Paris burning

[kryszcztov]

To all of you thinking that the strong response is the only solution for that :
If you had AIDS, would you expect a vaccine in the future, or would you want to only rely on current therapies ?

 

[luiz]

In most countries, the poor are significantly less likely to vote regardless of the circumstances. This is only to be expected as getting involved in the political process usually requires expending time and money that the poor simply do not have. Also, the better-off will, because they have time and resources to spare that the poor do not, be more effective in pushing their agenda anyway, leading to a fundamental disenchantment with politics that leads many people to not even bother voting. Finally, if most people in a country are well-off enough, the poor might not be able to improve their position through democratic means no matter how nicely and legally they acted.

Now this may not matter if the political elites do enough to help provide opportunities for better jobs / higher income, or just make sure to throw around enough bread and games to keep the poor pacified, but if they failed in that respect, I wouldn't expect an organized political campaign against poverty to emerge.



(added a 'not' in the sentence because I think that's what you mean)

For most people, violence is a last resort. Same here. Nothing excuses looting and shooting cops, but I'd say it's more productive to look at a long term solution - which will require coopting local community leaders to find out what needs to be done - than marching in with all guns blazing; that's just fighting the symptoms, quite likely antagonizing those who didn't take part in the riots, and guaranteeing that they will flare up again, if not tomorrow then maybe next year.

Yep, I meant "not".
I agree with your general point, and in fact it applies to fighting crimes in general. To prevent crimes you must make sure that there are enough job opportunities, that there is hope for a better future for the poor, etc.

However I strongly believe that symptoms must also be fought, and with emphasis. We can't just sit and watch people commit such acts, action must be taken and a message sent.
The solutions you speak of are all fine, but they are for the long run and certainly do not apply when molotov cocktails are flying.

 

[aneeshm]

Far easier solution - if a rioter shoots at the police with a firearm , he is to become a "casualty" . You shoot , we shoot , citizen or no citizen - and we have bigger and better guns .

 

[aneeshm]

Honestly, do you people even listen to yourselves? Poor minority people with few opportunities riot periodically, in every society. It's not because they're black, or because they're Muslim; it's because they believe, with some cause (just look at the comments here!) that the rest of the country is out to get them, and they want to fight back. In this case, the incident that set it off was apparently a mistake, but it could just as easily have been something more worthy of the response.

You're wrong there . Poor minority people with little opportunity do not riot everywhere . Just look as India - we have many people who may be in the minority , and are poor , but there isn't the sort of rioting that we see in Paris .

 

[aneeshm]

Yeah but you shoot more people then even more people will start rioting.

Then you simply shoot more until they are calm ( or scared s***less , either will do ) .

 

[Little Raven]

Then you simply shoot more until they are calm ( or scared s***less , either will do ) .

Oh yeah. That's definately how democracies handle things.

 

[Nobody]

Riots very similar to this happened in Australia recently, because some poor kids were getting chased by the police and died. It wasnt the polices fault as the kids were cops, but riots ensured for a few days.

 

[Drewcifer]

You're wrong there . Poor minority people with little opportunity do not riot everywhere . Just look as India - we have many people who may be in the minority , and are poor , but there isn't the sort of rioting that we see in Paris .

Rioting isn't necessarily caused by poverty per se. An old history prof of mine used to say that rioting is the breakdown of politics, people tend to take to the streets when they think they have no voice in the regular political process and their interests are otherwise ignored. In otherwords because they think they have nothing to loose.

Rioters should be dealt with as necessary, having done that the causes of their nihilism should be confronted as well.

 

[amadeus]

In otherwords because they think they have nothing to loose.

That may be the initial cause, but I imagine a lot of people are just opportunistic and use the time to loot and vandalize. How many of the people being arrested for looting and rioting actually voted in the last elections?

 

[silver 2039]

There is such a simple soloution. Declare martial law and curfew and send in the army. Anyone seen on the streets after that is to be shot.

 

[Bugfatty300]

To all of you thinking that the strong response is the only solution for that :
If you had AIDS, would you expect a vaccine in the future, or would you want to only rely on current therapies ?

I guess I want the current therapies because with out them I'd be dead long before a good cure came in the future.

And the same goes for the rioters. I'd want an ultimate solution to the problem in the future but in the meantime we can't allow them to destroy neighborhoods and businesses and shoot at police and firefighters.

The rioters have to be stopped before any ultimate solution to come about so send in the phalanxes of club wielding riot police or armed troops if they have to. You can't negotiate with a youth with his T-shirt tied around his head and lobbing molitov cocktails.

This was my opinion for New Orleans and this is my opinion for Paris.

 

[Drewcifer]

That may be the initial cause, but I imagine a lot of people are just opportunistic and use the time to loot and vandalize. How many of the people being arrested for looting and rioting actually voted in the last elections?

You are probably right about that but if the underlying problems go unadressed the spark will return time and time again. Obviously troublemakers tend to come out under the cover of riots but voting isn't the issue, those who are already alienated tend not to vote because they don't think it will change things no matter who wins. It is this nihilism that we (or in this case they) need to find an answer for.

 

[Drewcifer]

There is such a simple soloution. Declare martial law and curfew and send in the army. Anyone seen on the streets after that is to be shot.

Well the first step obviously is pacifying the streets by necessary means. Pains should be taken to do it with as little force as possible while still making it happen. It should be kept in mind though that the underlying problem is probably that for whatever reason France (and to a degree much of continental Europe) don't seem to be particularly good at assimilating Muslim immigrants into the mainstream of their society. At least that is how it looks from afar (folks in Europe will obviously feel free to correct me if I am wrong). I don't see how a draconian crackdown will help assimilate Muslim citizens and immigrants in the long run if it is percieved to be heavy handed and aimed at them. On the other hand you can't have rioting in your city. The authorities need to walk a careful line - a forceful enough presence to end the rioting but not so much that it further alienates those in the community who aren't rioting. The way cities police their minority communities has a profound impact on inter-ethnic relations, in most cases the cop on the street corner is the government official people in those communities deal with the most and the way those people perceive the police has major impact on how they think they are regarded in the broader society. If they see the police and political apparatus that stands behind the police as antagonistic towards them then you may quell this riot but you are just planting the seeds for the next one.

People who have jobs and own their own homes or think they may have those things in the future tend not to riot because they feel invested in their society. This is the deeper issue. As unpopular as it may be to say in much of continental Europe (and the idea has it's faults), American style neo-liberalism is pretty good at this becuase it is easy to get your first crappy job and then move up from there while welfare basically just makes sure that you won't starve or freeze to death and your kids can see a doctor - so there is a strong incentive to work. Working together builds mutual respect when (as is often the case) immigrants and native born people work side by side. As many of you know I run a restaurant kitchen. Most of my staff is from Latin America, so are my sous chefs (assistant managers). I consult at a restaurant at the airport where almost everyone from the general manager to the dishwasher is Somali. Washing dishes may be a lousy job but my sous chefs and I all started there, so did the managers at the airport. I don't think I will be seeing any of my staff or their's rioting anytime soon. Minneapolis/St Paul has a metro population of 3 million and in that are about 300,000 immigrants, roughly a third of them are Muslim. Of course there are some issues but they are generally isolated ones. Immigrants per se are not a problem unless they are allowed to fester on the margins of society and economy with no route to get into the mainstream.

 

[Elrohir]

Listen to Elrohir, he knows what to do:

These rules should be implemented tonight:
The after this any gathering should be loudly told with loudspeakers that they do not have a permit for a gathering, and given a few seconds warning. If they do not disperse, then tasers, rubber bullets, annd tear gas (With lines of policement with shields and clubs moving in steadily backing them up) will quickly break the crowd.

Anyone the Police see shooting at or in their vicinity should be summarily shot in the head. If the crowd reacts violenty (Which it will) then rubber bullets and tear gas must be launched continually until they disperse, as they run move in en masse and arrest everyone you can get your hands on. Anyone caught looting or burning a car is also summarily shot by a rubber bullet or taser and taken into custody, if they are armed at all they are shot with real guns; no sense taking chances and this isn't the time to lose officers.

If things do not calm down (With large amounts of troublemakers dead, incapacitated or arrested it should) then the army should be ordered in (Even the French army should be able to fight off these poorly-armed hooligans) and martial law declared. See how they fare against tanks and armored personnel carriers.

 

[Drewcifer]

I think rubber bullets should be avoided if at all possible, guns leave a bad impression no matter what comes out of them. This doesn't sound like Watts in the '60s. Tear gas, lots of riot cops on horses, and handcuffs are generally pretty good at stopping anything less than a full scale insurrection. People who are pointing guns at the police are a different matter.

 

[kryszcztov]

I guess I want the current therapies because with out them I'd be dead long before a good cure came in the future.

And the same goes for the rioters. I'd want an ultimate solution to the problem in the future but in the meantime we can't allow them to destroy neighborhoods and businesses and shoot at police and firefighters.

The rioters have to be stopped before any ultimate solution to come about so send in the phalanxes of club wielding riot police or armed troops if they have to. You can't negotiate with a youth with his T-shirt tied around his head and lobbing molitov cocktails.

This was my opinion for New Orleans and this is my opinion for Paris.

I think you totally misunderstood me.

If you had AIDS, wouldn't you expect scientists to find a definitive cure, so as to get rid of your disease ? Current therapies are needed, sure, we won't let ourselves being injured and killed by those people. But if we don't work to find the cure, we'll have to fight them again and again and again. That may give you a smile, to see more violent actions from the police, I think it's a desperate move from the State. The current situation shows that the State has no viable answer to the problem, ie. we elect people at the head of the State, who don't have a clue about what to do. Isn't it scary ? And the solution you promote - police & jail - is the same as ever before, and see : 5 millenia of civilization haven't brought a concrete solution to this. You're promoting constant failure... And unlike AIDS, a cure can be found today if we want to. But it's not as thrilling as cops, uh ? As long as you don't live in those areas...

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Todays Paris Burning Update: Anarchy spreading to new areas...

The violence that has wracked Paris suburbs over the past week has spread to new areas and outside the French capital for the first time.

Youths burned buildings and more than 500 vehicles in the eighth consecutive night of rioting. Nearly 80 arrests were made in Paris.

Cars were torched in the eastern city of Dijon, and sporadic unrest broke out in southern and western France.

The unrest was sparked by the deaths of two teenagers of African origin.

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has pledged to restore order following criticism of the government's failure to end violence.

Map of main flashpoints

Thursday night's incidents occurred in several towns to the north-east and west of the capital, including Aulnay-sous-Bois.

Most of the attacks took place in the largely immigrant area of Seine-Saint-Denis, where about 1,300 police had been deployed.

Gangs of attackers

As on previous nights, gangs of youths armed with bricks and sticks roamed the streets of housing estates. The situation had calmed down at dawn.

In the reported overnight incidents:

* A 56-year-old disabled bus passenger suffers severe burns when a Molotov cocktail is thrown on board in the northern Sevran suburb

* Shots are fired at riot police in various parts of Paris, slightly wounding five officers, police say

* A group of officers is targeted near a synagogue in the Seine-Saint-Denis area of Stains, where a primary school is partially burned

* Police say 519 vehicles were burned and 78 people held in the Paris region, in the worst night of riots so far

* More than 100 firefighters fight a blaze at a carpet warehouse in Aulnay-sous-Bois; another warehouse is also set alight in Le Blanc Mesnil area

* Twenty-seven buses are burned at Trappes depot in Yvelines, west of Paris

Outside Paris, as well as the cars set alight in Dijon, unrest flared in the Rouen area of Normandy and in the Bouches-du-Rhone region near Marseilles in the south.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4405620.stm

And the French politicians keep talking and having meetings

 

[silver 2039]

Troops!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[IglooDame]

I'm curious - if you sat down with a rioter or three this afternoon and asked them "what would it take for you to not riot again tonight" what would they say?

I know that I'm not going to get an actual answer to this (unless Marla, Krysz, or Steph have been doing stuff they haven't been telling us about), but what could anyone do to calm this, rather than crush this?

 

[eyrei]

There seems to be some growing suspicion that the groups of rioters are being coordinated in some way. I'm not sure I buy that though...but it is feasible...