Outside Agitators!! Think YOu Can Ruin Our Happy Valley!

[GoodGame]

Should be State Pen.

There is a state pen down the road.....Rockview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Correctional_Institution_–_Rockview

Yes, you too will be able to say you remember when Penn State actually even had a football program.

I wonder what the value of news clippings that claim JoePa hit win 400, will be worth in the future?

How does this affect the other sports teams in the school? Will the track or ping pong team be affected?

Beer Pong probably won't be affected.

PSU has a very winning women's volley ball team in recent years.
I suspect other sports will get a boost, perhaps the basketball teams.
Ice Hockey is on the rise too (new arena).

Football is a diehard legacy at PSU, well beyond JoePa, so I suspect exhibition games will be bread and butter for alumni fans. College football is still big in the state, so I wonder if Pitt will grab fans from PSU.


****
Personally I think the NCAA decision is better than a death penalty, since in effect they are still in the NCAA, so they can still hope for the next decade; they could have been barred from doing anything other than sports clubs. I question wording the decision that the players have their past games called into question; I can understand deciding against JoePa's records, and punishing the school, but not the players who aren't themselves of accused of anything. I think the decision is appropriate since it can allow rebuilding of the school's integrity and show that it is worthy of continued support from the state; it effectively says that collegiate activities << law.


Reading the thread I kind of agree with some of John's statements. Although it's true the institution benefited, the leadership crimes (in effect, conspiracy?) were perpetrated by specific individuals in positions of power and capacity to shield the students' knowledge (and other employees of the school). Additionally, the institution is among other schools, a land-grant university so it is a public entity with quasi-government affiliations (I'm uncertain if PSU lands are technically Federal lands, but that's the gist of the Morril act that that made those school) so in effect it's a public school with the typical semi-socialist subsidized costs. E.g. in addition to individual federal aid (FAFSA), the school itself receives budget supplementation from government to operate at affordable cost to students. In Pennsylvania there's effectively three such schools (also Temple U and Pitt U) which geographically makes a central, east, west school 'district'. In effect the school is a necessity of that state's education system. There are other state schools which are generally 'Teachers college" in which the main curricula is to teach school.

So I'd say any punishment should not spill over to students beyond actual individual acts (e.g. rioting), as it would be punishing education itself. Punishment of the institution should be to cause leadership change, not a case of punishing students and graduates for having chosen education at PSU rather than Pitt or Temple or teachers college or private school. To do that is like blaming the central region of the state, or people who grew up preferring one sports team over another.

Of course the institution should be liable for any real damages (the rapes, therapy, etc...), as that is the only fair way to punish and it is only fair since the school was operating as a discrete organization, not as a representative of any other entity.

 

[DroopyTofu]

The further south we go, the stronger the emphasis on sports - football, specifically. UT has a huge program, but that's dwarfed by UA. I was stunned the first time I went to Alabama to visit my brother at Auburn. The streets were actually paved with homages to previous football personalities. And they claimed to be an educational university.

Perhaps my experience is unique, but it seems to me that the further south one goes, the heavier the emphasis on football over academics.

UT has increasingly put higher emphasis on education and made entrance requirements higher. Football is emphasized, but not to the extent that it stops education from being important. UA is not as known for education, but Auburn is one of the top architectural schools in the country. IIRC it also has a top-level agricultural school. Then you have schools like Vanderbilt or Duke that aren't known for athletics at all (except Duke's basketball team, but still less important and less well-known than their academics). Southern schools do tend to have better football teams, but that doesn't mean that they don't care about the academics. And don't forget where Penn. State is too.

 

[downtown]

Peter:

I think VERY generally, if any university could be blamed for placing sports above academics, it would be an SEC school. Auburn, Tennessee and Ole Miss were the first three that came to mind. Not that these schools do not have strong programs (they do), but the inordinate emphasis on athletics relative to research and teaching is in my mind, askew. If this kind of scandal could have happened anywhere else, I think its more likely to occur in the southeast.

In the interest of fairness, I think you could say the same thing about my beloved alma mater, The Ohio State University, until the 1990s.

 

[JohnRM]

Couple of points: If you think this has o effect on the power of athletics at Penn State you're very wrong. Secondly, the NCAA has no real (i.e. criminal) jurisdiction over those involved in the cover-up. Its up to the courts to punish that.

Oh, it will have an effect on Penn State, but not most other universities.

This punishment wasnt about that though, it was about sending a message to schools to not cover up their dirty laundry. I think it sent that message very well indeed.

Mark Emmert would disagree with you.

Well, perhaps you should consider going to a school that doesnt have an athletics program. They do exist you know.

Its really not that important to me. Its just an opinion. Besides that, there is only one school within driving distance.


Edit: In retrospect, I thought it worth pointing out that I am adult student whose employer is paying tuition. I don't have a choice to just up and leave.

 

[JohnRM]

I honestly don't think they are. I think that for a certain group...maybe twenty or so, it does because their university brand is 100% tied to their football program, and their academics are not strong enough to stand on their own. In the era where the market for students is hyper competitive, having a strong athletics program is seen as a major means to the end of strong academics.

Penn State was somewhat unique in the promotion of their football program to DemiGod status, in that it is actually a good school.

Alright. I don't entirely agree, but I get what you're saying. If you hold that to be true, then yes, it will be effective.

 

[downtown]

PSU has a very winning women's volley ball team in recent years.
I suspect other sports will get a boost, perhaps the basketball teams.
Ice Hockey is on the rise too (new arena).

it doesnt work that way. Football is the only sport that really makes money...it pays for everything else. In 2014, when the football team is going 2-10 and the less than 65,000 people show up for a game, AND the schools are paying huge fines, there isn't going to be enough money for basketball, hockety or wrestling to properly recruit.

For 2014-2020, Penn State is a volleyball school.

 

[GoodGame]

it doesnt work that way. Football is the only sport that really makes money...it pays for everything else. In 2014, when the football team is going 2-10 and the less than 65,000 people show up for a game, AND the schools are paying huge fines, there isn't going to be enough money for basketball, hockety or wrestling to properly recruit.

For 2014-2020, Penn State is a volleyball school.

Well they actually did put in a considerable expense for an ice rink, which at the time I was at PSU, I thought was ridiculous (as in why not spend on academics not sports), but now I wonder if it wasn't crazy like a fox?

Women's volleyball is ok to watch---just sanction the sandy beach, swimsuit version.

Prohibition showed that if you outlaw something, you drive the demand elsewhere (underground, to other drugs). I would not be surprised if PSU tries to push interest in other sports for revenue purposes. Adaption is a part of survival.


Not to detract from the just punishment of course.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Peter:

I think VERY generally, if any university could be blamed for placing sports above academics, it would be an SEC school. Auburn, Tennessee and Ole Miss were the first three that came to mind. Not that these schools do not have strong programs (they do), but the inordinate emphasis on athletics relative to research and teaching is in my mind, askew. If this kind of scandal could have happened anywhere else, I think its more likely to occur in the southeast.

In the interest of fairness, I think you could say the same thing about my beloved alma mater, The Ohio State University, until the 1990s.

You really call that "in all fairness" while also failing to mention Notre Dame, which really started all this in the early 60s with their national football broadcasts on TV every week, and virtually any Big Ten college especially Penn State? Not to mention it really pertains to any other major conference for that matter.

And what do you have as any sort of proof that it all supposedly changed at OSU in the 90s?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_State_Buckeyes#National_Championships

National Championships

The Ohio State University has 69 total team national titles. Of these, 24 are NCAA championships.[12][13][14] The Buckeye athletics program also has more than 300 individual national champions.[12]

Men's
Baseball: 1966
Basketball: 1960, 1986 (NIT), 2008 (NIT)
Fencing: 1942, 2004, 2008, 2012
Football: 1942, 1954, 1957, 1961, 1968, 1970, 2002
Golf: 1945, 1979
Gymnastics: 1985, 1996, 2001
Swimming & Diving: 1943, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1949, 1950, 1952, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1962
Outdoor Track & Field: 1929
Volleyball: 2011

Women's
Synchronized swimming: 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Pistol: 2000, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2009
Coed
Cheerleading: 1993
Fencing: 2004, 2008, 2012
Pistol: 2000

Big Ten Champions

Men's
Baseball: 1917, 1924, 1943, 1951, 1955, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1999, 2001, 2009
Basketball: 1925, 1933, 1939, 1944, 1946, 1950, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1968, 1971, 1991, 2000, 2002, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2012
Cross Country: 1923
Football: 1916, 1917, 1920, 1935, 1939, 1942, 1944, 1949, 1954, 1955, 1957, 1961, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1984, 1986, 1993, 1996, 1998, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009
Golf: 1928, 1945, 1951, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1995, 1996, 1997, 2004
Hockey (CCHA): 1972, 2004
Gymnastics: 1983, 1985, 1987, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
Indoor Track: 1942, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1993
Outdoor Track: 1942, 1948, 1992, 1993
Soccer: 2000, 2007, 2009
Swimming: 1938, 1943, 1946, 1947, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 2010
Tennis: 1915, 1943, 1991, 2001, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009
Volleyball (MIVA): 1969, 1972, 1975, 1977, 1978, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1986, 1987, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 2000, 2004, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011
Wrestling:1923, 1951

Women's
Basketball: 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1993, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009
Field Hockey: 2006
Golf: 1983, 1984, 1985, 1988, 1993, 1997, 1999, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005
Gymnastics: 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987
Rowing: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2011
Soccer: 2010
Softball: 1990, 2007
Indoor Track: 2011
Outdoor Track: 2011
Swimming: 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986
Volleyball: 1989, 1991, 1994

On April 2, 2009, Ohio State signed a 10-year media-rights agreement with IMG College and RadiOhio, worth nearly $128 million, the largest such agreement in college sports.[15]

OSU continues to be the epitome of this issue. One just has to read the posts in the sports section of this forum which are related to collegiate sports, or any of your frequent defenses of college athletics in this forum, to see that.

 

[JohnRM]

This is the last post I have for this thread. It comes via a Penn State Alumni and it expresses my feelings on this matter more perfectly than I could ever do so, for myself.

"Apparently, Sports Illustrated will run a cover this week that reads 'We Were Penn State.' Sports Illustrated and so many others clearly have no understanding of who We are. As a second-generation Penn State grad, I have grown up idolizing Penn State, Joe Paterno, and the excellent institution of higher learning that Penn State was, is, and will always be. I am one of hundreds of thousands that consider the Penn State community something unique and special. This goes beyond a football field. This goes beyond school pride. The culture at Penn State, in no small part because of Joe Paterno, taught all of us how to be better people, better friends, and better members of our families and our community.

"So how do I reconcile that with the allegations that a few individuals, including Joe Paterno, remained silent about the terrible actions of Sandusky? Honest answer is I can’t. The allegations do not gel with what each of us learned from our university, and yes, from Joe Paterno. Penn State has always been a beacon of how to do things the right way. Of putting academics and building quality young men and women ahead of fame and wins. I cannot reconcile these allegations with the culture that helped mold who I am. The culture that helped teach me that success is only sweet when done right. That a loss with integrity is better than a win without it. That who we are as men and women is more important than fleeting glory. I cannot reconcile what people are saying of my school with the school I lived and experienced.

"But then, that’s how I know that Penn State is what we all know it to be. The apparent actions of a few individuals were tragically void of ethical wisdom or compass. But they are not Penn State. I am Penn State. We are Penn State. All of us. The hundreds of thousands that have become better people because of our school and the unique community it fosters. I find it sadly amusing that the NCAA handed down such unprecedented sanctions partly to, apparently, try to change the culture at Penn State. Clearly they know nothing about the culture at Penn State.

"But they are not alone. The media and social media frenzy that has arisen around this tragedy contains a shocking amount of glee and venom. For years many from rival schools and society generally despised Penn State and Joe Paterno for building our reputation on the motto Success With Honor. For being so squeaky clean and selfless that the football team did not even put individual names on its jerseys. They looked at Penn State with disdain, as self-righteous and egotistical. This tragedy is exactly what they have hoped for. With glee they can point at the tragic moral misjudgments of a few individuals as supposed proof of a fundamental character flaw of the community as a whole. With delight they can scream from the rooftops, tearing their robes, that the whole university must be punished, that they must be made an example. And with their own self-righteousness, the NCAA demonstrated their moral superiority by acting as judge, jury, and executioner in handing down sanctions so unprecedented that, some say, they will not only spell the end to the football program as we know it but to the prestige and pride of the whole school.

"These individuals seem to want us alumni to stand on the highest hills, screaming in anguish as we rip and tear our degrees into a thousand pieces, burning our Penn State belongings, and then burying ourselves in the mud in shame as we screech, weep, and wail about how we must repent for attending such an institution, how we were once Penn State, once unique and admired, but no longer.

"But we won’t. The actions of a few do not define us. The knee-jerk reactions of others will not end us. Our school taught us more than organic chemistry and music theory. It taught us to persevere. To overcome. To succeed – with honor. That is who WE are. That is what WE are.

"On September 1, Penn State will play its first game of the season against Ohio University. I wish I could be there. I wish I could hear what the world will hear. The earth-shattering cries of more than a 100,000 people, echoing from Erie to Scranton, from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, of WE ARE PENN STATE. The cheer will not be merely for football. It will be for all of us. It will be a declaration that we are more than this tragedy. That we will not go quietly into the night in despair and shame. That we will improve, overcome, persevere, and excel – with honor.

"So to those so gleeful over the tragedy and the repercussions that have befallen Penn State, to those that so happily write us off as defeated and finished, to those that want to discount and disparage our pride, tradition, and principle of Success With Honor, I have bad news.

"WE ARE, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, PENN STATE."

-- Patterson Weaver

I've never been so proud to be a part of this community, part of the Penn State legacy, and a resident of the State of Pennsylvania. I could never have rationalized my feelings about the situation, as well as Mr. Weaver. But, there was always something that I knew about myself, my fellow students, and of the faculty that I just couldn't express. Now, I don't have to. I can just say,

WE ARE, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, PENN STATE.​

Of course, that means owning our mistakes, too. That is a part of this that I didn't want to accept, but being part of a community is sharing responsibility for the bad, as well as the good. My fellow students, the alumni, and the faculty have said that they are going to own this. I choose to own this, as well. We will survive this. We will improve. If you underestimate us, that is your mistake!

 

[peter grimes]

Oh, for the love of jupiter!

All that treacle drivel is no different that anything every other college and university spews.

Penn State isn't unique, special, or noble. At least, no more so than anywhere else.

All this hand-wringing comes down to is modern-day tribalism, and your tribe got caught protecting a child-rapist. It's only a matter of time until the next child-rapist is caught, and we learn that his [it's almost always a male] superiors covered it up because they wanted to protect the institution from bad press.

 

[JollyRoger]

I am not, and never will be, Penn State.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Sitting on a cornflake
Waiting for the van to come
Corporation T-shirt, stupid bloody Tuesday
Man you've been a naughty boy
You let your face grow long

I am the eggman
They are the eggman
I am the walrus
Goo goo g' joob.

 

[MobBoss]

This is the last post I have for this thread. It comes via a Penn State Alumni and it expresses my feelings on this matter more perfectly than I could ever do so, for myself.






I've never been so proud to be a part of this community, part of the Penn State legacy, and a resident of the State of Pennsylvania. I could never have rationalized my feelings about the situation, as well as Mr. Weaver. But, there was always something that I knew about myself, my fellow students, and of the faculty that I just couldn't express. Now, I don't have to. I can just say,

WE ARE, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, PENN STATE.​

Of course, that means owning our mistakes, too. That is a part of this that I didn't want to accept, but being part of a community is sharing responsibility for the bad, as well as the good. My fellow students, the alumni, and the faculty have said that they are going to own this. I choose to own this, as well. We will survive this. We will improve. If you underestimate us, that is your mistake!

The sad part of this is if those responsible had loved Penn State a little less, and done the right thing years ago, this would not have occurred. It was this kind of attitude that led to this to begin with....the idea that the rabid 'We Are Penn State' had to be maintained as opposed to facing a child sexual abuse scandal.

I think Johns right. I dont think those people at Penn State have learned a thing. They should have gotten a 5 year death sentence on the entire program with another 5 years of restricted scholarships.

 

[JollyRoger]

You would think that Penn State was a young boy.

 

[MobBoss]

You would think that Penn State was a young boy.

Didnt the perpetrator claim 'it was merely his culture' in defense of his acts?

 

[ParkCungHee]

Well, at least the Knights can finally say we have a better sports program then someone.

 

[downtown]

Well they actually did put in a considerable expense for an ice rink, which at the time I was at PSU, I thought was ridiculous (as in why not spend on academics not sports), but now I wonder if it wasn't crazy like a fox?

Women's volleyball is ok to watch---just sanction the sandy beach, swimsuit version.

Prohibition showed that if you outlaw something, you drive the demand elsewhere (underground, to other drugs). I would not be surprised if PSU tries to push interest in other sports for revenue purposes. Adaption is a part of survival.


Not to detract from the just punishment of course.

It's not really how it works though. Only a few dozen NCAA men's basketball teams make a profit by themselves (without conference of NCAA revenue sharing), and only a small handful of non football and basketball teams do as well. That's partly to do with demand, but mostly to do with TV and ticket sales. The economics of volleyball do not really allow it to make very much money.

Hockey can, but Penn State is just starting regular NCAA-level competition (it was a club team before, no?), and while i bet they get an uptick of interest, it won't be enough to make tens of millions in profit. Remember, teh money that you could normally use to develop a program won't be available, since that comes from football profits.

You really call that "in all fairness" while also failing to mention Notre Dame, which really started all this in the early 60s with their national football broadcasts on TV every week, and virtually any Big Ten college especially Penn State? Not to mention it really pertains to any other major conference for that matter.

Hmm, Notre Dame might fit into that. I'd have to look at the numbers more.

Making a ton of money from sports doesn't mean you have your priorities out of wack. Yes, the Big Ten schools make lots of money. With the exception of recently-added Nebraska though, they're also all world class research universities.

Ohio State spent over 800 million on research. Michigan (and I believe Penn State acutally) spend over 1 billion. Having sports is nice. It helps attract talented undergrads, which can (in a roundabout way) help boost graduate programs. It helps buy a favorable political coverage in times of fiscal austerity. If you're a huge research school though, it's pretty clear that sports come second.

Ohio State changed the mission of their school in the early 1990s. Before that, the mission of the school was to reach any HS graduate in Ohio...the school had basically no admissions requirements. During the first Gee presidency, the school decided to change their focus away from teaching and towards becoming a competitive admissions institution, which has allowed it to procure grant money that drawfs what we get in football.

Your chart just shows that we're awesome at sports.

OSU continues to be the epitome of this issue. One just has to read the posts in the sports section of this forum which are related to collegiate sports, or any of your frequent defenses of college athletics in this forum, to see that.

I think college football (and college sports) are great. When administered properly, they can have a positive academic and fiscal impact on a university. When administered poorly, they can help screw things up. If a school is spending big big bucks on sports without trying that money back into academic programs, then I think you start to have problems.

 

[downtown]

According to documents released by ESPN, the NCAA actually planned to give Penn State a 4 year death penalty 5 DAYS after the Freesh report came out, then changed their minds and settled on this.

That actually makes the NCAA look kinda bad. This whole punishment process was more rash than I thought.

 

[MobBoss]

According to documents released by ESPN, the NCAA actually planned to give Penn State a 4 year death penalty 5 DAYS after the Freesh report came out, then changed their minds and settled on this.

That actually makes the NCAA look kinda bad. This whole punishment process was more rash than I thought.

What do you mean by 'more rash'?

 

[downtown]

What do you mean by 'more rash'?

There is an infraction process that the NCAA follows, and it usually takes a long time. It gives the institution time to respond, and goes before an infraction committee. In this particular case, the NCAA gave unprecidented power to the head of the organization, and bypassed most of the procedural steps in handing out a punishment. I'm not even sure Penn State had a chance to formally respond to the NCAA inquiry letters.

I'm not saying the punishment wasn't justified. I certainly think it was. I do worry that this could create some dangerous precident for other NCAA cases though. Miami(FL) has one pending right now. I bet they are peeing their pants.