Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[D'Artagnan59]

I can take the save after discussion.

 

[Aabraxan]

D'Artagnan, glad to have you back. I no longer remember what order the roster was in, but Buce and I are both scrambling for time and I'd be glad for you to take the next turnset.

Yes, the Celts certainly did take a beating . . . Bad enough that I think it may be time to make peace with them and go after the Arabs. Right now, we've crippled the Celts, hobbled the Hittites, and decimated the Dutch (how's that for alliteration?). The Arabs are the only empire on our continent, aside from ourselves, who haven't taken a beating. I think it may be time to go after them before they get any more powerful.

The Arab iron down by Baghdad didn't look like it was roaded, but maybe I'm wrong.

I'd certainly agree that we need more settlers and more cities. I was going to put that in my end-of-turn notes, but didn't, for reasons I don't currently recall.

Why abandon Adana? Even if you starve it, I say keep it. It provides support for a unit, no matter what. Or, if it looks like the Celtic archer is about to attack, give it to the Dutch. If the Celts then want to attack it, fine. Let the Celts fight the Dutch, too.

Trebs: Yes, I've got some cities building trebs. But I had a reason, I promise. I figured we'd rather have trebs than cats, right? So our options were: (1) rush a barracks and upgrade in place (we don't have the gold for that); (2) take the cats back to the nearest barracks and upgrade (we don't have the gold for that, either); (3) continue with cats; or (4) build new trebs and disband the cats near the front lines to help speed up barracks there. I chose #4, but production decisions aren't permanent. That said, it may be wiser at this juncture to go ahead and pop some settlers out of those towns. We've got a lot of ground N of the Celts and E of the Arabs. Most of it's desert, but desert towns provide unit support, too.

The Yekaterinburg harbor: Maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but it looks like we're going to own our continent, and soon. The bottleneck that I consistently run into is not having enough galleys, and I'd like veteran galleys. I think we need to go ahead and give away Great Library and get some galleys out for exploration. The other continent has civs we can trade with. They have gold that is rightfully ours.

Hattusas -- With all due respect, I disagree. Let's get at least one pikeman in of Hattusas. Maybe switch to a barracks, but not a settler. I only say this because Hattusas houses the Pyramids. The Pyramids are an awesomely powerful wonder, and they're worth protecting. If we're going to go after the Arabs next, we really want to protect the Pyramids. I wold expect to attack from the Entremont area, so I don't want to have to push the entire stack north in order to protect Hattusas while we attack Gergovia. We've got some troops up there, but not enough for an offensive. And we have no cats up there. We need to either produce defense in Hattusas, or ship some in.

(OH, AND BY THE WAY, THERE'S AN ELITE SWORD IN THE STACK BY GERGOVIA).

 

[Salarakas]

The Arab iron down by Baghdad didn't look like it was roaded, but maybe I'm wrong.

The only "spoiler" info we get for free without having to update the map are enemy cities and where the resources are (e.g. if one of the iron resources depletes we'll automatically see if another one is found). They have definately roaded that tile as well as at least one of the two gems between the two towns (can't remember which).

Why abandon Adana? Even if you starve it, I say keep it. It provides support for a unit, no matter what. Or, if it looks like the Celtic archer is about to attack, give it to the Dutch.

Giving it to the Dutch can work although it might just as well autoraze when we capture it again. Just don't let the enemy capture/raze it. The people in our republic don't like stuff like that.

Trebs: Yes, I've got some cities building trebs. But I had a reason, I promise.

There's no need for trebuchets. Catapults remain powerful even against musketmen and we're not even facing any pikemen yet. Upgrading cats to trebuchets is not a big waste of money but I'd rather spend the money on research at this point.

The Yekaterinburg harbor: Maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but it looks like we're going to own our continent, and soon. The bottleneck that I consistently run into is not having enough galleys, and I'd like veteran galleys. I think we need to go ahead and give away Great Library and get some galleys out for exploration. The other continent has civs we can trade with. They have gold that is rightfully ours.

If the other continent was easily reachable by galleys I think we would have had contact with the civs there already. We don't really have to look for them yet either as we won't be attacking them until we have cossacks and that's still a long way away. Like 60 turns or so at the earliest. There will be a time for a lot of galleys but right now we have to focus on conquering our own continent.

Hattusas -- With all due respect, I disagree. Let's get at least one pikeman in of Hattusas. Maybe switch to a barracks, but not a settler. I only say this because Hattusas houses the Pyramids. The Pyramids are an awesomely powerful wonder, and they're worth protecting. If we're going to go after the Arabs next, we really want to protect the Pyramids. I wold expect to attack from the Entremont area, so I don't want to have to push the entire stack north in order to protect Hattusas while we attack Gergovia. We've got some troops up there, but not enough for an offensive. And we have no cats up there. We need to either produce defense in Hattusas, or ship some in.

The Arabs have most likely already spent most of their excess units while fighting the Celts so we shouldn't be seeing any kind of a scary invasion after we declare. Building regular troops is just a waste of shields and begging for losses.

A 4/4 spearman fortified in a plains town with walls and covered by a catapult has a 69.0% chance of winning against a 4/4 sword attacking it. For a regular 3/3 pikeman the chance is 71.3%. If the attacking sword is only a regular the chances are 81.8% and 82.6%.

The town is very corrupt anyway and would finish the pikeman build long after we declare on the Arabs. The frontline will probably be a lot more south/SW by then.

 

[Bucephalus]

Nice turns, Aabraxan.

Now for the Arabs. I have to say that I agree with Sal regarding the 'Pike' build in Hattusas. You are giving the AI far too much respect; they will fold as quickly as all the others did. Sal is also correct when he say's that they will have exhausted their offensive units fighting the Celts; that is what the AI Generals do, they send everything that they have, and then each subsequent offensive unit built is sent piecemeal. And, far from needing to build Trebs, we will soon be in a position where we own our Continent, at which time we can think about disbanding units to save on unit support; the next time that we do any fighting, it will be with superior units on another Continent.

 

[Aabraxan]

The only "spoiler" info we get for free without having to update the map are enemy cities and where the resources are (e.g. if one of the iron resources depletes we'll automatically see if another one is found). They have definately roaded that tile as well as at least one of the two gems between the two towns (can't remember which).

OK. I thought that since the area wasn't (black) fogged, the view was current. Good to know and noted for future reference. Thank you, sir.

There's no need for trebuchets. Catapults remain powerful even against musketmen and we're not even facing any pikemen yet. Upgrading cats to trebuchets is not a big waste of money but I'd rather spend the money on research at this point.

Fair enough and I'd agree that I'd rather spend the gold on research than upgrading cats to trebs. I thought we'd want trebs.

The Arabs have most likely already spent most of their excess units while fighting the Celts so we shouldn't be seeing any kind of a scary invasion after we declare. Building regular troops is just a waste of shields and begging for losses.

Then let's move a veteran something in to Hattusas from somewhere. Even if the Arabs don't launch a scary invasion, I don't think we should leave it undefended. (Although there is one sword there now.)

And yeah, it was kinda fun watching the Celts and Arabs beat up on each other while I waited to take Entremont . . .

A 4/4 spearman fortified in a plains town with walls and covered by a catapult has a 69.0% chance of winning against a 4/4 sword attacking it. For a regular 3/3 pikeman the chance is 71.3%. If the attacking sword is only a regular the chances are 81.8% and 82.6%.

I have no clue how you remember (or even know) odds like this.

If the other continent was easily reachable by galleys I think we would have had contact with the civs there already. We don't really have to look for them yet either as we won't be attacking them until we have cossacks and that's still a long way away. Like 60 turns or so at the earliest. There will be a time for a lot of galleys but right now we have to focus on conquering our own continent.

Nice turns, Aabraxan.

Now for the Arabs. I have to say that I agree with Sal regarding the 'Pike' build in Hattusas. You are giving the AI far too much respect; they will fold as quickly as all the others did. Sal is also correct when he say's that they will have exhausted their offensive units fighting the Celts; that is what the AI Generals do, they send everything that they have, and then each subsequent offensive unit built is sent piecemeal. And, far from needing to build Trebs, we will soon be in a position where we own our Continent, at which time we can think about disbanding units to save on unit support; the next time that we do any fighting, it will be with superior units on another Continent.

OK, guys, here's where you two are puzzling me. My feeling from my turnset was that I had plenty of military to manhandle everyone on our continent. Perhaps I'm too worried about protecting Hattusas, but . . . If I'm overestimating the AI, why does everyone seem reluctant to build galleys and go look for the other continent? On the one hand, if they're way ahead of us in tech, don't we need to know that? On the other hand, if they're way behind us, don't we need to know that, too? Not that I have anything against fighting on another continent with superior units, but why wait to see what's out there? It could open up prime trading opportunities. Besides, I don't see any reason that we can't conquer our own continent and go exploring. We've got the military production capacity to do both.

 

[Phaedo]

I'll take a closer look tonight and weigh in. I didn't even get a chance to check out CivFanatics over the weekend.

@Aabra, From the brief look I've had, Good Set Aabra!. Especially coming off being on the bench for so long, it seems you did well.

I don't think anyone is against building galleys, we just haven't made it a priority. Basically, I think we went for expansion throughout our continent first and we did have a dinghy that dissappeared. Having said that, I totally argee with you that it is high time to send suicide missions in search of that other continent. We have our continent well in hand and we should find the other guys. I'm not so concerned that our galleys be vetran. These boats will be explorers and not fighters.

More details later

 

[Salarakas]

Then let's move a veteran something in to Hattusas from somewhere. Even if the Arabs don't launch a scary invasion, I don't think we should leave it undefended. (Although there is one sword there now.)

Agreed. The captured cities might flip as well so we need to have some units close by and not move all our units to the south. AC is good for this kind of purpose as it's fast and can cover a wide area. We'll advance pretty much with the speed of our catapults so we might as well use the swords and MI for capturing cities. Two or so swords and one AC should be enough to deal with anything the Arabs might send that way.

I thought we'd want trebs.

Trebs are great but they are not THAT much better than catapults and we already have plenty of those. Nothing wrong with trebs. Cannons, however, are a bit of a waste of shields as they are so expensive compared with trebs. I personally never build any cannons myself.

I have no clue how you remember (or even know) odds like this.

I used THIS program for calculating the odds. I used it heavily in my first AW games as there it's really essential to minimize losses. It's great for finding out stuff like "should I attack that sword next to my city covered by an archer or let it attack". One thing worth noticing is that if you'll lose a fight how expensive unit you're going to lose. E.g. if I attack with a sword and lose the fight I lose a 30 shield unit. If I let the enemy attack my city (with a spearman on top) and lose I lose a 20 shield unit. If the odds of winning are roughly the same it's of course better to let the enemy attack you.

 

[Phaedo]

After looking at the save, things look really good Aabra Some changes should be made (I think Sal covered them) but it's good. We do want to keep the heavy research going so we should keep the science slider up as much as possible. We also want to irrigate those corrupt towns when we are done with the core.

Our military is a little light but we are very mobile and we have a ton of cats (probably enough to take out 2 cities/ turn if they are in place). It looks like we need to consolofdate a bit so it will be a couple of turns before we declare on the Arabs but they definately seem to be the next vicitms . It would be nice if we could get all our enemies crowded on that SE peninsula but not a big deal. We do have to keep them around long enough for our GL gambit to pay off (we do get the tech that 2 civs we know know).

The next player should definately keep a close eye on that Aadana.

All that being said, I would reiterate my vote for some suicide runs. It would be very nice to get the other continent's tech too when we recapture the GL

I am looking forward to the continental invasion. I haven't done many without transports and it looks like we could be ready for an late MA/early IA invasion.

Oh yea, welcome back D'art

 

[Aabraxan]

It won't cause me any heartburn to switch the treb builds. If we need new towns more than we need trebs (& it sounds like we do), then go for it.

Hattusas -- we've got a stack sitting on a worker on the Arab border. I thought I'd road south to make travel from Hattusas to Entremont faster, but that's many, many worker turns that are unnecessary under the current plan. I'd say let the worker finish the tile he's on, put him to better use and move most of that stack (MIs, as I recall) back to Hattusas. There is also an AC monitoring the Arab border that could be in Hattusas in a turn or two. One exception: take that elite sword out of the stack and send him south. We need all the leader-hunters that we can get. That should cover Hattusas, I'd think.

Also, you may notice that I've got a couple of units spread out around Augustadorum and on the Arab border. I felt like our invasion force was strong enough that I could use those units as monitors and to pick off any stray units. IIRC, there are two AC, one of which should be sent to Hattusas, an MI and a sword. If the military seems light, we can reassign them, especially after Augustadorum falls.

In retrospect, I think Sal's right about reassigning the Adana and Kadesh citizens. No sense in keeping them at 2.

Harbors and galleys: Maybe it's not time for harbors and galleys yet, but we only hope that our first galleys are explorers and not fighters. There is a barb galley off of our northern coast . . . Also, I frequently wind up invading with knights (which I realize we won't have) and galleys in my solo games. It's slow, but it can be done. The other thing about harbors, which I mention more for my own education than for this game, is that they also increase the food production in the coastal square. In a largely uncorrupt town (like Yekaterinburg), that allows one citizen per coastal square to sit out over the ocean when all the land tiles are taken and generate gold without cutting into food support. So a city with three (2/0/2) coastal squares and a 1-upkeep generate an additional 7 gpt minus corruption, without affecting the city's food status. Granted, this doesn't answer the question of whether Yekaterinburg needs a harbor now (I can't remember what its population situation is, but it is something that I use in my solo games. Is this a good idea? Or am I missing something in my reckoning?

A final note on galleys. First, I think we need a couple to get out and map out the contours of our own continent. I'd really like to know how much land is between us and the far seas. Then we can begin looking for the other continent.

And I did NOT give away the Great Library. That will need to be taken care of.

 

[Aabraxan]

Salarakas commented earlier that we don't need any wonders at the moment in reference to the prebuild I started in St. Pete's. Has anyone given any thought to what Great Wonders we do want? Just a thought here, but we've got an empty army standing around and we're beelining Military Tradition. Anybody want the Military Academy? St. Pete's could probably go ahead and get its library or market (or maybe both) and still get a great start on it. We'd have to go ahead and use the army for something, but then we could build armies without leaders . . .

 

[Phaedo]

Oh don't get me wrong, harbours are great! It's just a question of timing. The thing is, we will have to do suicide runs to reach the other continent (otherwise they would have found us by now). Do you really want to do that with knights on board? I think we are waiting for magnetism for an invasion. That means we are a long way off before we send ships across the ocean. We do want to find that other continent though as it will both let us know what we are dealing with and take best advntage of our GL gambit (it may even let us properly clear out our continent).

As for wonders, I'm not sure what's open but I think it is a valid question. Mike's Workshop could be useful for a cash-strapped nation like ourself (although it's not the best value in the world). Sistines's and AoW are always great. Actually, on second thought, the AoW only gives us raxes on the same continent right? We don't need it. the military acedemy would be nice but i'm not sure it's necessary at this point.

I guess waiting for a musket to put in there would take too long eh? Well, if we decide to load just one unit in, let's at least make it an Elite AC that has already produced a leader for movement. I wonder if we really need it now though.

 

[Aabraxan]

The thing is, we will have to do suicide runs to reach the other continent (otherwise they would have found us by now). Do you really want to do that with knights on board?

No, and I was not suggesting knight-laden suicide runs. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Suicide galleys should be empty. But I do think it's time for some oceanic exploration. The comment about invading with knights is separate from the suicide galley question.

That said, maybe it's best to wait for the harbor at Y-town. I'd like our galleys to survive battles, but vet status doesn't do a thing for surviving deep water.

As for wonders, I'm not sure what's open but I think it is a valid question. Mike's Workshop could be useful for a cash-strapped nation like ourself (although it's not the best value in the world). Sistines's and AoW are always great. Actually, on second thought, the AoW only gives us raxes on the same continent right? We don't need it. the military acedemy would be nice but i'm not sure it's necessary at this point.

Yes, Sun Tzu's (that is what you mean by AoW, right?) only gives you raxes on one continent, so I don't think it will be necessary. I think I'd rather capture it on the other continent, given my 'druthers. Mike's Workshop is always nice. The Sistine Chapel (which I've admittedly never built) only looks effective if we've built cathedrals (which I also admittedly never build). The Military Academy would allow us to build armies without leaders, though. To me, that seems huge. Off the top of my head, I don't know when, if ever, the MA becomes obsolete, though. We can't be guaranteed any more leaders in this game. The MA would guarantee us armies, though. The downside is that I don't think we'd want to use St. Pete's for anything but armies, assuming that we built the MA there. Were this my solo game, I'd load that empty army with MI, go kill something, then prep to build the Military Academy. If I got the MA, St. Pete's would do nothing but crank out armies, to be loaded with units from other core towns.

 

[Phaedo]

Yea, I meant Sun Tzu's . Truthfully, I'm not too worried about wonders at this point. The military academy is a small wonder so we could build it whenever we want. We need military tradition for cossacks anyway. I'm elated that we have the pyramids and I think the Arabs have the hanging gardens too right? Personally I love Bill's Theatre but that is quite a while off too and not necessary (it's wouldn't be overly effective with CxxC as well). I guess I don't see a need for any great wonders at this point, so there wouldn't be a need for a pre-build yet either.

I think your army strategy is a good one. It will just be some time before we need to do this. There are definately benefits for that army win. If we are going to load in one unit just for the win, I don't think it necessarily needs to be an overly strong unit as it ought to be attacking a redlined foe. The AC Lenin can't make any more leaders, and is elite. It is also a 2-move unit so the army would have greater movement than a MI, making it a good choice for that purpose. A pike army wouldn't be bad either as it wouldn't get attacked in the open for quite a while (I think until the IA ,if I understood that army discussion correctly a while back). The thing is, any unit will slow down cossacks we put in an army with them so either we wait, or we think up some other army strategy. An AC would slow the cossack army down less, but still slow it down. An MI army would be great for clearing out the continent (but not really necessary and it won't be overly useful once we get to the other continent). I guess I'm curious about how effective a purely defensive army would be for pilliaging so I'd go for that myself. It would be more for curiosity's sake rather than strong strategy (the same reason for my interest in becoming commie)

All that being said, I whole-heartedly agree that is is time to send our ships into the breat beyone

 

[Aabraxan]

I've been thinking about this. For some reason, I was thinking that we needed a victorious army to build the Military Academy. Is that right? Or am I thinking of the Heroic Epic? I'm almost certain that the HE requires a victorious army but am not sure about the MA.

At any rate, the other thing that came to mind is that an army at this point is only useful on this continent. We don't have the boats to transport an army. As always, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but we need a boat that will haul 4 units (galleons?) before we can move an army overseas, right? I say this because I had a recent game where I cleared my continent and had to leave two armies (one AC and one MI) sitting on the coast while my other military units went off an conquered a large island nearby. Talk about a waste. . .

I certainly don't understand the intricacies of armies, but I think mixing and matching one- and two-move units will definitely slow the army down.

 

[Salarakas]

The 3 small wonders related to armies are:

Heroic Epic - 200 shields. Increases the chances of getting leaders from elite unit wins. Requires a victorious army.

Military Academy - 400 shields, let's the city build armies. The strenght of all your armies also increases when you build this small wonder. Requires a victorious army.

The Pentagon - 400 shields. You can add a fourth unit into your armies. You must have at least 3 armies in the field to build it.


Building armies sounds nice but keep in mind that you first need a 400 shield small wonder and then need another 400 shields for actually building the first army. In other words an 800 shield investment for getting the first handbuild army out. That's a whole lot of shields for pre-factory times. Even if we maxed the shield output in our best city (Moscow, 24(?) shields when size 12) it would still take 34 turns to get the first army built. I'd personally rather have 10 cossacks (or were they 90 shields?).

As always, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but we need a boat that will haul 4 units (galleons?) before we can move an army overseas, right?

Depends on how many units you load into the army. You can transport armies even with galleys if you wait until you drop them to the other continent before you load any (or more than one) unit into them. The same applies for caravels (max 2 units loaded) and galleons (max 3 units loaded). If you build the Pentagon and add a fourth unit into the army you need a transport to move it overseas.

I certainly don't understand the intricacies of armies, but I think mixing and matching one- and two-move units will definitely slow the army down.

Mixing units is never wise. Always fill an army with the same type of units. The only exception is when you build the Pentagon and can add a fourth unit... you might already be able to build an upgraded version of a unit (e.g. you have a knight army but can build cavalries already).

 

[Aabraxan]

The Pentagon - 400 shields. You can add a fourth unit into your armies. You must have at least 3 armies in the field to build it.

And, as I discovered in a solo game, you must have 3 armies in the field to complete it . . . That was an ugly discovery.

Building armies sounds nice but keep in mind that you first need a 400 shield small wonder and then need another 400 shields for actually building the first army. In other words an 800 shield investment for getting the first handbuild army out. That's a whole lot of shields for pre-factory times. Even if we maxed the shield output in our best city (Moscow, 24(?) shields when size 12) it would still take 34 turns to get the first army built. I'd personally rather have 10 cossacks (or were they 90 shields?).

A good point, regardless of whether cossacks cost 80 or 90.

Depends on how many units you load into the army. You can transport armies even with galleys if you wait until you drop them to the other continent before you load any (or more than one) unit into them. The same applies for caravels (max 2 units loaded) and galleons (max 3 units loaded). If you build the Pentagon and add a fourth unit into the army you need a transport to move it overseas.

This is what I was getting at, even if I didn't phrase it well. I was referring to loaded armies. The army itself takes one up one unit of space and each loaded unit takes up one space, right?

 

[Salarakas]

The army itself takes one up one unit of space and each loaded unit takes up one space, right?

Correct.


What's the status here Phaedo? Not much has happened in the past couple of weeks. It's nice if D'Art is back I guess but posting one sentence a month is not my kind of idea of a good SG participation...

 

[Phaedo]

I agree, although to be fair, Aabra just finished his turn three days ago.

As D'art hasn't been in it really at all, it would be nice if he posted a pre-flight so all is clear about what should happen the next set.

It's been three days since he posted so let's give him another 24 hours to post a list of goals to be accomplished in the next set. Of course he is more than welcome to ask for advice or input. If we don't hear form him. I guess it's yours Sal.

@D'art: If you are not too busy to take the set and give us a log (try not to lose it like you did in your SG), you are welcome to take the set after posting a pre-flight. If you are still tied up with work (it must be exam time, I know it is for my students ), no worries, just let us know when you are ready. I'd like to see you post a pre-flight before you take a set though, whenever that may be.

Are we all agreed that the GL needs to be gifted away, we should declare on the Arabs and we should get some boats running the uncharted waters looking for the new world in the next set?

 

[Bucephalus]

Are we all agreed that the GL needs to be gifted away, we should declare on the Arabs and we should get some boats running the uncharted waters looking for the new world in the next set?

I'm not sure that we've considered to whom we gift the GL.

 

[Bucephalus]

I'm not sure that we've considered to whom we gift the GL.

It has occured to me that it that the irony of gifting it to The Dutch would be almost poetic.