Paris burning

[AceChilla]

Where did you here that they dont want to work? of course, they want to work but they fail to get job, and they are god-damnded into life of crime.

Also, the reason why they dont assimilate is because some French fail to give them the chance to do so.

Yeah when you have difficulty finding a job you just HAVE to be criminal don't you. Your offending workless people all over the planet by that statement.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Hmm... Man, then why France need them? No jobs but swarms of arabs/algerians. I fail to see any logic why do France accept them so gladly.
And assimilation... They are just don't want to. How France can set obstrackles to assimilation? I would really appreciate explanation.

 

[Princeps]

Yeah when you have difficulty finding a job you just HAVE to be criminal don't you. Your offending workless people all over the planet by that statement.

These people live in slums where crime is rampant, they can't find job however hard many try, then they find their living in crime, this happens in many places, in the US aswell.

Hmm... Man, then why France need them? No jobs but swarms of arabs/algerians. I fail to see any logic why do France accept them so gladly.

I dont know, I'm not specialist in that area, but there probably is a logical reason. The reason why they have hard of finding job is because of prejudice and generalization. The ones who cant find a job and end up in life of crime, ruin the chances of those who still wish to improve.

And assimilation... They are just don't want to. How France can set obstrackles to assimilation?

Many of them dont want to because may French are not giving the chance of them becoming part of the society, they alienate and get isolated to their slums.

 

[SonicX]

Where did you here that they dont want to work? of course, they want to work but they fail to get job, and they are god-damnded into life of crime.

Also, the reason why they dont assimilate is because some French fail to give them the chance to do so.

Oh, do you really think that people who earn over 5 grand a month minimum dealing marihuana, hash and other drugs are going to work for 1,500 € a month legally if they're being the chance to ?
The immigrants have a choice, try hard to find a normal job like any other Frenchman, or go into crime and earn a tenfold illegaly... those who want to look for a legal job, hats off to them, but many prefer the easy money.
It's not just about French prejudice, it's also about the culture of crime that has settled in those suburbs and the failure of the police to put a stop to that.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

That remind me of rats' extinction methods. You can kill them, drive them out, or throw them a sack of grain, hoping that they'll be thankful for your generousity and leave you alone. Now France run out of grain sacks, but have to deal with swarms of multiplied hungry rats.
Indeed history is a false-science - it learns noone and nothing leared out of it.
Roman Empire practiced once similar thing - bribed barbarians. At the end barbarians multiplied, and when no tribute could be drained out of Rome - they just ransacked it.
Where are your Legions, France?

 

[SonicX]

Well, they still have their elite corps ... oh, those are immigrants as well, right

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Oh, do you really think that people who earn over 5 grand a month minimum dealing marihuana, hash and other drugs are going to work for 1,500 € a month legally if they're being the chance to ?
The immigrants have a choice, try hard to find a normal job like any other Frenchman, or go into crime and earn a tenfold illegaly... those who want to look for a legal job, hats off to them, but many prefer the easy money.
It's not just about French prejudice, it's also about the culture of crime that has settled in those suburbs and the failure of the police to put a stop to that.

5 grand a month on marihuana? You must bejoking ,with a 10% profit margin one would have to sell over 10 Kilo marihuana in a month ,fat chance ,most Hash dealers do about 200 to 500G's in a month ,wich leave's them at about 500 to 1000$ income a month ,hardly to get rich on (although taxfree) ,youll have to switch on the tougher **** to get rich ,but then it's get more dangerous and the taxman begins to wonder how you payd for youre mercedes.Winding up in jail is a piece of cake from there.

Unless well organized crime doesn't really pay.But if you really need money and the richness is for grab around you (they are poor in a very rich and luxurious city) ,and there isn't much chance of obtaining it legaly neither then crime becomes an option ,add to this gang-life (everyone is doing it anyway) ,and it get's understandable that a good portion of the youth in those slums will engage in crime.I say percentage because that is what it is ,a certain percentage of the youth in those circumstances stays law abbiding anyway.

 

[Urederra]

Where are your Legions, France?

In cote d'ivory?

In Haiti?

Very nise analysis, though.

 

[Masquerouge]

Well I thought that maybe, just maybe there was actually something TO the racist accusations but in like the 1st paragraph of the article on the party it mentions only ONE SINGLE reason "ON ACCOUNT OF" which they are labelled by some as racist ... and that reason was opposition to immigration! As if opposing immigration makes you racist!

So it wasn't just one single wikipedia article, but one single paragraph of one single wikipedia article! It was all I needed to read cuz it made clear what the foundation was for the accusations and I KNOW that is not a foundation because being opposed to immigration is OBVIOUSLY not necessarily anything to do with racism.

1.It is forbidden by law in France to express racist/antisemite comments, and thus all political parties must comply with that law. That is why the official platform of the Front National is much, much more PC than the officious one.
2. Wiki. Mmmmh. I wouldn't base my analysis if modern France's political landscape on Wiki.

 

[Elrohir]

I'm just rescanned the thread and I can't find a single post where Akka quoted this, IIRC it was just Marla's post.

I'm willing to guess that the figure she quoted was just a guestimate, but it doesn't change the fact that these riots are about problems of immigration/integration rather than religious problems. Nobody (at least no media I'm aware of) talks about muslim riots, so why do you keep claiming that it's basically all islam's fault?

You're right, I think it was Marla that made that quote, but Akka was backing it up by saying that many of the rioters weren't Muslims.

I didn't say it was all Islam's fault. Significant blame does belong with France for allowing so many fundamentalist immigrants in, and for having such a poor economy. If they had avoided this problem then none of this would have happened. However, the ultimate blame belongs with the rioters, and also their violent religion.

I have a geek in front of me ! Well, I think you asked for it, no ? So it's forbidden to quote the Nazis because it also suits your agenda ?? BTW, I'm not sure if you clearly understood what this law is about, my friend. Never did I call you a Nazi. What I told you is that you had the same logic as anti-semitic people one century ago, leading to Hitler's ascent to power. Ack, maybe you thought that the Internet would magically make the Nazis disappear ?

With absolutely NO argument to back up your claim that the French riots are about Islam, you have lost.

And I have an idiot in front of me, so I guess that makes us even.

I'm sorry, but apparently you don't have enough brains to be an idiot. What is forbidden is mentioning Hitler or the Nazi's when you aren't discussing something that actually pertains to them: WW2, the Holocaust, mass genocide, things like that. You said, and I quote:

It's people thinking like you do who got Hitler in power.

You lose. Of course you are only validating Godwin's Law and it's additional correlaries:

Quirk's exception
Intentional invocation of this so-called "Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.

Guy's corollary
If a Usenet [Or internet] discussion mentions Godwin's law as a conterrebuttal to a mention of Hitler/Nazis, then the probability of Godwin's law being disputed is equal to 1.

I had to try though.

Moderator Action: Warned for flaming
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[kryszcztov]

And I have an idiot in front of me, so I guess that makes us even.

Answer #1 : I'd prefer to be seen as an idiot by a bunch of real idiots and seen as someone who makes valid arguments by those who can see it, rather than the opposite.
Answer #2 : Sorry, I don't want to share your idiocy. Remember the story of those 2 women fighting for a baby ? Solomon confused the one who agreed to share him in 2 pieces with the other woman. Your argumentation matches your quick and void conclusion.

I'm sorry, but apparently you don't have enough brains to be an idiot. What is forbidden is mentioning Hitler or the Nazi's when you aren't discussing something that actually pertains to them: WW2, the Holocaust, mass genocide, things like that. You said, and I quote:

[...]

You lose. Of course you are only validating Godwin's Law and it's additional correlaries:

I don't care about Godwin, nor if God wins. The least I could say is that you keep answering on other subjects while still failing, and I'm still waiting a solid argumentation to back the idea that Islam is what those riots are about. For my arguments, please re-read this thread, instead of ignoring what I say.

 

[Elrohir]

You still lose whether you care about Godwin's Law or not.

I already made my position on why Islam is a cause of these riots clear several pages back. Why don't you just reread them and then post what you disagree with?

 

[Masquerouge]

I think the stats about the %age of rioters being Muslim will be hard to find since France do not keep records on religion. SO you guys are in for a looooong fight

What's more important, though, is that Marseille got relatively spared from the riots, even if it's France's 3rd biggest town.
An explanation for this is that in Marseille the population is globally more mixed than in others towns, resulting in less ghettos, and ths, less angry people living in these ghettos.

 

[Elrohir]

Marla was the one who brought up that figure.

 

[Masquerouge]

Marla was the one who brought up that figure.

You mean, you still do not know Marla ?

 

[kryszcztov]

You still lose whether you care about Godwin's Law or not.

Whatever suits your agenda, I really don't care at this point...

I already made my position on why Islam is a cause of these riots clear several pages back. Why don't you just reread them and then post what you disagree with?

I read your arguments and countered them. Then you left your arguments being countered again and again and again. At this point I have nothing more to add in this discussion, you see ? I'm not here to talk about Godwin's whatnot or the percentage of Muslims in the French riots (which wasn't brought by me, even if it is obvious that one can't conclude anything from such a figure anyway). It seems you like to throw some ideas in the air, not bothering to check if they make sense, if they rationally lead to the conclusion you make, if they're able to be countered by rational points from other people... As long as that suits you, you're not listening anything from anyone. I have nothing to gain by claiming that those riots aren't about Islam as a religion, but it seems you have something to gain by saying the opposite. All the more as all I have seen in the French media (which is very probably 10 times less biaised and 10 times more varied than what you have ever seen for 3 weeks) backs me up, and I shouldn't forget the other Frenchies, plus some American or other people.

Now, if you have nothing more intelligent to post than whatnot about Islam being a dangerous religion, then please understand that I have no interest in continueing this (no-)debate that could be seen as off-topic.

 

[Elrohir]

If you have nothing to add to the discussion, then why don't you stop posting?

I don't see where you countered my posts. But then this thread is 38 pages long, so that's to be expected. Why don't you just quote what you said and let's go on from there?

 

[MamboJoel]

Masquerouge said :

An explanation for this is that in Marseille the population is globally more mixed than in other towns, resulting in less ghettos, and ths, less angry people living in these ghettos.

The direct answer could be : "And they have the highest Front National -Xenophobic Right- in France". They are further than other french cities on the path to integration; a path through difficulties that tend to make xenophobic vote grow on the short term. That's why Marseille, Toulon don't experience to much problems.
In France there is the Republic, whereas in some countries there is a King, the bank, a Queen, or a Bush ( ). It means complete tolerance of each other's nature if they respect the laws of the Republic.
France -medias, politics, regions, associations- never qualifies anybody with their religion, politic views or anything else (Color of skin, I'm ashamed so much americans do that all the time !!!!!!).
I work half a mile South of the spoted riots and live north of the area, I fully support the victims. It's about 15 years old childs on the Nov-1 Nov-11vacation... The mass majority of the French think that the republican values needs to be applied as allways. It means stopping the violence, understanding their reasons and make things change.
Nobody on earth will convince any republican that making mass repression in a social conflict isn't making him grow bigger; And in the first place : that stupidly throwing discriminatory affirmations is an issue. It's not about race since there aren't any to be considered before or after the human one.

BTW, about the very few angry americans : France is condeming it's Chief General in Côte d'Ivoire for trying to hide the kill by some of it's soldiers of a criminal afew month ago. It's war in Côte d'Ivoire, and he's now out of business. I don't remember hearing such discipline in the Great Coalition's operating regions.

 

[Grisu]

I think the stats about the %age of rioters being Muslim will be hard to find since France do not keep records on religion. SO you guys are in for a looooong fight

maybe they should put up a registration desk, where you could register yourself before torching a car, naming your ethnic background and religion

 

[Elrohir]

maybe they should put up a registration desk, where you could register yourself before torching a car, naming your ethnic background and religion

Considering the ineptitude of the French government so far, I wouldn't be all that suprised if they tried that. Maybe with some brochures nearby on some sensitivity classes being held nearby.