Poland

[Fragamemnon]

I had a game this weekend where I did what I feared would be totally broken (Poland tradition, go all-in for Great Library/Oracle), and as it turned out while it was strong it certainly didn't feel clearly stronger than most of the other Civs. The curbs to wonder spamming (increased hammer costs) really prevents crazy amount of wonder building even with a super strong cap to work with.

 

[wobuffet]

The curbs to wonder spamming (increased hammer costs) really prevents crazy amount of wonder building even with a super strong cap to work with.

Sorry, not in the know here: what're these increased hammer costs you speak of?

 

[Funak]

Sorry, not in the know here: what're these increased hammer costs you speak of?

Every wonder you build increases the cost of all other wonders by 5%(I think) and all other wonders of the same era as the one you build by an additional 10%(I think).

Not one hundred percent sure about the numbers but that's the general idea.

 

[wobuffet]

Every wonder you build increases the cost of all other wonders by 5%(I think) and all other wonders of the same era as the one you build by an additional 10%(I think).

Not one hundred percent sure about the numbers but that's the general idea.

Thanks! Interesting... World Wonders only, right?

 

[Funak]

Thanks! Interesting... World Wonders only, right?

Right

 

[Charos]

Every wonder you build increases the cost of all other wonders by 5%(I think) and all other wonders of the same era as the one you build by an additional 10%(I think).

Not one hundred percent sure about the numbers but that's the general idea.

Does that penalty kick in for all wonders built, or for all wonders owned?

If I build 1 wonder, and then capture a city with 2 more, will I have a penalty of 1, or 3?

 

[Funak]

Does that penalty kick in for all wonders built, or for all wonders owned?

If I build 1 wonder, and then capture a city with 2 more, will I have a penalty of 1, or 3?

I think it is built, but I'm not sure. It's designed as an anti-snowball for techs, but with the change to wonders and social policies it doesn't actually accomplish that much anymore.

 

[Funak]

Quite a bit of time has passed since the Poland UA change happened, and I figured I'd do a little bit of checking up on how people perceive them after the change.

From my experience the AI Poland usually does horribly now, he falls behind on policies and usually gets wiped out or at least crippled fairly early on.

 

[Gokudo01]

still overpower in any human's hands. I can't see how poland can not receive another round of nerf.

 

[Funak]

still overpower in any human's hands. I can't see how poland can not receive another round of nerf.

Is that so? How about a change instead? I mean clearly there is some major problem with how the UA works, if it's completely bonkers when players use it and the AI just falls flat on its face when playing it.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I've been thinking about Poland and Casimir (from a historical perspective).

Currently, the UA is immensely powerful and available from the start, whereas the UB and UU come quite late. Considering the UB is a replacement for the stables, it's use is quite limited and underwhelming vs. other UBs, because stables are rarely built, even though the UB is an great improvement vs. the stable. And the UU imho could come sooner and replacing the knight, considering Casimir reigned in the 1300s.

So my suggestion would be to nerf the UA and buff the UU and UB.

I'd rework the UA so it would reflect that Casimir was a great diplomat and strategist (military- and politics-wise) who greatly expanded Poland's territories and influences, that he ensured stability between the competing factions/classes within the Polish society, was considered a king of the people/poor, implemented many then-modern laws, protected the Jewish population, etc. So perhaps the UA could be a combination of 1.) less unhappiness not just from crime, but also all others (religious division - protected Jews; poverty - king of the poor; illiteracy - modern laws, created Academy of Krakow), 2.) diplomatic/political prowess (not sure how) and perhaps even 3.) military prowess (not sure how)

I'd change the UU so it would be a knight replacement.

I'd change the UB so it would be available in the medieval era of one of the buildings more commonly built&generally useful, not something specific like the stable. Considering he built over 50 castles, it could be a castle replacement. Considering he found the Academy of Krakow, it could be a university replacement or "Oxford's university" replacement. Or sth else.

 

[Funak]

I've been thinking about Poland and Casimir (from a historical perspective).

Currently, the UA is immensely powerful and available from the start, whereas the UB and UU come quite late. Considering the UB is a replacement for the stables, it's use is quite limited and underwhelming vs. other UBs, because stables are rarely built, even though the UB is an great improvement vs. the stable. And the UU imho could come sooner and replacing the knight, considering Casimir reigned in the 1300s.

So my suggestion would be to nerf the UA and buff the UU and UB.

I'd rework the UA so it would reflect that Casimir was a great diplomat and strategist (military- and politics-wise) who greatly expanded Poland's territories and influences, that he ensured stability between the competing factions/classes within the Polish society, was considered a king of the people/poor, implemented many then-modern laws, protected the Jewish population, etc. So perhaps the UA could be a combination of 1.) less unhappiness not just from crime, but also all others (religious division - protected Jews; poverty - king of the poor; illiteracy - modern laws, created Academy of Krakow), 2.) diplomatic/political prowess (not sure how) and perhaps even 3.) military prowess (not sure how)

I'd change the UU so it would be a knight replacement.

I'd change the UB so it would be available in the medieval era of one of the buildings more commonly built&generally useful, not something specific like the stable. Considering he built over 50 castles, it could be a castle replacement. Considering he found the Academy of Krakow, it could be a university replacement or "Oxford's university" replacement. Or sth else.

I think both the UU and the UB are fine really but to bring the discussion forward.
However the UU could probably use slightly more CS, just to keep in line with other UUs, I mean they are currently only like 5% stronger than a normal lancer (while in vanilla they were more than 10% stronger than the normal lancer), they also started with Shock 1 in vanilla, something that I'm guessing was lost along the lines.
Yeah I'm aware that vanilla lancers were pretty terrible, while VP lancers are monstrous but if you compare the numbers to for example the unique knight-replacements they are at almost 20% more CS than normal knights.

The UB is fairly weak, but it kinda kinda flavorful, promoting settling near pasture-resources and buffing mounted units, then again if you compare it to other military unique buildings the Ikanda, the Dojo and the Siege Foundry, those three all provides extra promotions instead of just experience, and I think most people would agree that this is a more fun solution. I'm not asking for some monster of a unique promotion like the ikanda or the dojo provides, but letting mounted units start with charge or something along those lines? Maybe some other promotion instead? This would replace the extra experience of course, and it would make the building less versatile.


I do think, however, that the UA is the beast that needs to be tackled. I disagree with your point that the UA is available from the start of the game, it requires you to research 16 techs before it does anything, if you research all the cheapest techs available you're still halfway through classical before you reach that number, the next time it triggers you're in renaissance era. Again this assumes you maximize the UA by always researching the cheapest tech, if you do any form of beelining you're probably in the industrial era when the UA procs a second time.
Yeah social policies are powerful, they are probably so powerful that over the course of the game, this UA probably averages out to being pretty decent, but is is fun? And why can't the Poland AI win games anymore?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

still overpower in any human's hands. I can't see how poland can not receive another round of nerf.

Meh, Denmark/Greece could do the very same thing much more effectively even pre-nerf with enough fighting, same with some others. Now those civs will just do the same things better, but with some effort needed in exchange. Same with Ramesses/Kamehameha. I don't find Poland a problem, there's much better civs now and there were better ones even pre-nerf. If Byzantium gets +1C per 2 followers as it's bonus belief, it can expect more policies than Poland too. In fact, almost anyone with +C anywhere can compare.

I've been thinking about Poland and Casimir (from a historical perspective).

Currently, the UA is immensely powerful and available from the start, whereas the UB and UU come quite late. Considering the UB is a replacement for the stables, it's use is quite limited and underwhelming vs. other UBs, because stables are rarely built, even though the UB is an great improvement vs. the stable. And the UU imho could come sooner and replacing the knight, considering Casimir reigned in the 1300s.

So my suggestion would be to nerf the UA and buff the UU and UB.

I'd rework the UA so it would reflect that Casimir was a great diplomat and strategist (military- and politics-wise) who greatly expanded Poland's territories and influences, that he ensured stability between the competing factions/classes within the Polish society, was considered a king of the people/poor, implemented many then-modern laws, protected the Jewish population, etc. So perhaps the UA could be a combination of 1.) less unhappiness not just from crime, but also all others (religious division - protected Jews; poverty - king of the poor; illiteracy - modern laws, created Academy of Krakow), 2.) diplomatic/political prowess (not sure how) and perhaps even 3.) military prowess (not sure how)

I'd change the UU so it would be a knight replacement.

I'd change the UB so it would be available in the medieval era of one of the buildings more commonly built&generally useful, not something specific like the stable. Considering he built over 50 castles, it could be a castle replacement. Considering he found the Academy of Krakow, it could be a university replacement or "Oxford's university" replacement. Or sth else.

I'm sorry, but your suggestion is not too good. Why introduce yet another Knight replacement when Hussar just fits way more in Renaissance when unique Lancers aren't a common sight? Sure, WHussar is a bad UU because it's unique trait is more annoying than it is useful, but Renaissance is where he should be. UB I could see changed, but Royal Stable works fine as is and I don't see the point.

I can think of something better.

From wood to stone/brick /whatever name

Units can't be bought but only invested in. Invested units cost no maintenance and start with a random accessible promotion. Adopting a SoPOL or starting a GA invests in all cities.

Fits Poland as the first part reflects the time before Poland's fall when nobility was too greedy to buy or pay units (so they only pay a bit) which would weaken Poland defensively, but what the army was was still good as it was true patriots. Investing in cities to build stuff faster fits Casimir as he "has found Poland wooden but left it made of brick". Very unique, no one else can only invest in units. Investing units of course should only cost 50%, but it's still bad because you can't instantly count on them if stuff happens and you need them, though they're stronger because a Horsie might get free Shock or Drill. Fitting.

UB - same, but +2 Culture because the UA is not as good. No +supply% unlike Stables (unless the supply change from current patch is removed) to further show nobility not really wanting to give anything for an army, instead +10 GAP points when mounted/armoured units kill.
UU - same, but at least 40 CS and the super charge actually deals more damage if someone can't retreat, I think that part either doesn't work or is so weak I can't feel it deal more damage

UU could get the buff regardless if any UA changes are made, it's a pretty bad one. Maybe among the worst.

 

[pandasnail]

Whenever I play Poland or get WHs thru other means, there's always a few times where if I make an attack I would normally make, it would leave my WH out too far. And there's even more times where it helps an AI unit retreat. When the unit is actually surrounded, its great, but the times you have to sit back with the unit make it a really weird UU to me.

 

[Funak]

I had an idea for a rework of the Polish UA a while back, before we got the currenty per tech thing. The tech thing by itself is pretty brilliant, as it allows easy re-balancing of the UA simply by changing the number of techs requires, but it just felt like more of the same to me, and I never really liked the old Polish UA that much. Yeah it was completely overpowered, that's for sure, but was it a fun kind of overpowered?


Anyways the base idea was giving them a percentage cost-reduction on all policies, kinda like the Eiffel tower does, and then have them receive flat yields or some kind of bonus every something happened. I couldn't decide what that something should be, but the alternatives I was thinking about were 'Entering a new era', 'Researching a tech' or 'Adopting a policy', yeah these are all events that are already rewarded by various different policies and beliefs, but honestly I think there is plenty of room for such an effect without overlapping (I mean the Spanish UA overlaps with Hero worship, and that's completely fine).

Anyways it's not even an idea, but it's a framework that I think something could be built from. Keeping the old idea of getting more policies, but taking a stab at the weirdness of getting policies without paying culture for them (also free policies in general feels incredibly powerful).

 

[Funak]

No thoughts on this?

 

[tu_79]

No thoughts on this?

People is busy trying beta.

 

[ElliotS]

I think part of their problem is that stables come too late. If stables were moved a tier or two earlier I think it would be hugely beneficial.

Secondly I also like the idea of taking out he forced retreat from WH. What if they could ignore ZoC instead? That would make them insanely powerful.

If those two things happened I don't think the UA would need to be touched. If it was I'd be in favor of 10% cheaper policies and gold = to 10% of policy cost whenever you adopt one. (Numbers could be played with a bit.)

 

[tu_79]

I like the theme of expanding like a middle empire and then develop fast.

So, for me a good bonus for the ducal stable could be faster building speed. Like an extra windmill. Or perhaps make windmills be stronger with the UA. Stables are rather expensive, so I wouldn't mind if it is available earlier. As they require horses to benefit from the faster mounted production, they don't impact game too much, so it can be a stronger ability.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Funak, I agree, if WHussars remain, I'd like to see them get a CS buff and an extra promotion, to bring them more on par with other (mounted) UUs. If we keep the UB as a replacement for stables (I agree with ElliotS, if it were available earlier it'd compensate at least a little bit for it being so specific), it certainly needs to be buffed and granting a promotion would be a start. I also like your idea of reworking the UA so that while it's easier for Poland to get social policies, they shouldn't be free. I'd like, though, to make this part of the UA a bit less strong and compensate that by adding an UA element that is more fun and more in line with Poland's military-diplomatic prowess at the time.

Enrico, agree to disagree on the knight vs. lancer replacement, but I agree that if the WHussars stay, the withdraw promotion ought to be reworked so that it won't be a disadvantage in certain situations like Pandasnail pointed out. I'm not sure about the propose UA change, I think it would require quite a bit of AI work to make use of it effectively?

Elliot, I think starting with ZoC ignore would make them too strong, I've played a lot as France and the musketeers are phenomenal in large part due to that.