Paris burning

[kronic]

@ Little Raven -- In a lot of countries, it isn't enough to be born there to be a citizen.

That was the case in Germany until recently (1999). You needed to have Ar...German blood.

 

[Marla_Singer]

In France, anyone born in the country is French... and this since the French revolution in 1789.

It's only in case you're born in a foreign country but you've raised in France that you have to make a demand in order to get the French nationality. However, that's very easy.

Sarkozy has indeed talk about expelling foreigners who commited serious violence during the riots, but that's not about people born in the country. That's purely crap. Personally, I think Sarkozy is getting a bit too far here, I totally disapprove his choice, but let's get facts straight.

Anyway, there's a point which is clear and that people must understand : France is since centuries a country of immigration. People tend to always answer me that their countries are the same but France is very specific on this matter. The kids which have burnt stuff in later days are not kids from immigrants who arrived in France 5 or 10 years ago. Immigration from North Africa and Africa started in the 50's. The kids in question are born in France, and many have parents born in France too.

Actually, there's no figure about this but the proportion of people who have origins outside Europe in the French population is certainly above 20%. That figure is fantasy as there's no real figure, the only thing we know, from census, is that there are 5 million foreigners living in France (a country of 60 million people). You add 10 million people who are French from foreign origins and that makes already 25% of the population.

The big problem, in the cités, is that there's no job, and that's not a new problem, it's been 30 years there are no job in the cités. How do you want people to feel part of a society in such a context ? Ok we need education, that's obvious, we need also to get rid of those cités and that's what is currently done with the plan Borloo (old cités built in the 60's are destroyed and changed with new neighbourhoods which are better thought, I would tell more human), but before everything the priority is EMPLOYMENT. People need jobs !

 

[sonorakitch]

Nonsense. First, it is not the Muslims of France who are torching cars. 99% of French Muslims are law-abiding citizens who want nothing to do with the riots.
Second, what you call the headscarf law is accepted and enforced by 99% of the French Muslims. Only a handful of heavily mediated cases posed problems, and now it is no longer an issue in France.
Third, people torching the cars are first of all, and before everything else, youg people turned thugs by poverty and living in ghettos. They are using the islamic rethoric to look important and cool, but anyone just slighty aware of what Islam is about knows it is not about torching cars. And not all rioters are Muslim, far from it.

So your comment shows a poor understanding of Islam, the French society, and the riots.

To all who disagree with me, why don't you get off Civfanatics and read the news:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/09/AR2005110901177_pf.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4395934.stm
http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1580_0_26_0_M

These riots have everything to do with Islam. It is you Masquerouge who demonstrates a lack of understanding concerning Islam and the world.

~Chris

 

[SonicX]

Ok, the riots have now reached my home town and impacted people I know personally

Last night, molotov cocktails were thrown at a few storage depots and factory and some cars were torched in my home town of Genk, a small city of 62 000 inhabitants of whom about 35 % are of foreign descent (though not all muslims, more than half of that number are of Italian descent)
As a city that grew thanks to our coal mines, we also have large concentrations of certain immigrants in cité's like in France. Cité 1 is Italian, Cité 2 Moroccan and Cité 4 Turkish, all of them with a 90 % and more concentration of those ethnic groups, but the situation hardly compares with that of the Parisian banlieus. Those cité's over here are built close to the mines, but are also close to the city center (which is built in the middle of the former mining area). Also they do not consist of those ugly 1 kilometer wide blocks, but almost look like any other area of the city, except that's a bit more monotonous and there are a lot of satellite dishes but that's it.
Unemployment has risen since the closure of those mines and it is the second poorest city of the Flemish region, but it has impacted every group almost equally and there is no mention of any discrimination against any group here.
Crime rates and unemployment are higher in the cité's though, but that's more due to a lack of parental education and a lack of goodwill in their school time than to anything else, as our schools are all free. Still they always go for the lowest degrees, which is due to a subculture more than to discrimination.
A perfect example is the large number of people of Arab and Turkish descent who have outrageous outstanding loans at the age of 18, to buy expensive that will improve their image in the "hoods", while Belgians have no loans at that age at all (not even for college due to the low cost). If they're getting into financial troubles and we are not, it is solely due to the fact that they haven't learned how to deal with social pressure and can't cope with the capitalistic society which tends to screw your financial life up if you're not dealing with it responsibly.

So instead of looking into a mirror and realizing that something is wrong with the way those youngsters are brought up and how they look at their education and spending, some of them are starting to import the French riots to my city, torching a friends car who now has no way to get to college and lost 8000 € because the insurance doesn't cover terrorism (it does cover vandalism, but in this part of the country, those acts of violence meant to cause an uproar are brandished as terrorism to sue the perpetrators in a more efficient manner.)
Luckily they've already caught that "scum" who did it ... none of them will get sued though, they were only 16-17 years old.

 

[Speedo]

What amazes me (without having read the thread) is that the French/europeans seem... pretty tolerant of all of this.

I can tell you that if those kinds of thing happened around here and the gov't refused to do anything (unlikely, that's why we have the National Guard), it would only be a night or two before the little sh*ts were met by a group of good 'ol boys who would be more than willing to draw a line in the sand and dare them to cross it.

 

[SonicX]

What amazes me (without having read the thread) is that the French/europeans seem... pretty tolerant of all of this.

I can tell you that if those kinds of thing happened around here and the gov't refused to do anything (unlikely, that's why we have the National Guard), it would only be a night or two before the little sh*ts were met by a group of good 'ol boys who would be more than willing to draw a line in the sand and dare them to cross it.

Well, we have less patriotism and a more laissez-faire attitude in Europe. Though I am also surprised that there are no acts of retalliation, as there were in the Netherlands where a few islamic school and mosques were torched after the jihad-inspired murder of Theo van Gogh.

I think it's a pity though. I can't do anything alone and I won't go terroristic, but I do regret that nothing is happening to show our discontent.
Perhaps most think that it will pass over ... but still, this whole situation reminds me of a conversation I once had with a Arizonan student in Belgium who strongly opposed hispanic immigration into the US. I took him to Brussels and showed him around and asked him if he still thought hispanic immigration was bad and rather had our immigrants ... he sure did feel less hostile towards Mexicans afterwards.

 

[Insane_Panda]

In France, anyone born in the country is French... and this since the French revolution in 1789.

It's only in case you're born in a foreign country but you've raised in France that you have to make a demand in order to get the French nationality. However, that's very easy.

Yet are they made to feel French? Are they welcomed and embraced with open arms? Or are they merely greeted with a handshake and pushed to the side?

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

To all who disagree with me, why don't you get off Civfanatics and read the news:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/09/AR2005110901177_pf.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4395934.stm
http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1580_0_26_0_M

These riots have everything to do with Islam. It is you Masquerouge who demonstrates a lack of understanding concerning Islam and the world.

~Chris

Hmm ,you call these sources that underline youre argument?

from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/09/AR2005110901177_pf.html :

France's riots have set off a round of troubled debate across the Arab world: Most here blame a failure to offer opportunity to immigrants, but others see a more ominous clash of cultures over Islam

Most attribute the flare-ups to social injustice and high unemployment, rather than anti-Islamic discrimination or a wider culture clash. They have urged the French government _ and the Western world at large _ to take concrete steps to rectify the problem.

"There are no puzzles here. The core problem is mass degradation and alienation manifesting themselves in ... belts of educated, usually unemployed, young men throughout Arab and Asian urban areas; and in parallel urban zones of mass disenfranchisement and marginalization," said Rami Khouri, writing Wednesday in the Lebanon Daily Star.

All these don't go into the muslim argument at all ,rather show that the muslim world sees poverty and discrimination as the root of this problem ,just like most of us.

But Iran has taken a more provocative slant, blaming anti-Islamic sentiment that it contends is widespread across Europe.

Except thus for ... Iran.

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4395934.stm:

Never mind ,what the hell has the headscarf argument to do with this?People arn't rioting over the headscarf ,that episode is over long ago and at most a few veiled woman protested because of it ,no mass riots for this.It's a whole other discussion ,and it's not relevant to the point you want to make.

From http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1580_0_26_0_M:

The deep problem is the sentiment of exclusion from the social and economic game," explains Laurent Mucchielli, director of the Center for Sociological Research on Law and Penal Institutions near Paris.

While right-wing politicians in France (most notably the Le Pen family and the National Front party) are using the riots to strengthen their anti-Muslim stances, the truth is that the reasons for the unrest are the same as those that caused riots in many Western cities over the past few decades. Poor or immigrant communities have not been successfully integrated into the larger society (and in this case, both French and immigrant societies share the blame), unemployment gives rise to crime that compounds the misery of the population, and mistrust between authorities and those in the ghettos snowballs into confrontation. While religious ideology may have a role in other types of violence (i.e, al-Qaida), in this case it just happens to be the faith of the disenfranchised population. Those seeking a solution to the problem would be more effective by looking deeper than that

And thats that ,I don't see any argument within these article's that enforce youre argument Chris ,that this would all be about religion.Wich i think is fairly weird ,you post an argument ,with so called sources to back up youre argument ,but youre sources contradict you.I would ask you to point me out where in these article's it shows religion is the base for this conflict.
In fact all these arguments enforce our ,or atleast Masquerouge's oppinion ,that the root of the problem uis unemployement ,discrimination ,etc..

And then i would ask you to plz don't go making arguments and combine it with multiple "sources" that in fact counter youre argument ,because this is a very unconstructive way of debating.Now i had to read all these article's and quote them to counter youre argument ,and we gained nothing from it.If you going to use sources plz readd them trough first.

 

[Jorge]

What amazes me (without having read the thread) is that the French/europeans seem... pretty tolerant of all of this.

I can tell you that if those kinds of thing happened around here and the gov't refused to do anything (unlikely, that's why we have the National Guard), it would only be a night or two before the little sh*ts were met by a group of good 'ol boys who would be more than willing to draw a line in the sand and dare them to cross it.

Yes, and you would have by this time several persons killed. It´s another approach, but we don´t like to kill people (even if they are burning cars).

 

[eyrei]

Yes, and you would have by this time several persons killed. It´s another approach, but we don´t like to kill people (even if they are burning cars).

Considering we have regular citizens running around with assault rifles, it would probably be more than several killed after two weeks of rioting.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Considering we have regular citizens running around with assault rifles, it would probably be more than several killed after two weeks of rioting.

*Cough* New Orleans + Snipers *cough*

It was a dire picture of American society shown when people in NO started sniping aid workers for not much of an apparent reason ,combined with looting and rape etc...

I don't think you'd see that happen in Europe ,we have regular floods here and usually in such circumstances Europeans tend to knit toghether very closely to help eachother ,i deffinatly never heard of violence out here because of lawlessness after a disaster...

At Sonicx ,pitty to hear about youre friends i can't voice for the situation in the Belgian city's ,on the one hand they are usually poor and unemployed to ,on the other hand in Belgium the have way more representation. (plenty of muslims in Belgian politics ,or people like AEL frontman Abu Jajah) I don't think theire methods are correct ,and i think compared to France atleast in Belgium they have it much easier to do something about their problems trough their political channels.

Btw ,i saw youre sig ,you seem to be A Flemmish nationalist ,even seperatist?Just wanted to ask what party you vote VU (or spinoffs) or VB? Not that i will look down on youre choice ,though i am more leftist and far from a nationalist/seperatist.Though i agree that there do not really exist Belgians.

In my belgian city ,that is Ieper ,this situation isn't likely to happen.Though we have a small minority of immigrants here to ,they are quite integrated ,don't live in ghetto's or pack toghether ,that is because they are quite wealthy as most people from Ieper are.Though we had a rich medieval history ,we Ieperlingen mainly have to thank the Germans for bombing our town to smithereens in WW1.Cause because of this war history ,we now have literaly MILLIONS of tourists comming over every year ,and that for a town of about 30.000 souls ,you can figure that this town is rich trough tourism.A immigrant that opens a Pitta bar in Iepers or a nightshop will be quite wealthy in a short time thx to all these tourists ,well i know a few immigrants here that only started fairly poor a few years back ,opened a Pita bar ,and by now they have a chain of Pitta bars and they are wealthy.In any case we have an excess of labour spot's ,it's hard to be unemployed here.

And that is how it goes ,rich town vs poor city ,afcourse if you live in places like Genk or chaleroi or Liege i can understand the poverty... I think in France it's just the same ,that there are smaller towns in france to ,smaller towns that have a small minority but very good employement possibilety's ,and that because of that these immigrants are simply easily integrated.

 

[Akka]

It's more quiet now, but we're very very wary about the 11th november. The word is, they are calming now just to put it all this day.
We'll see.

 

[Grisu]

That was the case in Germany until recently (1999). You needed to have Ar...German blood.

it's still that way here, just being born here won't earn you the swiss citizenship. actually I thought most european countries still did it like that, obviously I was wrong.

 

[Little Raven]

Considering we have regular citizens running around with assault rifles, it would probably be more than several killed after two weeks of rioting.

We tend to average a couple dozen killed and scores wounded per 24 hour period during riots.

Frankly, it's nothing short of astounding how few casualties this violence has produced.

 

[Akka]

We tend to average a couple dozen killed and scores wounded per 24 hour period during riots.

Frankly, it's nothing short of astounding how few casualties this violence has produced.

It's quite impressive, true, but it also shows how hyperhyped were these unrests in the world, and why most of us found frankly laughable the "civil war" delirium we saw.

 

[Little Raven]

It's quite impressive, true, but it also shows how hyperhyped were these unrests in the world, and why most of us found frankly laughable the "civil war" delirium we saw.

While I agree that the 'civil war' rhetoric was laughable...last night saw 482 cars burned, and that was considered a good night.

I can't remember the last time a first world nation saw 500 cars burned in one night, much less 5000 cars burned in two weeks. There's definitely a major shakeup happening on your side of the pond.

 

[Marla_Singer]

It's quite impressive, true, but it also shows how hyperhyped were these unrests in the world, and why most of us found frankly laughable the "civil war" delirium we saw.

According to CNN, it is thanks to the curfew that things have got calmer.

Of course, no one has told to cnn that there hasn't been any curfew outside few provincial towns...


CNN which is known for its seriousness and accuracy.

 

[Marla_Singer]

While I agree that the 'civil war' rhetoric was laughable...last night saw 482 cars burned, and that was considered a good night.

I can't remember the last time a first world nation saw 500 cars burned in one night, much less 5000 cars burned in two weeks. There's definitely a major shakeup happening on your side of the pond.

Each year in France on new year's eve.

You must know that France is very good at burning vehicle. 5,000 cars burned in two weeks is insane of course, but what would be your reaction if you'd learn that more than 30,000 cars have been burnt since the beginning of the year ?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

It's quite impressive, true, but it also shows how hyperhyped were these unrests in the world, and why most of us found frankly laughable the "civil war" delirium we saw.

Yeah, we can all have a good laugh now that things are starting to settle down. Though it turns out 'civil unrest' isnt much of a picnic either. BTW, you are in a civil war, these have just been the opening engagements. In the next 5 to 10 years, there'll be more.

 

[Jorge]

Each year in France on new year's eve.

You must know that France is very good at burning vehicle. 5,000 cars burned in two weeks is insane of course, but what would be your reaction if you'd learn that more than 30,000 cars have been burnt since the beginning of the year ?

30,000 ? That´s an average of 95 per day!

BTW, why on new year´s eve?