PAX Conference analysis thread

[Oridan]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/josiahkeen/8584221848/sizes/z/in/set-72157633069474841/

But look at this screenshot of Pope's leader art. Just beautiful. A shame he isn't in

Yeah, he looks amazing. Wish they didn't have to remove him.

 

[mo123567]

I get what you're saying, but the problem when you focus on the classic historical civilizations is that you get an overload of European and Middle Eastern choices. If you want geographic diversity of civilizations, you have to be choosy about Middle East/European leaders and liberal about other locales. On top of that, Civ 5 is steering away from multiple leaders of the same civilization, so China and Japan get one choice despite their long and storied histories.

I agree that history, thus far, has been middle eastern, asian, and european centric. I personally do not play on an Earth map and do not care about covering civs just for the sake of their geographic location. Sumeria was arguably the first civilization ever. Written language likely originated there and it was around for thousands of years. That, to me, makes them a much more valid choice for a civ than a modern civ that has been around for less than 200 years (unless that civ has achieved something very significant).

On the other hand, that is just my opinion on what I want to see in a civ game and some people may be sick of seeing civs in the same area, some even sharing city names.

 

[shocky27]

Why keep insisting on a North American Native civ for God's sake! What about the Tupi-Guarani, the Caribs, the Mapuche? Stop adding cultures from North America as if they were superior to the ones we had in South America!

I wouldn't mind any of those, but the fact is they have openly stated they wanted the Pueblo, and Sioux have been in a previous game. They already announced a South American civ this expansion, so really, it is very high odds that a North American Native Civ will be added. Mapuche would be great imo, but that is not what I believe they will put into the game.

 

[Gucumatz]

Why keep insisting on a North American Native civ for God's sake! What about the Tupi-Guarani, the Caribs, the Mapuche? Stop adding cultures from North America as if they were superior to the ones we had in South America!

Look you will find me a proponent of many other Native American civs. Its just unlikely for one from South America to be added in my opinion. Depending on how archaeology goes I could see a civ like the Chachapoya making it in 15 years. But as of now, there is little name recognition in the US.

And its not like the Pueblo/Anasazi/Hohokam weren't a valid civ or an unimportant civ

They were huge traders, trading goods from all across N. America to Mesoamerica. They actually built somewhat of a tributary empire, hundreds of miles of canals, their most populated city reached about 40,000 people, had complex architecture, etc.

And if you watched the stream, you may have learned that their culture existed for nearly a thousand years, resisting many invaders. Their defeat of the Spaniards in the 1600s is one of the most important/decisive defeats [And possibly the most decisive] ever inflicted on a European empire by Native Americans. The Spanish were forced to scrap their plans of settling the internal US and only 2,000 survivors were left of the Spanish colony. The Pueblo were also the Native Americans that brought horses to the Americas ironically. After their defeat of the Spaniards they captured thousands of horses, a lot of which they let run wild and a lot of which they traded to other Native American Civs (like the Apache)

 

[quidpronihilo]

Look you will find me a proponent of many other Native American civs. Its just unlikely for one from South America to be added in my opinion. Depending on how archaeology goes I could see a civ like the Chachapoya making it in 15 years. But as of now, there is little name recognition in the US.

And its not like the Pueblo/Anasazi/Hohokam weren't a valid civ or an unimportant civ

They were huge traders, trading goods from all across N. America to Mesoamerica. They actually built somewhat of a tributary empire, hundreds of miles of canals, their most populated city reached about 40,000 people, had complex architecture, etc.

And if you watched the stream, you may have learned that their culture existed for nearly a thousand years, resisting many invaders. Their defeat of the Spaniards in the 1600s is one of the most important/decisive defeats [And possibly the most decisive] ever inflicted on a European empire by Native Americans. The Spanish were forced to scrap their plans of settling the internal US and only 2,000 survivors were left of the Spanish colony. The Pueblo were also the Native Americans that brought horses to the Americas ironically. After their defeat of the Spaniards they captured thousands of horses, a lot of which they let run wild and a lot of which they traded to other Native American Civs (like the Apache)

Here are some facts you probably don't know (and I don't blame you for not knowing) regarding The Mapuche:

The Mapuche fought against the Inca and Spanish invaders for over 300 years. The Mapuche repelled the Spanish after their initial conquests in the late 16th century so effectively that there were areas to which Europeans did not return until late in the 19th century.

A Spaniard, Alonso de Ercilla, wrote in 1569 the only epic poem dedicated to a Native American culture celebrating their bravery and courage, "La Araucana". It is considered the national epic of the Kingdom of Chile and one of the most important important works of the Spanish Golden Age.

The Mapuche still exist and keep fighting for their preservation. Apaches, Comanches and Navajos are almost extict and the ones that survived run casinos. The Mapuche still die on a daily basis fighting for over 500 years.

 

[Icaria909]

So a quick overview again:

1. Poland
2. Assyria
3. Brazil
4 Portugal (all but confirmed with Brazil)

I won't include the Zulu, because as we saw with the Pueblo, a more deserving civ could still be considered over another civ with more tradition that's been in previous civ games.

Just saying... prepare to be surprised about the 3 African Civs...

I doubt they will include Portugal. CiV seems to be moving away from more European civilizations and branching out to new areas. If Brazil is already included, I think we can assume Portugal will not appear, unless in some mod.

From recollection, 'Anasazi' is considered an offensive term to Pueblo Native Americans (not altogether surprisingly, since it's a Navajo word that translates as "ancient enemy" according to Wikipedia) - if they're not going to allow Pope because of native objections, they aren't going to allow the Anasazi. It's also unlikely there are any known Anasazi leaders.

I'm not surprised that Pope would not be included as a leader for the Pueblo civ (if they are to be included), considering the religious nature of the Pueblo Revolt. However, I am not sure what other leaders they would choose to use. Most Pueblo leaders we know anything about come after the initial contact with Spanish in the seventeenth century and Pueblo politics as dominated by their interaction with the Spanish. The particular leaders that arose to meet those challenges are complex figures who still hold complicated legacies to the Pueblo people today. Maybe they'll pick a mythological character instead.

Or maybe they'll go with the Cherokee!

 

[otaman1]

At first I thought the Peublos were a pre-production of Civ V. Not the expansion (cause I read it wrong). Shame. Hopefully they replace the Peublos with another awesome Native civ

 

[PhilBowles]

I would say Vietnam for some odd reason. It fits the time period they are dealing with.
Although, Serbia would be nice too. Maybe Phoenicia will be added due to the new trade routes.

I'd rather have one of the historical Vietnamese cultures such as the Champa, however modern Vietnam would fit well with 'ideologies' being one of the expansion themes and would limit overlap with Siam (while the Khmer or Pagan would represent a similar time period) and Indonesia. I think there are realistic prospects to get two SE Asian civs - it looks from what we've seen so far that they're trying to expand to all-new civs and ones from areas not otherwise explored in Civ games (Poland, Brazil and Assyria are all new to the series, and the Pueblo would have been, and Poland and Brazil fall within well-known 'gaps' in civ coverage).

 

[cybrxkhan]

Someone suggested on the other thread - similar to how Sofia increases the chances of Hungary/Vietnam/Serbia, having Ur as what I think was a mercantile city-state increases the chances of Portugal.

 

[Inhalaattori]

I think Cherokee are strong candidate after Pueblo were scrapped.

 

[shocky27]

List of Maritime City states:

Cape Town
Jakarta
Lisbon
Manila
Mombasa
Quebec City
Ragusa
Rio de Janeiro
Sydney
Venice

So with Ur being maritime... this increases the chances for many potential civs, but imo, most likely Portugal and Majaphit

 

[CivCube]

So now the Pueblo are the Firefly of Civilization. What could have been...!

 

[turingmachine]

Someone suggested on the other thread - similar to how Sofia increases the chances of Hungary/Vietnam/Serbia, having Ur as what I think was a mercantile city-state increases the chances of Portugal.

List of Maritime City states:

Cape Town
Jakarta
Lisbon
Manila
Mombasa
Quebec City
Ragusa
Rio de Janeiro
Sydney
Venice

So with Ur being maritime... this increases the chances for many potential civs, but imo, most likely Portugal and Majaphit

Not necessarily, Ur could have just been the replacement or Rio which had to be taken out.

 

[King William I]

List of Maritime City states:

Cape Town
Jakarta
Lisbon
Manila
Mombasa
Quebec City
Ragusa
Rio de Janeiro
Sydney
Venice

So with Ur being maritime... this increases the chances for many potential civs, but imo, most likely Portugal and Majaphit

Ur is most likely replacing Rio de Janeiro

Ninja'd

 

[Gucumatz]

Here are some facts you probably don't know (and I don't blame you for not knowing) regarding The Mapuche:

The Mapuche fought against the Inca and Spanish invaders for over 300 years. The Mapuche repelled the Spanish after their initial conquests in the late 16th century so effectively that there were areas to which Europeans did not return until late in the 19th century.

A Spaniard, Alonso de Ercilla, wrote in 1569 the only epic poem dedicated to a Native American culture celebrating their bravery and courage, "La Araucana". It is considered the national epic of the Kingdom of Chile and one of the most important important works of the Spanish Golden Age.

The Mapuche still exist and keep fighting for their preservation. Apaches, Comanches and Navajos are almost extict and the ones that survived run casinos. The Mapuche still die on a daily basis fighting for over 500 years.

Oh I am familiar with the Mapuche. But there is a reason they are called the Sioux of the South. Considering what they are known for (fighting for their territory, in a territory that the Spanish mostly had surrounded anyways) and that there are North American civs known primarily for their fighting prowess, they have not shot of getting in.

And 700,000 people sure is nothing to scoff at of course. But you can't honestly make an argument on "their people have almost been wiped out by invaders entirely, they don't deserve to be in civ". Its offensive first of all and just silly second

 

[shocky27]

So out in the screenshot, Sofia is a militaristic city state with a green color.

the only other militaristic city state that is green colored is Belgrade that i am aware of..

This could signal a Yugoslavia or Serbian civ.

 

[masterofroflnes]

i made a video rounding up all the stuff from the pax livestream http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx90Fh9rfOY

 

[PhilBowles]

Ho Chi Minh of Vietnam? Possible, but I doubt we get both Indonesia and Vietnam, so I'm still hoping Indonesia

Although it could be:

Vietnam
Brazil
Portugal
Assyria
Poland
Indonesia
Zulu
Kongo
Native American

This looks a fully plausible list, although nothing here (except for already-confirmed Assyria) is really a 'wild card' civ like the Huns or Sweden that no one was expecting. I can't say I'm especially enthused about the idea of a North American civ or see any real need for one - we already have one, not to mention tribal civs from other parts of the world that aren't substantially dissimilar in cultural elements that can be reflected in a Civ game. But it does seem likely there will be one.

Did you forgot Siam? Pretty sure they aren't going to add a other land from that region

Why wouldn't they? Asia was passed over altogether in Gods & Kings, yet this is the area of the planet with some of the most developed urban societies outside Europe (and East Asia has been covered as comprehensively as Western Europe), as well as a very well-documented history. They've had two civs just from Scandanavia, after all, and mainland Southeast Asia is a far larger region. Every one of the area's modern countries lays claim to at least one notable historical civilisation; Vietnam hosted several, including the longest-lasting.

Unless they add Malaysia (which is not impossible, to really throw things off), it's also the only one of the mainland Southeast Asian countries (other than Thailand, already in the game) that's of any modern political relevance; Vietnam was geopolitically important during the Cold War, and has one of the world's fastest-growing economies today.

We're speculating that VIetnam might be in because Sofia replaced another militaristic city-state, and out of the current militaristic city-states, Hungary, Serbia, and Vietnam would make the most plausible civs.

I'm not convinced by that reasoning. There was at least one other militaristic state in the game's original release: Tyre. That's still a CS, but it's a different type of CS. While they haven't mentioned anything about adding new CS types this time around, if a CS was made obsolete it may well be that an existing militaristic CS name was transferred to another CS class to leave the vacancy filled by Sofia. We already know there will be vacancies for Rio and Warsaw at the very least.

 

[Carazycool]

i made a video rounding up all the stuff from the pax livestream http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx90Fh9rfOY

It looks to me like it's just a video of you playing some random game of civ while talking about the pax Firaxis panel. You are surely the master of waffles.

 

[masterofroflnes]

It looks to me like it's just a video of you playing some random game of civ while talking about the pax Firaxis panel. You are surely the master of waffles.

you expected something different?