Pests

[platyping]

Set the Weight to -2 so that it will never trigger automatically.
Use python to trigger it manually if conditions met just like Partisans.

With this, you can then vary the chance to trigger.

 

[Yudishtira]

How can Pigeons be replaced by Falconry School when it is Renaissance and they are late Industrial?

Anyway, I strongly suggest the Falconry School should only counteract some/most of their effects, not replace them. I mean really that's a bit silly - some of them will surely survive a new predator. To wipe them out/force them all to leave, the falcons would have to be heaps more dangerous/unhealthy and annoying than the pigeons ever were!

 

[Romoltov]

Maybe even if they aren't completely obliterated, they're kept under control, so they don't affect population mood/health significally.

 

[Faustmouse]

True, if a few pidgeons survive they aren't a pest anymore.

I'd be happy if there were more buildings that replace / counter other pests as well. You can use insecticides to get rid of some for example.

Right now Pests are just.... there at some point. And you can't really do something against them except avoid city grow over size 3/4/5/6/7... or avoiding their prereq techs as long as possible (both solutions are absolutely stupid )
There is not much strategy behind it.

 

[Yudishtira]

True, if a few pidgeons survive they aren't a pest anymore.

I'd be happy if there were more buildings that replace / counter other pests as well. You can use insecticides to get rid of some for example.

Right now Pests are just.... there at some point. And you can't really do something against them except avoid city grow over size 3/4/5/6/7... or avoiding their prereq techs as long as possible (both solutions are absolutely stupid )
There is not much strategy behind it.

Pests are just there - that's why they're called pests. You need a very good reason to deviate from realism for the sake of gameplay imo.

By all means have some future techs to get rid of them, but this is a Renaissance building that gets rid of them - totally - centuries before they appear!

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'd much prefer to see pests become a layered effect with growing effects as infestations grow worse and so on. But this isn't a realm I'm prepared to work on until I get to the more advanced disease stuff.

 

[Faustmouse]

Pests are just there - that's why they're called pests. You need a very good reason to deviate from realism for the sake of gameplay imo.

By all means have some future techs to get rid of them, but this is a Renaissance building that gets rid of them - totally - centuries before they appear!

They don't get rid of them; they prevent them. And why only future techs? You can get rid off / prevent some pests very good by now.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I added 5 new Pests ...

- Wasps
- Ants
- Aphids
- Bed Bugs
- Slugs

 

[Necratoid]

The thing about pigeons it people eat them. I believe its called squab. Sometime after the industrial revolution gets going (late industrial apparently) eating them fell out of favor in more developed countries. This means the reason pigeons become an issue is that the populous stops eating them and start feeding them. Which means the population sky rockets and they are no longer seen as free food.

This likely means pigeons should pop up earlier and make food instead of unhappy. Its only after the populous stops eating them that the food boost is replaced with unhappiness.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The thing about pigeons it people eat them. I believe its called squab. Sometime after the industrial revolution gets going (late industrial apparently) eating them fell out of favor in more developed countries. This means the reason pigeons become an issue is that the populous stops eating them and start feeding them. Which means the population sky rockets and they are no longer seen as free food.

This likely means pigeons should pop up earlier and make food instead of unhappy. Its only after the populous stops eating them that the food boost is replaced with unhappiness.

If they are food then they are not pests. That's why they were moved to Civil Engineering tech. And before that you can manually build a Pigeon Coop.

 

[Yudishtira]

If they are food then they are not pests. That's why they were moved to Civil Engineering tech. And before that you can manually build a Pigeon Coop.

There is no advance or even advantage involved in ceasing to eat pigeon. Many (not by any means all) civs have made this decision to turn them from food into pests. In game terms it should be an ordinance. I don't know why they did it, (just as I don't know why anyone would ban prostitution in-game).

Bottom line is, the player should be given a choice, rather than have it happen at a mandatory tech. Of course, there would need to be some benefit for it, otherwise no-one will voluntarily increase pests and decrease food.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It's likely we figured out pigeons are akin to rats with wings as far as their tendency to spread disease is concerned. Once people started realizing wild pigeons were likely to make them sick they probably stopped eating them with any regularity.

 

[Yudishtira]

It's likely we figured out pigeons are akin to rats with wings as far as their tendency to spread disease is concerned. Once people started realizing wild pigeons were likely to make them sick they probably stopped eating them with any regularity.

And we think Mind Control techs are not here yet.

With the greatest of respect, this is the reflex response we are conditioned to give on this matter, but it does not bear scrutiny.

1. Rats spread disease when alive. Once they are dead they are a disposal problem like any other, except that they are edible and even nutritious if properly prepared and cooked. In short, dead rats/pigeons are more likely to cause disease if they are not eaten!

2. Improperly prepared agribusiness/supermarket chicken has often been the cause of life-threatening disease outbreaks. Pigeon - including wild pigeon - is at least as safe as the chicken that most of us eat without a second thought.

3. All of the problems with pigeons that spawned the phrase "rats with wings" are due to the pigeon population explosion caused by not killing/eating them.

In game terms, I repeat my call for the conversion of pigeons from food into pest to be optional, by way of an ordinance. Since irl this was done to protect agribusiness in general, and the chicken industry in particular, I don't mind if the ordinance gives bonuses to livestock and/or food processing buildings...

 

[Arkenor]

It's likely we figured out pigeons are akin to rats with wings as far as their tendency to spread disease is concerned. Once people started realizing wild pigeons were likely to make them sick they probably stopped eating them with any regularity.

The feral pigeons some people think of as air rats are quite a new development. They are the descendants from escaped domesticated pigeons from the 1600s onwards. As such they are the product of intensive cross-breeding to encourage certain traits, one of which was unfortunately to be fearless of humans.

In early eras pigeons were no more likely to be carrying disease than any other bird. And even today, there's still 309 other species of pigeon and dove which are perfectly well behaved.

 

[LumenAngel]

Anyway, I strongly suggest the Falconry School should only counteract some/most of their effects, not replace them. I mean really that's a bit silly - some of them will surely survive a new predator. To wipe them out/force them all to leave, the falcons would have to be heaps more dangerous/unhealthy and annoying than the pigeons ever were!

A building is not obsolete when he doesn't exist anymore, but when ihis effect are meaningless.
There are still toymaker or candlemaker or falconery today. But ig, these building are obsolete because their effects are quite weak, far too weak to have an impact.
it can be same thing with Pests. Some ressourc/tech/building can obsolete/replace them. That won't mean there will be no post. Just that they are under control.

Today, in game, even a nuclear war for centuries will not trigger as unhappiness that all these pests, and this is not realism.

 

[Necratoid]

The reason people stopped eating pigeons is marketing. Specifically, catching or worse raising pigeons is effort. Authorities tend not to like random ranged weapons fire in their cities. Pigeons are fairly passive, but its takes effort to kill clean and cook them. City folk like to subcontract that kind of stuff. That is why the food service industry pops up.

See all that time hunting and cleaning the meat is time they could spend earning more disposable income. They have better things to spend time on and with the need to hunting pigeons to survive gone... eating pigeons became socially frown upon.

To give an example of social engineering by stupid... consider the case of King Louis the 14th of France (one of the Louis' anyway). He wanted to watch his wife give birth so had her lay flat on a table. The nobles decided to copy this... then it caught on with the peasantry. Spreading all the while... flash forward to today and you have the 'modern' set up with the stirrups and the 5 or so people involved. Birth is given against gravity and causes large increases in complications, deaths, and the infamous pain issues. This is a fashion trend with a hideous body count.

Eating pigeons is considered socially beneath people. The disease factor is largely meaningless outside justification things to yourselves. The fleas on rats where often the plague spreaders. Even today poor areas eat rats, the poorer the most likely. Eating bugs is coming back into fashion.

The Pilgrims (Massachusetts settlers 1600s) documented the terror of being forced to eat giant, ultra creepy sea bugs to avoid starving. This fact horrified them. Today lobster is comically expensive. Tomatoes where once considered toxic waste as they are considered closely related to deadly nightshade. They called them 'love apples' and wrote tales of them being used in lovers suicide as the lethal poison.

Truth and social trends can be completely different things.

 

[Yudishtira]

The reason people stopped eating pigeons is marketing. Specifically, catching or worse raising pigeons is effort. Authorities tend not to like random ranged weapons fire in their cities. Pigeons are fairly passive, but its takes effort to kill clean and cook them. City folk like to subcontract that kind of stuff. That is why the food service industry pops up.

See all that time hunting and cleaning the meat is time they could spend earning more disposable income. They have better things to spend time on and with the need to hunting pigeons to survive gone... eating pigeons became socially frown upon.

Agree - that was one of my points. I still don't know why the marketers market the poultry they do while outlawing other kinds though. There was nothing stopping them setting up battery pigeon farms like they did for chickens and (to a lesser extent) turkeys...

(In Australia lately we have been having trouble with ibises in our cities... But I don't think we're supposed to eat them either...)

social engineering by stupid...

Well put...

Eating pigeons is considered socially beneath people.

Except that one of the reasons gourmets "flock"mischief to Hong Kong is precisely so they can eat pigeon...

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok one thing I never finished was all this Pests stuff. I plan on adding "Anti-Pest" buildings to combat the annoying Pest buildings. Some brainstorming ...

- Scarecrows (Ancient)
- Ladybug Box (Ancient)
- Rat Catcher (Medieval)
- Exterminator (Modern)
- Pest Control (Modern)

 

[Thunderbrd]

I wish there was a way to rank the infestation levels...

 

[Hydromancerx]

Hmm. Without a property for each that is kinda hard. Even if we had say multiple buildings. I think perhaps this should be kept more vague and generalized.