Paris burning

[sonorakitch]

I was under the impression that most of the troublemakers were young French citizens of immigrant descent. Am I wrong?

Because if I'm not, they didn't make any choice at all.

Yes...you are right. My response is to naziassbandit, I am not attempting to override fact on this important issue in France, which is still unfolding.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

My responsibility as a citizen is to welcome immigrants and their culture, but not modify my culture to suit theirs. They made the choice. You are forgetting that.

~Chris

There is no real cultural difference.These youngesters have GSM's ,drink beer and smoke pot ,go listen to loud rap ,RB or techno music ,party ,mate like rabbits ,all the thing's our regular youth does do.The only difference is colour ,but even then a certain percentage of these rioters is simply of FRENCH decent.

Yes ,don't be surprized about that ,the big difference between these people and others is that they are poor ,unemployed ,low educated ,etc. ,and whiile the majority is of immigrant decent ,there are native Frenchmen among them to.

 

[sonorakitch]

Well, at least your liberal credentials remain sterling. Cost always enters into it, my friend. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

The costs are more than just financial, though. There's a matter of raising a force big enough to secure that much territory. There are issues of jurisdiction and command, policy and goals. These are not simple concepts that can be successfully worked out on the fly. France is facing something that no country has ever faced before. Let's not fall over ourselves in shock because they fail to successfully deal with it in two weeks.On this we agree. Order must be restored. That may require the brute force approach. But France needs to be aware that brute force is a very short term solution. If you have to outspend your opponent a hundred to one in order to stay even, long term success is doubtful.

What??? France is facing something that no country has ever faced before? That is B/S. People are breaking the law, burning, and looting. General lawlessness. Don't turn this into some neo pyscho babble. Deal with the criminals first. Then figure out "Why" it happend. If you sit there trying to figure out what when wrong, you will not recognize Paris before your through.

~Chris

 

[kryszcztov]

There is no real cultural difference.These youngesters have GSM's ,drink beer and smoke pot ,go listen to loud rap ,RB or techno music ,party ,mate like rabbits ,all the thing's our regular youth does do.The only difference is colour ,but even then a certain percentage of these rioters is simply of FRENCH decent.

Yes ,don't be surprized about that ,the big difference between these people and others is that they are poor ,unemployed ,low educated ,etc. ,and whiile the majority is of immigrant decent ,there are native Frenchmen among them to.

I somehow agree with that. Tonight on TV, they spoke about a teenager who got arrested recently. They interviewed his mother, and, as far as I could see, she was white and had a first name and a last name that sounded French to me. Yet he was more following his mates than anything. But the Muslim insurrection is pure nonsense.

What??? France is facing something that no country has ever faced before? That is B/S. People are breaking the law, burning, and looting. General lawlessness. Don't turn this into some neo pyscho babble. Deal with the criminals first. Then figure out "Why" it happend. If you sit there trying to figure out what when wrong, you will not recognize Paris before your through.

~Chris

As far as I am concerned (and I live in Paris BTW), I'm not here to deal with the criminals, there is a police and a government for that. I know it may sound odd to you, but you don't always rely on yourself to defend yourself. So I'm fine sitting in front of my PC, trying to figure out why it happened. And so, what about you ? Are you trying to figure out the reasons for that with us, or are you just stepping by to say "let's send them the army" and disappear into the night ? Because this kind of posts is rather obsolete after 20 pages...

 

[sonorakitch]

krysazclkjtoiug,

What are you blathering about? Who said anything about asking regular Frenchmen to deal with the problem? If you read my post with more care, you will find I am questioning the French governments excuse to handle the mess with kid gloves. First deal with the lawlessness. Then try to find answers. My simple point: first stop the rioting, then try to fix the problem.

I don't think a person of your education should find this too hard to understand.

~Chris

 

[Little Raven]

What??? France is facing something that no country has ever faced before? That is B/S. People are breaking the law, burning, and looting. General lawlessness. Don't turn this into some neo pyscho babble. Deal with the criminals first. Then figure out "Why" it happend. If you sit there trying to figure out what when wrong, you will not recognize Paris before your through.

*sigh*



France is facing something that no country has ever faced before. Yes, all countries have lawlessness and civil unrest. What's new in France is the 'swarming' tactics. That's because the technology that enables such tactics has never existed before. What's happening in France right now would not be possible without cell phones, text messaging and IM.

It's no surprise that police don't know how to handle this. It will take new police tactics and equipment. This kind of 'distributed rioting' will allow an ever-smaller group of people to make ever-larger amounts of trouble, and force the government to expend ever-larger amounts of money and manpower to chase them down one by one unless the government either unleashes the power of Big Brother (which will have it's own downsides) or corrects the imbalances which fuel this behavior. (which, I suspect, will be hard)

 

[sonorakitch]

*sigh*



France is facing something that no country has ever faced before. Yes, all countries have lawlessness and civil unrest. What's new in France is the 'swarming' tactics. That's because the technology that enables such tactics has never existed before. What's happening in France right now would not be possible without cell phones, text messaging and IM.

It's no surprise that police don't know how to handle this. It will take new police tactics and equipment. This kind of 'distributed rioting' will allow an ever-smaller group of people to make ever-larger amounts of trouble, and force the government to expend ever-larger amounts of money and manpower to chase them down one by one unless the government either unleashes the power of Big Brother (which will have it's own downsides) or corrects the imbalances which fuel this behavior. (which, I suspect, will be hard)

Hahahaha...great graphic anyways, even if you are missing my point.

These are the facts: People are rioting. Round up these people and lock them up. Lock them up good. Make the punishment swift. Those that are not citizens, deport them. Then try to figure out how to deal with the cause. I don't buy the idea of text messaging making rioters more difficult to capture and incarcarate. You are selling it; I am not buying it. The French have plenty of resources to collect these people. It just sounds to me like you are trying to make an excuse for this blatant disregard for the law.

The swarming tactics you speak of actually has happend, on quite a different scale, in our own struggle in Vietnam (and Iraq). With unabashed willingness, a government can stop this. It may not look pretty, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that law and order must be restored before the bigger social problems can even be addressed.

Wish I could get a good graphic for that!

~Chris

 

[theim]

I'm interested to see how France performs here. My guess is that they will do something in the classic mold of a Euro-leftist: Eventually order "shoot to kill", then when they are done putting down the violent thugs, apologize to them for not letting them torch more of the city and listen to their demands.

 

[Cheetah]

Round up these people and lock them up.

What LR is trying to tell you, is that it is very hard to "round up" these people. So far the police have arrested over 1200, but the tactics the rioters employ makes it very hard to get them. They can throw some molothov-cocktails and then disappear before police arrive. When the police finally arrive, the same little group is throwing molothov-cocktails another place.

The swarming tactics you speak of actually has happend, on quite a different scale, in our own struggle in Vietnam (and Iraq). With unabashed willingness, a government can stop this. It may not look pretty, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that law and order must be restored before the bigger social problems can even be addressed.

Yes, a full show of force will work. Lock down most of Paris, put APCs at every street-corner, implement a shoot-to-kill policy. It works.

But you can't seriously expect that the French are willing to turn Paris into a bloody Vietnam or Baghdad part deux??

 

[Marla_Singer]

By the way, there's no real lootings in those riots. People are simply burning cars (and some buildings such as schools, kindergardens, gymnasiums...). When they burn a car concession, it's not to steal cars. They burn to put the mess, and now directly flee after having burnt their stuff.

At the beginning of riots, they were waiting firemen (who were escorted by the police) in order to throw stones on them. But today, they don't even do such a thing, they simply burn and flee directly with scooters afterwards. It's burning for burning, to put the mess.

It's obvious that France in general, not simply the government but french citizens in general, have their share of responsibility in what's occuring. However, there's clearly a reject of order in rioters. It's not simply against Sarkozy, it's not simply against Police, it's also against teachers, firemen, postmen, bakers... They believe that there's no strength from the authorities. And the message to send now, in the short term, is simply that when we challenge the authority of the state, we cannot win.

 

[storealex]

Just nuke the areas with rioters. Or give them free wine and croissants. Both would be good French solutions...

uhm...

I have no idea what I would do, if I were responsible in this chaos. Who knows how long this will continue? It only seems like it's getting worse and worse. Curfew and lot's of troops might work. It worked in New Orleans didn't it? If it happened in Denmark, I would like to see these guys ride the rebels down:

(We used them to crush riots before you know...)

 

[Marla_Singer]

I'm interested to see how France performs here. My guess is that they will do something in the classic mold of a Euro-leftist: Eventually order "shoot to kill", then when they are done putting down the violent thugs, apologize to them for not letting them torch more of the city and listen to their demands.

You know nothing about France.

 

[Kayak]

Hm, I've heard there has been a call up of troops, is this correct? Seems like a lock-down may come to pass.

 

[Sophie 378]

@ storealex - I have a vague memory that (decades ago) when the cavelry were sent after UK strikers (not rioters), the strikers had got sharpened poles and entrenchments, so the horses died pretty grusomely. IIRC.

 

[storealex]

@ storealex - I have a vague memory that (decades ago) when the cavelry were sent after UK strikers (not rioters), the strikers had got sharpened poles ad entrenchments, so the horses died pretty grusomely. IIRC.

Ah... but then you should have opened up with artillery bombardment before the cavalry charge

 

[sonorakitch]

What LR is trying to tell you, is that it is very hard to "round up" these people. So far the police have arrested over 1200, but the tactics the rioters employ makes it very hard to get them. They can throw some molothov-cocktails and then disappear before police arrive. When the police finally arrive, the same little group is throwing molothov-cocktails another place.

Yes, a full show of force will work. Lock down most of Paris, put APCs at every street-corner, implement a shoot-to-kill policy. It works.

But you can't seriously expect that the French are willing to turn Paris into a bloody Vietnam or Baghdad part deux??

Hhhmmmm...I don't think it is too difficult to lock down the areas affected by rioting, shoot these gasoline bomb throwers with rubber bullets, cuff them, and throw them in jail. These attempted murderers ought to be dealt with swiftly, and I think then the remaining rioters would think twice before throwing another gas bomb.

And the question shouldn't be based on "when police arrive". The police should be at every street corner affected.

I think you are being to soft on these villains, who are trying to kill French policemen. The rioting will not stop until the French government gets tough.

~Chris

 

[Marla_Singer]

Hhhmmmm...I don't think it is too difficult to lock down the areas affected by rioting, shoot these gasoline bomb throwers with rubber bullets, cuff them, and throw them in jail. These attempted murderers ought to be dealt with swiftly, and I think then the remaining rioters would think twice before throwing another gas bomb.

There's no murder attempt, outside rare marginal cases (obviously a man aged of 68 hasn't survived after having been assaulted on friday night). The purpose is to burn stuff, nothing else. It's purely material. They've stoned cops and firemen at the beginning, but now it's not even the case anymore. They aren't looking for direct confrontations. That's probably because they've understood international media were evaluating the degree of violence not in the number of confrontations but in the number of vehicle or buildings being burnt.

And the question shouldn't be based on "when police arrive". The police should be at every street corner affected.

Haven't you realized that those riots have spread on the territory ? Clichy-sous-Bois, the suburb where things have started, was calm in latest nights. You put cops at one place, they will move at another where there's no cops. Suresnes, a middle-class suburb in Western Paris, has seen cars burning last night. Same for the 17th district of Paris.

I think you are being to soft on these villains, who are trying to kill French policemen. The rioting will not stop until the French government gets tough.

No one is soft towards rioters. That's an urban legend coming from Americans being convinced by the state propaganda having pictured French people as cowards. But it's totally disconnected from the reality. That's what Bozo Erectus has not understood.

 

[sonorakitch]

There's no murder attempt, outside rare marginal cases. The purpose is to burn stuff, nothing else. It's purely material. They've stoned cops and firemen at the beginning, but now it's not even the case anymore. They aren't looking for direct confrontations. That's probably because they've understood international media were evaluating the degree of violence not in the number of confrontations but in the number of vehicle or buildings being burnt.

Haven't you realized that those riots have spread on the territory ? Clichy-sous-Bois, the suburb where things have started, was calm in latest nights. You put cops at one place, they will move at another where there's no cops. Suresnes, a middle-class suburb in Western Paris, has seen cars burning last night. Same for the 17th district of Paris.

No one is soft towards rioters. That's an urban legend coming from Americans being convinced by the state propaganda having pictured French people as cowards. But it's totally disconnected from the reality. That's what Bozo Erectus has not understood.

Don't you think it is being soft to declare that people throwing gas bombs at police are not trying to kill them?

I don't know about you, but I have seen gas burn. It kills when it comes in contact with a human. Throwing gas which is on fire will kill. So it is attempeted murder in my book.

I understand your arguments about the police having to move around. But I know the French police with military support has the numbers to put a couple officers on every street affected, armed with rubber bullet guns and handcuffs. Maybe I am missing something here?

~Chris

 

[Marla_Singer]

Don't you think it is being soft to declare that people throwing gas bombs at police are not trying to kill them?

I don't know about you, but I have seen gas burn. It kills when it comes in contact with a human. Throwing gas which is on fire will kill. So it is attempeted murder in my book.

I understand your arguments about the police having to move around. But I know the French police with military support has the numbers to put a couple officers on every street affected, armed with rubber bullet guns and handcuffs. Maybe I am missing something here?

Indeed, what you're missing is the post you're answering to.

Cops are out every evening at 6pm. When rioters see that, they burn stuff in other districts of the city, where there are no cops waiting for them. As such, the streets affected are those where there are no cops. There are more than 10 million people in Paris urban area. It's impossible to put cops at every junctions of such a wide area.

By the way the large majority of troublemakers are actually more fire-raisers than rioters. They burn stuff and fastly flee before anyone come around. The nature of the riots have massively changed in 11 days.

 

[Verbose]

So now it is the responsibility of the receiving nation to assimilate people? Thats Bullshi_. It is the responsiblity of the immigrants to assimilate. How can you say such rubbish?

My responsibility as a citizen is to welcome immigrants and their culture, but not modify my culture to suit theirs. They made the choice. You are forgetting that.

~Chris

These people ARE integrated, of sorts.

Their parents did the immigration in the 60's to work in the industry. All fine and dandy, doing a honest day's job for an honest wage, integration well on its way (with the occasional pecularity any newly arrived group will display), etc. Until the jobs left and the people got stuck in their suburbs.

Now it's their kids doing the rioting and they are perfectly integrated into their communites.
The problem is that their community is the concrete suburb they are living in, which for dacades have been getting an increasingly more tenous link to the rest of French society. They've pretty much been cordoned off and left to their own devices in there.

This as a conflict between The Suburbs and Official France.