Paris burning

storealex said:
Those senteneces you mentioned seem very harsh. Is that the typical sentence, or the "worst case scenario" for a criminal?

The ones I mentioned are maximum sentences from places like California and major urban centers where most gun violence takes place. The penalties get lesser the more rural you go. 1st time offenders sometimes get off easy but repeat offenders get it bad.

Of course federal violations is things like having or selling sawed-off shotguns and nasty stuff like that. Those will get you many years in a cell.

The penalties are different everywhere you go in the US. For concealed weapons (guns and knifes) can get you two years if the state has it as a misdemeanor and probably around 5 years if the state considers it a felony. In California and a couple of other states, if its your third offense, then you get get life.

Anyway, if indeed he can expect to be so severly punished if caught, let me ask you; How big is his chance of getting caught? From what I've heard from the Americans I've met, gang related violence is the big cities can be very hard to investigate, while if somebody does something in the countryside, everybody knows who did it.

Well, 70% of all murders in the US are solved (according to the FBI).
And modern ballitics and "firearm fingerprinting" means that murder with firearms are increasingly easier to solve. Especially since gang violence usually takes place on the streets with witnesses everywhere.

But stuff like people just carrying around a gun in their car or keeping machine guns in their basement is not really enforcible (in the US and in Europe) until police have a search warrant given to them by a judge.
 
TheEvilCheater said:
gah your thick.
Bah you're an idiot. Now shall we continue down the road of insults, or refrain from such rubbish?

TheEvilCheater said:
How do you know its broked on a large scale all teh time?
bugfatty said:
Example. Washingdon D.C. has a 100% ban on all firearms. No one can own or even keep any handgun or musket. Not even papa's old squirrel gun locked up in the addic is legal.

DC has one of the highest handgun murder rate in the country.


TheEvilCheater said:
Its a city of over half a million its has a mind blowing 240murders. 3.5k Robberies. It doesnt seem like its awash in violence. But thats with guns banned. Theres places with more guns and less crime. The crime rate in DC is to be excepted of such a large urban area. You ban guns they still get them.
It's a city of over half a million, with 240 murders. Now Copenhagen is twice as large, yet the entire country only had 63 murders in 2001. You ban guns they still get them, yes, some of them. Some do not. You ban guns, the ones who still get them might end up in prison for having them, instead of getting nicked for using them.
 
French violence hits fresh peak

A night of rioting in France has left 1,408 vehicles burnt out and resulted in 395 arrests - the highest tolls yet in 11 nights of unrest.

Ten policemen were injured by shots and stones when they confronted 200 rioters in the Paris suburb of Grigny, with two policemen seriously hurt.

President Jacques Chirac has said restoring order is his top priority.

Meanwhile a man who fell into a coma after being beaten last week is thought to be the first fatality of the unrest.

Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec, 61, was reportedly struck by a hooded man in the street after he and a neighbour went to inspect damage to bins near their apartment block in the town of Stains, in the Seine-Saint-Denis region outside Paris.

His widow has been received by Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy.

Appeal to Muslims

Muslim leaders of African and Arab communities have also issued a fatwa, or religious order, against the riots.

"It is strictly forbidden for any Muslim... to take part in any action that strikes blindly at private or public property or that could threaten the lives of others," the fatwa by the Union of Islamic Organisations in France said.

Hundreds of cars were set on fire in different towns on Sunday night, and police had to use tear gas to disperse a club-wielding mob in Toulouse.

Unrest has gripped areas with large African and Arab communities since the deaths of two youths in the rundown Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois, who were accidentally electrocuted at an electricity sub-station after reportedly fleeing police.

Mr Sarkozy's oft-cited description of urban vandals as "rabble" (racaille) a few days before the riots began is said by many to have fuelled tensions.

Reports of a police tear gas grenade hitting a mosque during the riots further inflamed feelings.

Despite the controversy over Mr Sarkozy's remarks, a CSA opinion poll published in Le Parisien at the weekend showed him with a nationwide approval rating of 57%.

Police under attack

The two police officers were injured by gunfire in what police described as an "ambush" in Grigny late on Sunday.

They were taken to hospital with wounds to the leg and throat.

Police chiefs said their men were being deliberately confronted by gangs apparently intent on fighting them.

"They really shot at officers, said local police commander Bernard Franio.

"This is real, serious violence - not like the previous nights. I'm very worried because this is mounting."

In the southern city of Toulouse, police fired tear gas grenades to push back rioters and violent attacks were also reported in Marseille, Saint-Etienne and Lille.

Of the 1,408 vehicles burnt, 982 were attacked outside the Paris region as the "shock wave" from the Paris region reached the provinces, in the words of national police chief Michel Gaudin.

"The law must have the last word," Mr Chirac told reporters in his first public address on the violence on Sunday.

He promised arrest, trials and punishment for perpetrators but added that "respect for all, justice and equal opportunity," were needed to end the unrest.

Mr Chirac had faced criticism from opposition politicians for not speaking publicly about the unrest since it began on 27 October.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4413250.stm

To the apologists for the rioters: Let the record show that the first shots were fired by the insurgents. The first murder was commited by the insurgents. The French government should resign in disgrace. A civil war is breaking out and spreading across the country, and it refuses to bring in the army, out of political cowardice. Its failing to perform its most basic duty: to protect the lives and property of its citizens. How many will die before the government is shamed into real action?
 
storealex said:
Bah you're an idiot. Now shall we continue down the road of insults, or refrain from such rubbish?






It's a city of over half a million, with 240 murders. Now Copenhagen is twice as large, yet the entire country only had 63 murders in 2001. You ban guns they still get them, yes, some of them. Some do not. You ban guns, the ones who still get them might end up in prison for having them, instead of getting nicked for using them.


Ok and now i refer you to the fact that after guns were banned in Britian crime including homicides went up . Countries like switzerland with high per capita gun ownership have lower crime rates than countries that have banned guns.

Its boils down to cultural conflicts,social and economic reasons. O sure you ban gun guns you'll stop a criminial here and there from getting it. But knifes are also quite effective as is any blunt object. And is keeping it out of the hands of a few criminails who by in large will still get them really offset taking them away from law adbiding citizens? Hardly
 
Do me a favor guys, take your bickering over gun control to a new thread. Making new threads is easy;)
 
TheEvilCheater said:
Its boils down to cultural conflicts,social and economic reasons. O sure you ban gun guns you'll stop a criminial here and there from getting it.
This is what I have said all along. Glad to see that you finally agree with me.

Have a nice day, I'll go watch TV.
 
storealex said:
This is what I have said all along. Glad to see that you finally agree with me.

Have a nice day, I'll go watch TV.

ug what . Bah

im finding a time machine personally


Anyways to appease Bozo Erectus ill talk on subject tooo

With the roits spreading across france and some guys getting burnt else where. Does this show a problem with europe as a whole socially regarding the intergration of immigrants into the european culture?
 
Bozo Erectus said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4413250.stm

To the apologists for the rioters: Let the record show that the first shots were fired by the insurgents. The first murder was commited by the insurgents. The French government should resign in disgrace. A civil war is breaking out and spreading across the country, and it refuses to bring in the army, out of political cowardice. Its failing to perform its most basic duty: to protect the lives and property of its citizens. How many will die before the government is shamed into real action?

well, I can't find anyone in this thread who says that it's ok that they're riot, just that there are deeper reasons that led to this, something the black-white painters of course don't want to acknowledge...
Furthermore, I find your hyperbole quite ridiculous: civil war :rolleyes: gimme a break....
 
Kaeptn, a riot is something that happens spontaneously once, or twice. Whats happening right now isnt mere rioting any more. If 'civil war' makes you feel uncomfortable, what would you call it instead?
 
Bozo Erectus said:
Kaeptn, a riot is something that happens spontaneously once, or twice. Whats happening right now isnt mere rioting any more. If 'civil war' makes you feel uncomfortable, what would you call it instead?

Civil Unrest is a good term. Not quite a war yet. But simmering hostilitiess
 
Bozo Erectus said:
Kaeptn, a riot is something that happens spontaneously once, or twice. Whats happening right now isnt mere rioting any more. If 'civil war' makes you feel uncomfortable, what would you call it instead?

How long did the LA riots run? Or the ones in '68?
 
I find it vastly amusing. I wonder how many people will continue to claim western superority after this and New Orlenas :lol: is it just me or is the "Third World" better able to handle these kinds than the almighty West?

Was there riots or anarchy or looting after the tsunami or the the Kashmir quake? Or the flooding in Bombay or Bangalore? Not at all.
Ah thats rich.....
 
Yeah, I guess Im engaging in hyperbole. But I just cant understand the nonchalant attitude people have towards this story. IMO, this is THE most important issue right now. It trumps Iran, North Korea, Iraq, and yes of course, the mythical bird flu virus everyone is having coniptions over. The reason why I think its the most important story is that its the harbinger of things to come, all across Europe in the coming years and decades. The clash of civilizations is real, and its going to become increasingly difficult for people to continue denying it as time goes on.

Wake up everybody, the canary just died! ;)

@Igloo, LA riots didnt last this long, and they were restricted to one city. The 68 riots I have no idea.
 
You know, im finding it strange that French people are not responding to this present situation with greater outrage or urgency, even the people who I can identify as from France on this forum are taking a laid back approach this present situation. Contrary to condemning the prepatrators of the riots, they are instead talking too much about faults within their goverment policies and other such stuff. If its just the government thats talking such, hey! its politics afterall and noone believe its a true indication of popular opinion. I think its worrying that the French people to adopt such a self flagellating atitude, imagine they were the ones who banned Muslim headscarves only a few years ago!
 
Bozo Erectus said:
Yeah, I guess Im engaging in hyperbole. But I just cant understand the nonchalant attitude people have towards this story. IMO, this is THE most important issue right now. It trumps Iran, North Korea, Iraq, and yes of course, the mythical bird flu virus everyone is having coniptions over. The reason why I think its the most important story is that its the harbinger of things to come, all across Europe in the coming years and decades. The clash of civilizations is real, and its going to become increasingly difficult for people to continue denying it as time goes on.

Wake up everybody, the canary just died! ;)

@Igloo, LA riots didnt last this long, and they were restricted to one city. The 68 riots I have no idea.

I find it less symptomatic of a "clash of civilizations" as a widespread socialization problem. Surely the current US lead in the Western Civilization section of the graph would mean that the muslim community would be close to rioting in the US as well, if it were the Clash?
 
IglooDude said:
How long did the LA riots run? Or the ones in '68?

Till everyone had a new 2nd hand/brand new TV :D
 
silver 2039 said:
I find it vastly amusing. I wonder how many people will continue to claim western superority after this and New Orlenas :lol: is it just me or is the "Third World" better able to handle these kinds than the almighty West?

Was there riots or anarchy or looting after the tsunami or the the Kashmir quake? Or the flooding in Bombay or Bangalore? Not at all.
Ah thats rich.....

The West is always superior.

The difference between West and East?...Your hemisphere regards life as cheap.

Our police don't tend to mow down hundreds of citizens with machine gun fire to quell unrest.

Although I can see the efficiency of such actions.

.
 
IglooDude said:
I find it less symptomatic of a "clash of civilizations" as a widespread socialization problem. Surely the current US lead in the Western Civilization section of the graph would mean that the muslim community would be close to rioting in the US as well, if it were the Clash?
There are good reasons why this isnt happening, and isnt likely to ever happen in the US.

1. Arabs and Muslims in the US arent discriminated against like they are in France. Theres no comparison at all. Muslims here are free to be Muslim, and to fully participate in the economy to whatever level theyre comfortable with. In America, the only color that matters is the color of money.

2. It wouldnt be tolerated, and everybody knows it. The Army and National Guard would be fully deployed in the troubled areas immediately, with shoot to kill orders.

edit: also, 3. The population of the US is so huge and diverse, compared to most European countries, that its unlikely Muslims would ever make up a large percentage of the population. The numbers just wouldnt be there for a mass uprising, even if they wanted to (which they dont).

edit 2: Oh, didnt address the societal problem vs clash of civilizations aspect. The West isnt the only civ involved, Asia is fully engaged in the struggle as well. Hell, even China has Muslim insurgents, for Chrissakes! But anyway, each seperate instance of conflict may not seem like a big deal when looked at in isolation, but if you put them all together and take a look at the big picture, it seems hard not to come to the conclusion that its a 'clash of civilizations' and not merely 'societal problems'.
 
CurtSibling said:
The West is always superior.

The difference between West and East?...Your hemisphere regards life as cheap.

Our police don't tend to mow down hundreds of citizens with machine gun fire to quell unrest.

Although I can see the efficiency of such actions.

.

Rediculous.

-Japan is technologicly more advanced

-S Korea is the most productive country in the world per worker.

-India has one of the lowest crime rates in the world

-China has most poppulation of the world ,the strongest growing economy to


Many eastern country's have exceled in certain fields in the past where the West had to follow.

Besides ,we arn't clean of our own set of problems.Teh west has high stress ,considerable crime rate's ,other social problems ,etc.
 
TheDuckOfFlanders said:
Rediculous.

-Japan is technologicly more advanced

-S Korea is the most productive country in the world per worker.

-India has one of the lowest crime rates in the world

-China has most poppulation of the world ,the strongest growing economy to


Many eastern country's have exceled in certain fields in the past where the West had to follow.

Besides ,we arn't clean of our own set of problems.Teh west has high stress ,considerable crime rate's ,other social problems ,etc.


I do not discount the very valid points you make, and they are true...But consider this:

If the West is so inferior, why is our monetary and economic culture the one
that is practiced the world over? Why do businessmen all over the world wear
Western style suits and use laptops with Windows?

Why is the USA the leader in most technology industries?
How come our people have the highest wages and life expectancy?
Why has Scandanavia got the highest standard of living in the world?
Why has the UK made 65% of the worlds innovations since 1945?
Why does Western architecture pervade almost every modern city???

Need I go on????

.
 
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