Paris burning

[Marla_Singer]

What I find amusing is how much foreigners see what they want to see in those riots.

No matter if those burning cars were as much from the West Indies and West or Central Africa that they were from North Africa, the explanation is obvious : It's Islam fundamentalism which is all behind ! Right... I didn't know Islam was that strong in Guadeloupe, Martinique, Haiti or Congo...

 

[Princeps]

Sure Islam is truly a religion of peace, I know :shakehead

Well, the actions of Christians have made their religion look like hypocritcal carbage. But, I don't care, everyone can follow his religion, without being responsible for the acts of previous followers.

No, it isn't. Are the fanatical christian blowing themselves in mosques? Are they crashing planes into skyscrapers? No and no.

That isn't their tactic, they are "part of the their people", they dont blow up, they want to take over. The Muslim Extremists get more populicity because they are not of the people that they blow up, they are enemies and can be made scapegoats.

The KKK, for example, which is a Christian extremists group had, at one point, millions of supporters and members in the government.

Fanatism is always bad, I agree, but somehow the islamic fundamentalism is what is causing us trouble. If you insult a christian fundie, he'll most probably say that you are gonna to burn in hell or something like that. If you do the same with a Muslim fundie, you'll be killed.

One of the reasons why Christian extremists do less damage is because they live in countries, like US, which have highly effective law and order enforcing institutions and resources to heavily limit the extremists actions and resources.

This isn't the case in, for example, Pakistan where extremists can have anything from assault rifles to tanks and large explosive devices. Also, they can hide in the rough terrain and establish an effective terrorist organization.

People like WNs (white nationalist, aka Nazis), Christian indentity movement (nazis) etc, would do the same, if they could.

You mean in the Muslim immigrants living there?

They too. But, the people are turned against the Muslims, so that the US' imperial acts in Middle east would be more accepted. Thank God, it has not worked.

If you actually go to many Forums, you'll notice how rampant the anti-Muslim mood is. The Muslims are like Jews where few centuries ago, scapegoats.

 

[Jorge]

No, it isn't. Are the fanatical christian blowing themselves in mosques? Are they crashing planes into skyscrapers? No and no.

You are intentionally messing up things. Terrorist are what they are for political reasons. It´s as if I say that catholic are terrorists because of the North Ireland conflict (do you remind IRA terrorist? They were catholic). It´s true that religion can be used as a tool to unite people in a war against the enemy, but generalising that is wrong (basically you don´t take into account the millions of muslim people that are not terrorist and make your point based in the actions of a few).

 

[Drewcifer]

What I find amusing is how much foreigners see what they want to see in those riots.

No matter if those burning cars were as much from the West Indies and West or Central Africa that they were from North Africa, the explanation is obvious : It's Islam fundamentalism which is all behind ! Right... I didn't know Islam was that strong in Guadeloupe, Martinique, Haiti or Congo...

That is not the point. When a country like France or the US sets itself up as a self-appointed critic of international political morality it can only be expected that when it has it's own internal problems those who were critisized will come out with daggers and agendas in hand. It may or may not be right but it should certainly be expected.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Schaudenfreud?
Is that the word?

It is not right but it is perhaps understandable. Israel has been on the receiving end of many political lectures that were spoken in French.

It is yet another emotion that will not benefit the human race in any way...

It's true that France has been so evil to Israel.

Some facts proving how antisemitic is France :

- France has pressured fiercely on the UN for the recognition of Israel in 1948 (In the 50's, the United States had awful diplomatic relations with Israel).
- France has been the first ally (actually the only ally) to the development of the Israeli nukes.

You're right the reasons why Israelis hate us are so obvious. I'm so stupid !

 

[Marla_Singer]

That is not the point. When a country like France or the US sets itself up as a self-appointed critic of international political morality it can only be expected that when it has it's own internal problems those who were critisized will come out with daggers and agendas in hand. It may or may not be right but it should certainly be expected.

Criticisms are not the problem. The problem is simply about distorting facts.

When I hear all those comments about fundamentalism and I constantly recall that half of rioters weren't even muslim and that people continue to ignore me, then there's a problem.

However, if people want to say that it's the evidence that the French model of society sucks and that French people are racist... or whatever you like, then there's no problem !

Do you understand the difference ?

 

[Leha]

The problem is the heavily biased point of view of Israelis on the situation (not less heavily biased than the Palestinians though, but still insanely heavily biased). Near East is at war, and both Palestinians and Israelis believe their country's existence is threatened. Saying France shares such a situation is really pushing the thing too far.

Anyway, I've read the Israeli media in later days and the least I can say is that Israeli hatred and near racism towards the French hasn't got calmer obviously. It's all about laugh and saying France deserves it. I can't figure out how Israeli media could grow so hateful. This is completely beyond me.

Excuse me, Marla, but I have to disagree.
I find it wrong method to discuss things stating "I'm as a native know things better" (that's why I quit doing this ).
On the other hand, I do believe you know what's happening in France much much better than me (heck, I has never even been to France) and taking into account media tendency to exaggerate, I'm willing to believe you that apparently events are not as much apocalyptic as media pictures them.

Now, there's Israeli media, and there's Israeli media. We're democracy, remember? Lately, especially after extremly warm greeting of our PM in France, all our mainstream media is very friendly towards France, and if it pictures riots in slightly dark colours, that's because of concern, not hatred.
And even before that it wasn't hatred but rather "unfriendly" replies to not less "unfriendly" passe's of french media.
NO (moderate) ISRAELI MEDIA EVEN HINTS THAT FRANCE DESERVES RIOTS. Where did you find such things???

 

[Drewcifer]

It's true that France has been so evil to Israel.

Some facts proving how antisemitic is France :

- France has pressured fiercely on the UN for the recognition of Israel in 1948 (In the 50's, the United States had awful diplomatic relations with Israel).
- France has been the first ally (actually the only ally) to the development of the Israeli nukes.

You're right the reasons why Israelis hate us are so obvious. I'm so stupid !

I never said that France has been evil to Israel and I don't believe it has to any extent. It is just that people in Israel perceive it to be so. I personally don't think France has done anything to Isreal in any real kind of way, though the dialogue has been interpted in that way in Israel. I have often critisized the current Isreali government myself and in no uncertain terms when it seems called for.

I am just speaking about the generally flawed nature of human discourse.
Schaudenfreud is a socially cancerous and disfunctional way of interacting with the broader world.

Please read what I say and not what you read into it. I understand emotions are running high now.

 

[Leha]

It's true that France has been so evil to Israel.

Some facts proving how antisemitic is France :

- France has pressured fiercely on the UN for the recognition of Israel in 1948 (In the 50's, the United States had awful diplomatic relations with Israel).
- France has been the first ally (actually the only ally) to the development of the Israeli nukes.

You're right the reasons why Israelis hate us are so obvious. I'm so stupid !

Jeez, Marla. Why are you thinking israelis HATE french?
There was obvious "cooling" in relations between our two countries and it happens frequently in history. But hate??? Nooo!
And while I agree with your examples of friendliness in 50's, you obviously know why warm relations cooled down, don't you?

 

[Akka]

He he. There is interesting thing happening here, people.
I remember some Israely posters, whenever Israeli/Palestinian conflict was discussed, tried to reason: "Hey, I live here, I see things better"
To wich they were replied (by certain french posters too): " B/S, if you live there doesn't mean I don't know the problem better than you"

AND NOW some french posters state the very same thing. "We live here, we know things better"

The difference is that :
- the viewpoints were quite differents between Israeli posters and medias themselves.
- it was about confrontationnal things (Israelis vs Palestinians).
- it is about international problems.

Here, it's more about social problems, internal to France, with everyone actually having any kind of clue about the situation agreeing on the same point, and people disagreeing being famous for having a particular agenda.
Not exactly the same.

 

[Drewcifer]

Criticisms are not the problem. The problem is simply about distorting facts.

When I hear all those comments about fundamentalism and I constantly recall that half of rioters weren't even muslim and that people continue to ignore me, then there's a problem.

However, if people want to say that it's the evidence that the French model of society sucks and that French people are racist... or whatever you like, then there's no problem !

Do you understand the difference ?

I do understand the difference. If a person makes sweeping statements about any group of people they are prone to making an ass of themselves and yet we all still do it. My perceptions of France are not simplistic. They are mostly based on people from France I know well in real life, some from old stock some from immigrant groups. What I know about it is based on their stories from their own real lives for the most part, some good, some bad.

It is easy to speak in a stereotypical manner about any country on the internet. You do it, I do it too; but hopefully it is possible to leave that behind when it comes time to speak about serious matters.

France has problems with the way it deals with immigrants. Can that point be argued?

 

[Leha]

The difference is that :
- the viewpoints were quite differents between Israeli posters and medias themselves.
- it was about confrontationnal things (Israelis vs Palestinians).
- it is about international problems.

Here, it's more about social problems, internal to France, with everyone actually having any kind of clue about the situation agreeing on the same point, and people disagreeing being famous for having a particular agenda.
Not exactly the same.

OK, don't get me wrong, as I said to Marla, I do believe you know things in your country better.
The method of conducting argument itself is wrong. I'm not going to discuss your 3 points (in general I disagree), it doesn't matter.
I just think you can't use "I'm native" thing to prove you're right.
Again, I do believe you know France much better than me, but somebody else don't.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I do understand the difference. If a person makes sweeping statements about any group of people they are prone to making an ass of themselves and yet we all still do it. My perceptions of France are not symplistic. They are mostly based on people from France I know well in real life, some from old stock some from immigrant groups. What I know about it is based on their stories from their own real lives for the most part, some good, some bad.

It is easy to speak in a stereotypical manner about any country on the internet. You do it, I do it too; but hopefully it is possible to leave that behind when it comes time to speak about serious matters.

France has problems with the way it deals with immigrants. Can that point be argued?

All points can be argued ! Don't pretend I'm dictatorial and chosing what can be argued and what cannot. I'm simply fed up about hearing all those craps about Islam Fundamentalism about a problem which is totally outside that stuff.

If someone who has parents born christian in Benin burns cars in the streets, it won't be because of Islam. That seems rather obvious !

It's exactly the same as if people would argue that those who bombed Amman in Jordan recently were Tibetans and that it proves how evil is Buddhism. It's totally off the point.

 

[Drewcifer]

All points can be argued ! Don't pretend I'm dictatorial and chosing what can be argued and what cannot. I'm simply fed up about hearing all those craps about Islam Fundamentalism about a problem which is totally outside that stuff.

If someone who has parents born christian in Benin burns cars in the streets, it won't be because of Islam. That seems rather obvious !

No, it is not because of Islam. I never said that Islam caused this. And I don't think it did. If you go back to page 10 you will see that.

It is because they were born in France and are still not seen as French by some in the country and this breeds a nihilism that in some cases manifests itself as senseless destruction. At least that is how I see it.

I work in a profession where I am around a lot of people from France. Or at least we call them French, many have families that aren't origionally from France. French chefs who come to the US tend to be white, French cooks who move here tend to not be, at least the ones I have worked with and gotten to know. Though their families may have come from Algeria, Morrocco or Martinique we call them French and they obviously are from an uninvested, unemotional vantage point but they don't see themselves as such. I suspect that this is the crux of the problem. Why don't they see themselves as French? Is it a failure of France or a failure of immigrants? Or something in between? And what can be done to change this? They seem to be pretty good at becoming Americans after they move here. A second generation immigrant seems like a curious concept to me.

 

[kryszcztov]

Note : I'm not a Christian , but I dislike falsehood/misinformation , and I try to correct it whenever possible .

Then try to correct yourself for a change, will ya ? Your record in this thread so far is so lame : making false assumptions and keep on saying them despite many people destroying all your arguments.

Please stop this Israel OT.

Once again, I repeat it, since no one is paying attention. I've watched and heard the news and various programs, last night even Sarkozy (who didn't have it easy) was interrupted all the time by a young guy whose primary purpose was to show off his T-shirt (for a musical disc). Also many young guys setting fire on the cars at night, apparently having lots of fun, taking a break in their own car (lol), listening to loud rap music, before engaging the cops and burning a trash... Never was Islam mentioned as one of the reasons. Biaised program ? I've seen far worse. So those who are fundamentally scared by the Muslims and like to see wars involving Muslims to satisfy their own vision of the world can go on and tell us about the Qu'ran, the Crusades, Muhammad, Al-Qaeda, etc... They'll just miss the debate, period.

 

[kryszcztov]

It is because they were born in France and are still not seen as French by some in the country and this breeds a nihilism that in some cases manifests itself as senseless destruction. At least that is how I see it.

You see it quite well then. "Nihilism" is the word. Fundamentalists (be they Christian, Jew or Muslim) like to recruit amongst such people, "les ratés" (those who failed in their life). Obviously the Fundies didn't take part in the crisis : no message, nothing to be heard as a threat towards our society. Not saying they're not active, just they're not part of the crisis. At the very least, they'll profit from it for later on, after all they need human bombs for Iraq (10 French have died as suicidal bombers so far in Iraq, 0 in France (since 2003)). But they didn't set up this crisis. They recently asked a young guy who was covered under his clothes the reason for burning cars : he didn't expect anything from society, didn't want to make anything of his own life, etc... No future. More punk than Fundie, uh ?

But of course, some people here told us about a civil war, we told them that it was no war, and now that it is accepted it was no civil war, they still want to see a war , so they call the Fundies, we tell them it's not about radical Islam, and someday they'll see that it was not the case... and everyone will forget about those who said BS in this thread... and it will start once again on another topic someday.

 

[Grisu]

Also many young guys setting fire on the cars at night, apparently having lots of fun, taking a break in their own car (lol), listening to loud rap music, before engaging the cops and burning a trash...

I knew it, rap music is the root of these riot, it should be banned

well at least rap music has certainly no less to do with this issue than islam

 

[klazlo]

What I find amusing is how much foreigners see what they want to see in those riots.

No matter if those burning cars were as much from the West Indies and West or Central Africa that they were from North Africa, the explanation is obvious : It's Islam fundamentalism which is all behind ! Right... I didn't know Islam was that strong in Guadeloupe, Martinique, Haiti or Congo...

While I agree with what you wrote in the second part, I don't really like the tone of the term "foreigners". You might be better informed if you are a local person, but at the same time you can be as much biased as the "foreigners".
It's not like "foreigners" are all biased and narrow-minded, in fact in many cases offering a perspective from outside can help in understanding the situation.
And since French are also foreigners for everybody else, your statement could be turned easily.
And those who still buy anything from the corporate media... well, they really deserve it.

 

[SonicX]

What I find amusing is how much foreigners see what they want to see in those riots.

No matter if those burning cars were as much from the West Indies and West or Central Africa that they were from North Africa, the explanation is obvious : It's Islam fundamentalism which is all behind ! Right... I didn't know Islam was that strong in Guadeloupe, Martinique, Haiti or Congo...

Well, in my country, the only people that were arrested were northern Africans or Turks. None of the numerous Congolese, Poles, Italians, Dutch or Greeks were involved.
It's not to blame their religion, but there is something seriously wrong with their culture.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

I just heard on the news:

Chirac has announced that the French are Evacuating France.