Parents Concerned about Religious Indoctrination in School

cegman said:
Honestly I love this. It makes me laugh. It is as outlandish as people complaining about using a meeting hall in a church for a school event. It is as crazy as someone complaining about having a cross on a football helmet. It is just absurd. I can't think of how many times I've tried to think of something like this to show just how crazy it is to remove anything that might be considered religious. Life shouldn't be about removing yourself from any religion but to open yourself up to learning about it and deciding how you feel about it. (Same for the Freedom OF Religion.) Where ever possible we should have more but if certain groups like the Madison Wisconsin group Freedom From Religion are going to make lawsuits like this then group with other views should make lawsuits in ways that can to create a Judicial Precedent.
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Hey, just as long as you can find an excuse to virtually guarantee the bullying of kids who don't conform to the region's majority religion it's all good.
 
I went to high school from 2002 - 2006. I am aware of a large number of Lutheran's and Catholics in the school. I am also aware of Atheists, a few Muslims, and at least on Hindu. I am aware of bullying that went on within the school. I never saw or heard anything remotely close to bullying because of religion in this mainly white suburban mostly christian school. There was a small band of 5-6 hicks in a class of only 400 who did attempt to bully a gay atheist but there was a much larger group of people that pushed them back. Usually people went out of their way to learn about their religion with interest. At least when I was around....

Maybe I was just lucky that my school was better than most but I honestly around here religion doesn't come up much in high school.

Oh I forgot the Sihk family that moved into the area. The girl my age was cute too bad I never had a chance to talk to her... Sorry late night tangent.
 
Right. Now you're saying that a kid having to "excuse themselves" before organized prayer in homeroom wouldn't make them a target?

Because that's what this is all about. It'll creep one way or creep the other. Nobody is going to be able to laser-target it at precisely "fair."

I'm comfortable with erring on the side of less religion in school. It's not out of malice, but a desire for safety and the fairest possible outcome.
 
Straw Man. I'm not talking about having prayer. You want to argue with someone that wants homeroom prayer go right ahead. You aren't talking to me.
 
cegman said:
Straw Man. I'm not talking about having prayer. You want to argue with someone that wants homeroom prayer go right ahead. You aren't talking to me.
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I'm explicitly making something like a slippery slope argument. I know, that makes it sound bad, but I feel like this is a case where it's true.
 
Ok I'll give you that it could be considered slippery slope but it is also a straw man as it makes me appear as if I am arguing in favor of homeroom prayer when I am not. You are then arguing against the idea of homeroom prayer which I would argue against as well. So I guess you just went with two logical fallacies. I'm too tired to try to argue away from a logic fallacy. I'm just going to call you out on it and say if you want to argue against my point that I did not see religion as being a major reason for bullying in my personal experiences (very limited could gather more information) then I welcome it.
 
Accepted without reservations. Well I'm off to bed. Enjoy the night. If you are up for a read go check out the actions of the Freedom From Religion group.
 
VRWCAgent said:
And there you have it. It is a part of Hinduism. So very sorry, but if you don't want any conceivable religious influence, you don't get to pick and choose. No Christian influence, no Hindu influence. It's only fair, after all. Right, aclu?
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Only the religious aspects can be completely separated from the physical regimen without any adverse effect. In fact, millions of Christians in the US practice yoga without worshiping a single false deity.

And I fail to see how the ACLU has anything to do with this. Do you have a source which states they are involved in this in any manner, shape, or form? Or is this just yet another rant against an organization which continues to protect your constitutional rights, as well as mine? Why would that possibly be objectionable in any way?
 
It's because the ACLU tries to protect the rights of people with less privilege than that of straight while males.

That is why conservatives hate the ACLU.
 
druidravi said:
What do you mean by spiritualism?

I agree some forms of yoga have religious and so called 'spiritualism ' part . But most of the popular yoga is just a collection of different exercises .
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As you point out, my use of "spiritualism" was inaccurate. I meant to say "spirituality" or some form of that word. That was an error.

As you no doubt know, there are many forms of yoga. There's Hatha yoga, which is the type most Westerns would think of when they think of yoga, the stretches and asanas and such. There's pranayama which is breath yoga, that is a discipline related to the use of the breath. Kundalini deals with the movement of spiritual energy ("chi" if you like) within the body. Viniyoga, while it focuses on physical work, includes a psychological component. Other types of yoga are expressly spiritual devotions.

These different types of yoga are not exclusive to each other; the Kundalini practitioner also incorporates asanas and pranayamic breathing exercises within kundalini practice. It is this holistic approach that seems to be at issue.

The contemporary Western mindset likes to put things in boxes with boundaries. There's the "work" part of life and the "home" part of life and when the businessman performs work tasks in the domicile he is said to "bring work home with him." That is the work portion of his life has invaded the home portion of a life. The businessman generally sees the work and home parts of his life as being separate and distinct despite the occasional overlap.

Then there's the experience of the Trappist monk. The monk makes jam and performs religious devotionals. To the monk, these are not separate; making the jam is a devotional act in and of itself. Both are aspects of the monk's life, a life he as turned to devotion of God.

Contrasting the experience of the businessman with that of the monk we can see that the former has compartmentalized parts of his life into distinct portions that overlap with each other whereas the latter sees his life, in all its facets, as a holistic act of devotion. Expressed visually, the difference is akin to the difference between van Gogh and Lichtenstein's Bedroom at Arles.

Van Gogh's
Spoiler :


Lichtenstein's
Spoiler :


The sharp color contrasts and dark lines of Lichtenstein's work seems to compartmentalize each artifact in the room, thereby making each item a thing in itself. Whereas the more muted lines and color contrasts of van Gogh soften distinctions between individual pieces of the room and draw the eye to the whole, rather than the particular. Lichtenstein's piece represents the businessman and van Gogh's the monk.

The businessman's view of the world is representative of how Westerners generally view the world, full of parts separate and distinct. The monk's idea of the self as a holistic agent is representative of the traditional Oriental means of thought.

"But wait," you say, "I thought we were talking about yoga." Yes, well the difference between the Western and the Oriental point of view brings this right back to yoga. The Western may say, utilizing a compartmental point of view, that there are different types of yoga. In contrast, the traditional Oriental point of view would be that there are different aspects of yoga that can be discussed separately, but cannot be totally divided from the whole anymore than the rye and pumpernickel portions of a loaf of marble rye can be separated from themselves while retaining the identity of the loaf as a whole.

Now, we can have these different ways of considering yoga, compartmentalized or holistic. I contend that it is superior to consider yoga in the light of a holistic worldview (Oriental) principally because the vocabulary and mindset is better suited to the broad discipline of yoga. The compartmentalized worldview can describe yoga, but it cannot do it as well as the holistic worldview. This is akin to describing to another how to perform medical procedures using the vocabulary of a mechanic, rather than a doctor. You could probably describe how to perform simply procedures, like resetting a bone or stitching a laceration, but you simply cannot describe how to perform complex procedures, like neurosurgery; the vocabulary simply breaks down. The same is true of yoga; the compartmentalized worldview of the west can perform a yeoman's job of describing of yoga but it eventually breaks down and cannot describe as fully yoga as the holistic view can.

We must consider yoga as a vast discipline that encompasses spiritual and religious practices as well as purely physical exercises. Accepting the use of the holistic worldview to describe yoga, we cannot fully separate those elements from any other. As such, we must accept that yoga is a spiritual, as well as a physical, and a religious, and a psychological, discipline.
 
BvBPL said:
. Kundalini deals with the movement of spiritual energy ("chi" if you like) within the body.
These different types of yoga are not exclusive to each other; the Kundalini practitioner also incorporates asanas and pranayamic breathing exercises within kundalini practice. It is this holistic approach that seems to be at issue.


Now, we can have these different ways of considering yoga, compartmentalized or holistic. I contend that it is superior to consider yoga in the light of a holistic worldview (Oriental) principally because the vocabulary and mindset is better suited to the broad discipline of yoga.

We must consider yoga as a vast discipline that encompasses spiritual and religious practices as well as purely physical exercises. Accepting the use of the holistic worldview to describe yoga, we cannot fully separate those elements from any other. As such, we must accept that yoga is a spiritual, as well as a physical, and a religious, and a psychological, discipline.
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That was an excellent post which conveyed to me clearly your position on this issue. My position differs in some points which I'm going to mention

Do we believe in this age and time about spiritual energy or chi? . While all the negative energy, positive energies , chakras might sound wonderful in oriental religions, cultures that's all a big hogwash for me from my perspective as an atheist.

I would say instead of the eastern /western viewpoints about yoga we should consider what is the purpose of the yoga practician and his thoughts about it. In a typical western setting the person who is doing yoga is only exposed to the physical benefits of it. The instructor tells him , this asana is beneficial for throat ailments.

If instead the exactly same asanas were being done with the instructor saying this would activate your visudhha chakra, which will help reduce your throat ailments then the motivation would be spiritual . I would object as well to such a mode of instruction .

I would say finally the motivation for doing the asanas, the way they are described to the student matters most . If they are being taught as a simply physical exercises , stretches which keep your body healthy it ends there . If the student and the instructor do not treat it as some spiritual process it will not be . There can be no involuntary spiritual process taking place in the background.

Thats my perspective as an atheist . I can see the religious view point which believes in chakras and such . To them the student is unwittingly through asanas activating his chakras and stuff , which might even be akin to some satanic ritual for the western religions .
 
I find it ironic that this comes from a poster whose location is the Spirit World.

Just a meaningless observation. Don't mind me.;)
 
Borachio said:
I find it ironic that this comes from a poster whose location is the Spirit World.

Just a meaningless observation. Don't mind me.;)
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Aww you are right :hammer2:. My avatar was based on Aang from the last airbender . Right now in the story he is dead and so in the spirit world.

Make no mistake even though I am an atheist , I love all these spiritual stuff , fantasy stuff and so on . I dig series with a lot of spiritual fantasy element like the air bender, Wheel of Time and so on .
 
Are you an

asdasjfsajodiasjfoaisdjoafijsda-ian?


Cool.

I'm a Discordian Universalist, myself. How do you do?
 
the asdjio spiced with an f once in a while are the best mash keys. :p
 
VRWCAgent said:
Frankly, I think if fitness is the goal here, we should just institute JROTC courses in all junior high and high schools. Forget this eastern mystical stuff. Push-ups, sit-ups, running, weights, teamwork, discipline. That's what the kiddies need.
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But you do stretching in any military fitness training, plus any old cross-training occasionally. Yoga fits those bills.

It's possible that the yoga was done in a way that was more in touch with its religious origins than what the parents wanted, and it'd be simple to alter it as simple it is to make a 'secular' yoga instructional DVD and sell it at WalMart.
 
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