry firearms are shot at even less. But even if they do carry firearms it rarely happens. An acquaintance of mine is a cop who is now near retirement age. He has never been shot at. I think you will find that most cops haven't been. Most of them have never even had to shoot at anybody themselves.

 

[Akka]

I guess it is possible, but they weren't wearing camouflage or even fatigues. They seemed to be dressed in the standard blue uniforms I only saw being worn by gendarmes. And this was prior to 9/11. It was in the late 90s.

Normally military patrols are in camouflage, so well, that's surprising.

But Vigie-Pirate predates the 9-11 by a long time - it's been created in 1978. USA tends to forget that religious extremism didn't start with the first time THEY experienced it, and France, due to its colonial past and less-than-glorious Algeria War, had already endured terrorism long before

 

[emzie]

Well, AFAIK the main reason behind the delay was that the police didn't have anyone that would be able to fly a chopper at that very moment. Yes, this was a grave mistake on their part but it have nothing to do with both Norwegian gun control and whether norway police is armed or not.

See? While the issue isn't gun control, persay, it is still government control. If Norway didn't require things like a "license" or "training" or "qualification" to fly a helicopter, the police could have responded sooner.

 

[Cannae]

I think gun control won't keep firearms out of peoples hands. If a said person is really wanting a firearm then they may still end up getting and/or using one. But what gun control is good at is preventing potentialy dangerous people from using firearms in a moment of passion. Like for non premeditated crimes restricting acess to guns may mean the difference between 1 or 3 casuilties (or potentialy non-lethal injury) and dozens of people dying.

 

[kochman]

I think gun control won't keep firearms out of peoples hands. If a said person is really wanting a firearm then they may still end up getting and/or using one. But what gun control is good at is preventing potentialy dangerous people from using firearms in a moment of passion. Like for non premeditated crimes restricting acess to guns may mean the difference between 1 or 3 casuilties (or potentialy non-lethal injury) and dozens of people dying.

How man non-premeditated attacks with guns have ended up killings dozens of people?
How many people have died from knives, etc in moments of passion?
How many crimes has gun ownership prevented/stopped cold?

 

[Arakhor]

To me, the thread title means precisely the opposite of what Kochman is trying to imply. I think of Colombine and the other atrocities similar to Dunblane and Oslo, yet they seem to occur far more commonly in the United States, simply because firearms are so readily available.

 

[kochman]

To me, the thread title means precisely the opposite of what Kochman is trying to imply. I think of Colombine and the other atrocities similar to Dunblane and Oslo, yet they seem to occur far more commonly in the United States, simply because firearms are so readily available.

The point was, too much government interference regarding guns (though in this case in regards to law enforcement, not private ownership)... I don't think this is such a hard concept to grasp.

You are forgetting places like Germany that have seriously harsh gun ownership rules, but still has the occasional mass killing.

They happen more in the USA because:
1) There are way more people in the USA than any particular country in Europe
2) We have a serious problem with violence in our culture (I blame Hollywood/Music Industry/etc much more than the ability to buy guns after background checks, etc), where is is glorified and then the news media always blows everything out of proportion, thus garnering such violence yet more attention for the wackos out there watching and wondering how they can get their 15 minutes of fame as well...

 

[Ajidica]

1) There are way more people in the USA than any particular country in Europe

Per-capita, we have more gun related crime no matter how you slice it.

2) We have a serious problem with violence in our culture (I blame Hollywood/Music Industry/etc much more than the ability to buy guns after background checks, etc),

Violence in music is no new thing. When I listen to Prokofievs Alexander Nevsky and arrive at the part where the Crusaders are in Pskov and throwing living people into pyres, does that mean I am listening to violent music and that I will go out on a murdering spree and throw people into fires? I've watched Triumph of the Will, does that mean I will go and support a genocidal dictator? Of course not. Most people can tell the difference between reality and fantasy. Those who can't already would be taking violent and dangerous actions. That they are drawn to violent games and music is a symptom, not a cause.

 

[kochman]

Violence in music is no new thing. When I listen to Prokofievs Alexander Nevsky and arrive at the part where the Crusaders are in Pskov and throwing living people into pyres, does that mean I am listening to violent music and that I will go out on a murdering spree and throw people into fires? I've watched Triumph of the Will, does that mean I will go and support a genocidal dictator? Of course not. Most people can tell the difference between reality and fantasy. Those who can't already would be taking violent and dangerous actions. That they are drawn to violent games and music is a symptom, not a cause.

Are you really comparing Prokofiev to gangster rap/thug culture?
I have heard of very few cases of classical music, and the violence of war that it often reflects, being the cause of violence...
Compare that to the lyrics of gangster rap, which glorifies killing police, etc... and has been cited as a cause.
It is hard to deny that there is a thug subculture, which is quite clearly linkable to this genre of music, in the USA.

 

[Ajidica]

Are you really comparing Prokofiev to gangster rap/thug culture?

No, I'm simply pointing out the inanity in claiming 'violent music makes people violent'.

I have heard of very few cases of classical music, and the violence of war that it often reflects, being the cause of violence...

Just because it hasn't happened in the time period of excessive media focus on violent music doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It is hard to deny that there is a thug subculture, which is quite clearly linkable to this genre of music, in the USA.

There certiantly is a thug subculture, but that doesn't mean they woke up oneday and said "Hey, this music includes lyrics about killing police officers. Let me go kill one!". There may be a few like that, but the relative scarcity of people who actualy do that leads me to believe it is more a mental condition then anything else.

 

[kochman]

There certiantly is a thug subculture, but that doesn't mean they woke up oneday and said "Hey, this music includes lyrics about killing police officers. Let me go kill one!". There may be a few like that, but the relative scarcity of people who actualy do that leads me to believe it is more a mental condition then anything else.

Well, it certainly isn't as simplistic as the example you gave! These things are deeply ingrained in the subculture that is prevalent in the ghettos of America... it is sad, but a reality.

 

[emzie]

Are you really comparing Prokofiev to gangster rap/thug culture?
I have heard of very few cases of classical music, and the violence of war that it often reflects, being the cause of violence...
Compare that to the lyrics of gangster rap, which glorifies killing police, etc... and has been cited as a cause.
It is hard to deny that there is a thug subculture, which is quite clearly linkable to this genre of music, in the USA.

Link to video.

If you don't want to invade Poland by 40 seconds in, something is wrong with you.

 

[Ajidica]

Link to video.

If you don't want to invade Poland by 40 seconds in, something is wrong with you.

Well, everybody wants to invade Poland, music or no music!

 

[kochman]

Ummm... Yeah, that was Hitler's inspiration... it was all Wagner's fault!
Brilliant guys.
I was secretly waiting for someone to compare a WORLD WAR to ghetto crime... so I could laugh.