Paris burning

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Can anyone blame employers if they are hesitant to hire a Mohammed from one of these neighberhoods after this?....

Sad but true.

The hard laws of modern market neo-liberalism would exclude more people than just religious zealots ,poor people ,uneducated people ,or racial different ones.The fact that social programs and human rights exist show that you can't expect market-liberalism to provide equality or acceptable living conditions for it's employers.This have often been proven in the past (and in Europe it has mainly be up to unions to carve rights for workers) ,or even in the present ,like Western company's who go to Asia to make big profit thx to rediculously cheap labour ,wich leave the workers still in deplorable conditions.

What is origin and cause? Are these people unemployed because they are "anti-social" ,or are these people anti-social because their living conditions or because they are unemployed/have fewer chances?

Well i can safely say that it's probably the latter.Afterall at the turn of the century ,or in the early industrial revolution ,90% of workers lived in deplorable conditions ,and back then the were perceived as rabble to ,especially if they dared to symphatize with socialist dogmatics.And usually if they rioted they were surpressed to.

Measurements are needed ,like a bit of positive discrimination.In certain country's for ex. company's get financial benifit's if they employ a number of immigrants.The amount of such people that then will find employement will often relate to the volume of those advantages ,even if a person is somewhat rebellious or anti social ,if he has hands that can work and he costs virtually nothing he will still be interresting for an employer to employ.It's jsut an ex. of possible measurements.

 

[Winner]

Who said police is doing well? What I see on TV (and I accept the picture may be warped) are burning cars every other night. Clearly, the police is not doing enough to stop the riots. If it did, there wouldn't be any rioting in the first place.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has pledged a "firm and just" response to the country's rioting, as fresh violence broke out in Toulouse.

Curfews have been declared in the Paris suburbs of Raincy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Noisy, starting on Monday night, in an attempt to end 11 days of unrest.

In Toulouse, in the south of the country, rioters set fire to a bus and then pelted police with petrol bombs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4414684.stm

A pleasant surprise, theyre doing exactly what I was just saying: target specific areas, not all of Paris. Not that Im the type to say I told you so But they should have done this a week ago.

 

[amadeus]

France vows action to end riots

Haven't they been saying this for a week now?

 

[Steph]

the people who I can identify as from France on this forum are taking a laid back approach this present situation. Contrary to condemning the prepatrators of the riots, they are instead talking too much about faults within their goverment policies and other such stuff.

Have you read my posts?

 

[AceChilla]

The hard laws of modern market neo-liberalism would exclude more people than just religious zealots ,poor people ,uneducated people ,or racial different ones.The fact that social programs and human rights exist show that you can't expect market-liberalism to provide equality or acceptable living conditions for it's employers.This have often been proven in the past (and in Europe it has mainly be up to unions to carve rights for workers) ,or even in the present ,like Western company's who go to Asia to make big profit thx to rediculously cheap labour ,wich leave the workers still in deplorable conditions.

What is origin and cause? Are these people unemployed because they are "anti-social" ,or are these people anti-social because their living conditions or because they are unemployed/have fewer chances?

Well i can safely say that it's probably the latter.Afterall at the turn of the century ,or in the early industrial revolution ,90% of workers lived in deplorable conditions ,and back then the were perceived as rabble to ,especially if they dared to symphatize with socialist dogmatics.And usually if they rioted they were surpressed to.

Measurements are needed ,like a bit of positive discrimination.In certain country's for ex. company's get financial benifit's if they employ a number of immigrants.The amount of such people that then will find employement will often relate to the volume of those advantages ,even if a person is somewhat rebellious or anti social ,if he has hands that can work and he costs virtually nothing he will still be interresting for an employer to employ.It's jsut an ex. of possible measurements.

There are a lot more poor and unemployed people in Europe then these immigrants. They don't burn cars, shoot police or set fire to schools and houseblocks each night.

 

[Steph]

There are good reasons why this isnt happening, and isnt likely to ever happen in the US.

1. Arabs and Muslims in the US arent discriminated against like they are in France. Theres no comparison at all. Muslims here are free to be Muslim, and to fully participate in the economy to whatever level theyre comfortable with. In America, the only color that matters is the color of money.

2. It wouldnt be tolerated, and everybody knows it. The Army and National Guard would be fully deployed in the troubled areas immediately, with shoot to kill orders.

I think you overestimate the descrimination a lot. Muslims are free to be muslim in France. All religions are accepted.

2. Apparently, the government thinks shooting to kill could create more problem than it would solve. They think the army is not necessary yet, and they sent 10500 Gendarmes and policemen to the banlieux to restore order.
I hope it give results.

 

[Princeps]

There are a lot more poor and unemployed people in Europe then these immigrants. They don't burn cars, shoot police or set fire to schools and houseblocks each night.

Yes, but these are immigrants who have been allowed to alienate from the society and at the same time they live in very poor conditions. This is what happens when you have failed assimilation policy.

 

[Steph]

Why no curfew ? I don't know, it is a good question.

De Villepin has just told that the law of 1955 has been activated. It means the "préfets" (who are the representant of the Republic in the French departments and region) are now allowed to activate curfew as they see fit.

 

[Steph]

I don't know how exacly the French parliamentarian system works. Is it the president, or the prime minister who can fire ministers?

Both can I think. And the parliament can have a vote of no confidence and dispose of the whole government. But it's hard to do when the government and the parliament are from the same side.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I think you overestimate the descrimination a lot. Muslims are free to be muslim in France. All religions are accepted.

Its too long to quote here, but check out this article. IYO is it inacurate?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/04/business/france.php

2. Apparently, the government thinks shooting to kill could create more problem than it would solve. They think the army is not necessary yet, and they sent 10500 Gendarmes and policemen to the banlieux to restore order.
I hope it give results.

Ok well now that curfews are going to be imposed in trouble spots, how will they be enforced? If police encounter a group of 'rioters' armed with molotov cocktails, are they allowed to open fire on them?

 

[Winner]

Something has to be done quickly. Every other day (night) of the violence makes it more probable, that it will erupt also in the other EU countries. France has the responsibility.

OK, now let's lighten it a bit

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

What i'm surprized about is that we havn't seen a reaction yet by extreme right wing militants.I would have expected that after a number of days ,right wingers would have organized themself in self-proclaimed vigilanty groups to go seek the revolters and go fight with them.Kinda like in the 19th century ,with angry exploited labourers filling the streets ,and factory boss owned "knocking teams " (knockploegen) seeking fights with them. (and genneraly surpressing them)

If it would have been Antwerp i bet the streets would be filled with angry VB'rs by now.Kinda like the usual skirmisches between Skinheads and Punks.

Well... it's for the best afcourse.Something has to be done with the Cité problem anyway.People say that the rioters are goal-less ,but i disagree ,i'm fairly certain that after this episode is over it will pressure the political establishment enough to prevent this in the future.And atleast now the issue is in the Media ,for the whole world to watch.Big prestige hit for France though.

[disable political correctness mode]
Btw ,as for jokes ,if all else would be burned ,i bet "le chommage" will still stand straith.
[/disable political correctness mode]

 

[Marla_Singer]

What i'm surprized about is that we havn't seen a reaction yet by extreme right wing militants.I would have expected that after a number of days ,right wingers would have organized themself in self-proclaimed vigilanty groups to go seek the revolters and go fight with them.Kinda like in the 19th century ,with angry exploited labourers filling the streets ,and factory boss owned "knocking teams " (knockploegen) seeking fights with them. (and genneraly surpressing them)

Far right wingers are always silent... they always strike once the day of elections has come.

 

[Little Raven]

And yet the problem is not that these kids are thugish primatives in need of a strongman. The problem is that they are utilizing technology to take low-tech unrest to a whole new level.

You don't need Akhbar the Headsman. You need (more) Big Brother on the Information Superhighway.

Now isn't that a pleasant thought?

 

[Winner]

Far right wingers are always silent... they always strike once the day of elections has come.

They must be very, very happy now. The immigrants are doing exactly what they want.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Far right wingers are always silent... they always strike once the day of elections has come.

Not in belgium.... and yet they still win at the ellection box ,even more than in France.

But yes ,this is major gain for the extreme right.Especially with the lack of a strong left (declining socialist party ,marginal extreme left wing (still commies for god sake))

 

[sonorakitch]

Yes, but these are immigrants who have been allowed to alienate from the society and at the same time they live in very poor conditions. This is what happens when you have failed assimilation policy.

So now it is the responsibility of the receiving nation to assimilate people? Thats Bullshi_. It is the responsiblity of the immigrants to assimilate. How can you say such rubbish?

My responsibility as a citizen is to welcome immigrants and their culture, but not modify my culture to suit theirs. They made the choice. You are forgetting that.

~Chris

 

[Little Raven]

My responsibility as a citizen is to welcome immigrants and their culture, but not modify my culture to suit theirs. They made the choice. You are forgetting that.

I was under the impression that most of the troublemakers were young French citizens of immigrant descent. Am I wrong?

Because if I'm not, they didn't make any choice at all.

 

[jameson]

I was under the impression that most of the troublemakers were young French citizens of immigrant descent. Am I wrong?

Because if I'm not, they didn't make any choice at all.

Quite so. Assimilation doesn't enter into it, this is lack of equality of opportunities we're talking about.