Poland

[Enrico Swagolo]

Funak, I agree, if WHussars remain, I'd like to see them get a CS buff and an extra promotion, to bring them more on par with other (mounted) UUs. If we keep the UB as a replacement for stables (I agree with ElliotS, if it were available earlier it'd compensate at least a little bit for it being so specific), it certainly needs to be buffed and granting a promotion would be a start. I also like your idea of reworking the UA so that while it's easier for Poland to get social policies, they shouldn't be free. I'd like, though, to make this part of the UA a bit less strong and compensate that by adding an UA element that is more fun and more in line with Poland's military-diplomatic prowess at the time.

Enrico, agree to disagree on the knight vs. lancer replacement, but I agree that if the WHussars stay, the withdraw promotion ought to be reworked so that it won't be a disadvantage in certain situations like Pandasnail pointed out. I'm not sure about the propose UA change, I think it would require quite a bit of AI work to make use of it effectively?

Elliot, I think starting with ZoC ignore would make them too strong, I've played a lot as France and the musketeers are phenomenal in large part due to that.

I think withdraw promotion should always deal more damage, no matter if they retreat or not. And yeah, Winged Hussars do not belong in medieval historically and wouldn't even make sense in medieval gameplay wise as there's already 3 Civ unique knights and IIRC no lancers that aren't long since CS only.

My UA wouldn't really require any AI work I think, it can be made to also remove maintenance from invested buildings so even if AI is working on one when UA kicks in, they still gain more. That'd be a tiny bit bally, but nowhere near as much as China so I guess that'd be okay.

Also, what do you mean by "if WHussars remain"? They're the unit most associated with Poland and they also did the biggest cavalry charge in history. In addition, they're also the unit which doesn't require any bonus work on art, model, civilopedia text, etc because it is already in civ. Replacing them would be a pointless waste of time.

Anyway, if you guys consider other UBs, do remember they cannot duplicate. Still, it's pointless imho. What's the point of making another building (which'd require more art, more work/research on civilopedia) when there's no other unique stable? If Ducal Stables are bad just put more yields/features on them, allowing them to be built anywhere just like Tabyas can be despite being Stoneworks. A new building would be a lot of work for no gain.

I agree that ZoC ignoring is boring, Musketeers from the same era get the same benefit. Also, it discourages going Autocracy (horse and melee line gets the no-ZoC promo anyway) which seems like a bad idea on a civ that's meant to be versatile.

 

[ElliotS]

Elliot, I think starting with ZoC ignore would make them too strong, I've played a lot as France and the musketeers are phenomenal in large part due to that.

I think it might be, but the important part is that not THAT much later you can get lightning warfare and thus ignore ZoC on everything important. France also has it's lightning warfare promotions online by then.

Even all considered it might still be a little OP, but it's a late UU so it should be a bit more powerful.

@Enrico Swagolo Lightning Warfare is good enough that I'd still go Autocracy even if some of my units already have it, just like with France. (If I'm going for domination obviously.)

An alternative would be to start with Charge 1 and 42 CS, but that seems too expected.

 

[Funak]

I really don't think they are that bad off, bumping the CS up to 40 seems reasonable enough.They already have Formation 1, +1 movement and their charge-ability compared to a normal lancer.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think it might be, but the important part is that not THAT much later you can get lightning warfare and thus ignore ZoC on everything important. France also has it's lightning warfare promotions online by then.

Even all considered it might still be a little OP, but it's a late UU so it should be a bit more powerful.

@Enrico Swagolo Lightning Warfare is good enough that I'd still go Autocracy even if some of my units already have it, just like with France. (If I'm going for domination obviously.)

An alternative would be to start with Charge 1 and 42 CS, but that seems too expected.

Well yeah I agree, I always go Autocracy with France anyway because it just makes too much sense. The UI benefits the most (+3 Science each), it helps you beat enemies up the most, etc. Even that weird UA nerf they got (+25% Prod +50% Culture < 100% Culture, doubly so if you consider what the UI does) still wouldn't change my mind and make me not go Autocracy if I was playing Gerard Depardieu's Barbarically Brawny Baguettes.

I still think ZoC would be a boring and unneeded solution, too much of the same with Musketeers. I agree with @Funak that it needs a small touch and making the super big charge ability better by always making it deal more damage (if it deals any more damage if enemies can't retreat, I didn't notice a difference if they couldn't those few months ago).

 

[Funak]

I still think the UA needs some work however, it was never really very fun (at least not from my perspective) and now it feels kinda meh, a watered down version of the old one (which I'm not going to say was balanced, it was overpowered) with some crime-reduction slapped on for good measure. Crime-reduction is probably good, might even be great, but it's one of those 'invisible' bonuses that you don't really see in action, which makes them boring. Not to mention that this is a reduction towards a specific type of unhappiness (even if it is a really common one), one that people think they can counter by themselves, and for that reason don't really appreciate.
Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think people see the crime-reduction as a fun element, and it just feels like it was added as a filler because the other part of the UA was under-performing.


With this said, I'm not necessarily married to my own suggestion, but I think that's the best way to do a cultural UA (and let the UA feel familiar). But with Poland being Poland and Casimir being one of those national heroes credited with everything, one could probably craft any kind of UA from scratch and fit it into Poland.

 

[tu_79]

Upon Wikipedia, Casimir is known for:
- Reform the army (doesn't specify)
- Building efforts (castles mostly)
- Legal reform (balancing rights among nobles, clergy and townsfolk)
- Rights for jews, allowing them to settle.
- Successful matrimony diplomacy.
- Successful military campaigns (while not a military genie).
- Rights for not mandatory foreign military campaigns.
- Building and founding the University of Krakow.

Both reforms strike me as something policy related, so the extra policies are justified. Matrimony diplomacy is the same ability Austria has. Extra castles are nowhere, we have ducal stables instead. A building that can only be built every 3 cities with luck. It comes somewhat later, but this is a problem of games finishing too early (are games in new beta taking more turns to finish?)
Casimir protected the jews, but forced them to limit interest rates, so he could use some credit. Nobles were released of their obligation to pay for foreign wars. So there was credit, but the king had to pay himself for the wars. He fought and won frequently, but in small scale (no oversized army), so most of his economic efforts went to development. I cannot but think that this is better simulated by cheaper buildings. Extra hammers in ducal stables may do, since units are mostly bought by that time.
Even if matrimony diplomacy can't have the same mechanic as Austria or Mongolia, this was an important aspect of Poland expansion. Something that helps with CS alliances, like extra influence for gifting units could do.

To sum up:
- Extra policies
- Cheaper buildings
- Small CS bonus

Now, I know you dislike something so 'simple' as the windmill effect on ducal stables by the way it passed unnoticed. And Funak's idea of boredom: not needing to change the playstyle is booring. Well, Poland already needs to seek for horses. Gaining extra influence for gifting units can open an interesting strategy of empowering a bordering CS just before a DoW, so they do a bigger part of the fight.
Cheaper buildings, as is, may not be very fun. Unless you have to meet some conditions, as Swagolo's proposal. Perhaps Ducal Stables could give +2 hammers to defense buildings (so we prioritize them), or give something extra (culture?) for investing in buildings (so we miss gold to purchase units), or getting to a new era could instantly finish any building on production (not wonders), or simply an instant burst of hammers.
I guess gaining some culture for investing in buildings is the most balanced, since they others are clearly better for wide empires.

 

[Funak]

Now, I know you dislike something so 'simple' as the windmill effect on ducal stables by the way it passed unnoticed. And Funak's idea of boredom: not needing to change the playstyle is booring. Well, Poland already needs to seek for horses. Gaining extra influence for gifting units can open an interesting strategy of empowering a bordering CS just before a DoW, so they do a bigger part of the fight.
Cheaper buildings, as is, may not be very fun. Unless you have to meet some conditions, as Swagolo's proposal. Perhaps Ducal Stables could give +2 hammers to defense buildings (so we prioritize them), or give something extra (culture?) for investing in buildings (so we miss gold to purchase units), or getting to a new era could instantly finish any building on production (not wonders), or simply an instant burst of hammers.
I guess gaining some culture for investing in buildings is the most balanced, since they others are clearly better for wide empires.

Searching out horses isn't exactly a playstyle, it's something close to essential for anyone planning on war.

Anyways, Ducal stable as it works now provides over the normal stable:
+2 Production
+5% production when building mounted units
+1 production +3 gold on all pasture resources
+15 Experience for mounted melee units (actually thought this was all mounted units, but I'll trust the civpedia on matter)
+Ability to construct without access to pasture-resources (kinda relevant if you want to build your mounted units in a city without any pastures in range)

Analyzing this, the +2 production base is kinda low for a medieval era but then again the mission (from the same tech) gives +0, and they both provides yields outside of the base.
+5% production when building mounted melee units is kinda low (and from the wording on the civpedia the production-bonus for a normal stable seems to apply to all mounted units while the Ducal Stable only applies to mounted melee units, I'm not sure this is true however, but that's how it is worded), this is a very slim category of units affected, maybe slimmer than the siege-weapons affected by the siege foundry (and it adds a 50% bonus).
+1 production +3 gold on pasture resources is really nice, pasture resources are fairly common in most starts and this should definitely offset the somewhat low bonus-yields on the building itself.
+15 experience for mounted melee units, this is fairly relevant, 15 experience is an extra barracks, but again it just affects a very small percentage of your actual army and it does nothing for units built before the stables are constructed (which is kinda a slap to the face if you have strong well upgraded horsemen from an earlier war). With the changes G added a while back, all the other miltiary building replacements should add their bonuses even to previously trained units (I haven't actually tested this, but that's what the changelog said).

What I would propose as a change would be something along these lines.
+2 Production
+25% production when building mounted units (I would change the normal stable to 25% and then have this one double it, the normal stable isn't that impressive. I really think it should apply to ranged mounted units as well)
+1 production +3 gold on all pasture resources
+Ability to construct without access to pasture-resource
+All mounted melee units gains Charge 1, All mounted ranged units gains Snipers (not completely sold on which promotions, but these both feel like decent alternatives)


Yes, this would kinda lock the Ducal stable in as a miltiary building, and it would create synergy between the WH and the UB. I don't think this would necessarily mean the civ as a whole needs to be entirely geared towards conquest, but that would require a non-military UA.

 

[tu_79]

+25% production when building mounted units (I would change the normal stable to 25% and then have this one double it, the normal stable isn't that impressive. I really think it should apply to ranged mounted units as well)

Agree. Stables I don't care unless I have 3+ pastures.

All mounted melee units gains Charge 1, All mounted ranged units gains Snipers (not completely sold on which promotions, but these both feel like decent alternatives)

Charge is quite thematic, but didn't Winged Hussars have something along the lines? Also, it would be simpler if the promotion is the same for both mounted ranged and melee, but the only one that is shared is Medic.

Giving free promotions is getting quite common nowadays. I still prefer granting +2 hammer to defensive buildings (walls, castles).

As for the UA, getting culture for investing in buildings and influence for gifting units is the one I'm liking best. It will give more culture, not tourism, so in fact it replaces the extra policies, as long as you don't expend all your money buying units. By enforcing gifting units and allying those CS, it effectively makes it easier to live with fewer units.

 

[Funak]

Charge is quite thematic, but didn't Winged Hussars have something along the lines? Also, it would be simpler if the promotion is the same for both mounted ranged and melee, but the only one that is shared is Medic.

Giving free promotions is getting quite common nowadays. I still prefer granting +2 hammer to defensive buildings (walls, castles).

As for the UA, getting culture for investing in buildings and influence for gifting units is the one I'm liking best. It will give more culture, not tourism, so in fact it replaces the extra policies, as long as you don't expend all your money buying units. By enforcing gifting units and allying those CS, it effectively makes it easier to live with fewer units.

Winged hussars have Formation 1 (25% bonus vs mounted/armor units and 10% CS in open terrain) not Charge 1 (25% bonus vs wounded units and 10% CS in open terrain), unless I've got that part mistaken. They do however have the Heavy Charge, which is similar in name but has absolutely nothing to do with Charge 1.

And yeah, giving a free promotion is quite common to give free promotions, but it feels like a better alternative to just giving extra experience.
I'm not really a fan of just making the Ducal stable a production-building, it feels more like a military building to me, and I'm not really sure how to link a royal stable to getting production from defensive buildings.


As far as the gifting units UA thing, it feels kinda weird to me.

 

[Gazebo]

I feel like some of the ideas mentioned here are solutions looking for a problem. Poland still does fine and can really snowball off of the extra policies.

 

[tu_79]

I'm not really a fan of just making the Ducal stable a production-building, it feels more like a military building to me, and I'm not really sure how to link a royal stable to getting production from defensive buildings.

Because Casimir told their vassals: 'Listen, I'll build this beautiful ducal stables, but I want you to put some of your soldiers to work for the town when needed, ok?'

 

[Funak]

I feel like some of the ideas mentioned here are solutions looking for a problem. Poland still does fine and can really snowball off of the extra policies.

I've personally yet to see the Polish AI do anything other than falling flat on its face and getting eliminated, but you might very well be right. I still think that the Polish UA in its current form is really meh, with the Crime-reduction itself feeling pretty boring.

However, the unique unit is pretty clearly a bit undertuned compared to other unique units, and especially compared to how it was in vanilla (pretty sure that's the only UU that's actually gotten weaker compared to the unit it replaced in VP). And In my opinion the Ducal Stable in its current implementation just isn't that fun compared to the Ikanda, the Dojo and the Siege foundry (and even the Venetian shipyard), buildings that are fairly similar yet far more interesting.

 

[Gazebo]

I've personally yet to see the Polish AI do anything other than falling flat on its face and getting eliminated, but you might very well be right. I still think that the Polish UA in its current form is really meh, with the Crime-reduction itself feeling pretty boring.

However, the unique unit is pretty clearly a bit undertuned compared to other unique units, and especially compared to how it was in vanilla (pretty sure that's the only UU that's actually gotten weaker compared to the unit it replaced in VP). And In my opinion the Ducal Stable in its current implementation just isn't that fun compared to the Ikanda, the Dojo and the Siege foundry (and even the Venetian shipyard), buildings that are fairly similar yet far more interesting.

It is going to get the aforesuggested CS bump to 40. That should make it competitive.

The Ducal Stable is also getting 10% military unit cap increase, so a small bump there.Overall though I think that Poland's shtick is that they simply get to customize their civ a bit more than normal via free policies. That's the general theme, I don't see it as being too bad. No one else gets (theoretically) through policy branches as quickly.

 

[Funak]

The Ducal Stable is also getting 10% military unit cap increase, so a small bump there.Overall though I think that Poland's shtick is that they simply get to customize their civ a bit more than normal via free policies. That's the general theme, I don't see it as being too bad. No one else gets (theoretically) through policy branches as quickly.

I'm definitely not talking for everyone here, but while I can see strength in increased supply from the ducal stable, I definitely don't see that bonus as fun or interesting. Besides, from my experience unit-supply is only ever a problem for civs going extremely compact (like Venice seems to be close to unplayable now) or for a civ that doesn't build military infrastructure, both those doesn't seem to fit with Poland very much. I mean Poland have no bonuses for remaining compact (in fact the current UA heavility favors going wide, because going wide makes the free policies more expensive), and if Poland would neglect military infrastructure, they would definitely neglect the Ducal as well (basically being a really expensive barracks).

As for keeping the Polish UA cultural, that's definitely still possible even without relying this free policy mechanic.

 

[CrazyG]

I have to agree that the 10% supply cap increase certainly isn't going to turn any heads.

I like the free policy mechanic, I think its iconic to civ5 as part of Poland.

 

[Gazebo]

I have to agree that the 10% supply cap increase certainly isn't going to turn any heads.

I like the free policy mechanic, I think its iconic to civ5 as part of Poland.

I never said it was amazing, but it is technically a buff.

G

 

[Funak]

I never said it was amazing, but it is technically a buff.

The point wasn't to buff it (although honestly, it could certainly need it), the point was to make the building feel interesting, feel unique. And an extra 15 experience doesn't really do that, in fact that 15 extra experience doesn't even change the amount of promotions the unit starts with (unless you've neglected barracks I suppose), which is why I suggested letting units start with a promotion instead of the extra experience, you can definitely see the effect of a promotion, barracks or no barracks. And letting Polish mounted units start out with an extra promotion (once you've constructed the stable of course) would kinda put Poland up there with Huns and Mongols as a nation based around mounted combat, just like the Siege-foundry places the Ottomans in the same box as Sweden, civs with better siege-weapons.

I like the free policy mechanic, I think its iconic to civ5 as part of Poland.

It is. But free policies are weird, their value depending heavily on how the game is going. Some games the three or four free policies you pick up over the game are worth tens of thousands of culture, some games they are worth hundred of thousands, maybe millions of culture. It just feels way too unstable of an element to me. Also I never really liked the whole "Poland gets a free Oracle every era, balance lol" whine.
A third thing is that 'X number of techs' have to me kinda killed the spirit of the UA, researching 16 techs isn't an event, the way entering a new era with the giant gong going off and the guy that's not spock and not sean bean starting to talk is. Researching 16 techs is just like 'oh, I got a free policy, guess that tech-number was evenly divided by 16'. Even the Ethiopian UA, which I personally don't really like that much either, is based around events, Finishing a policy-tree, adopting a pantheon, founding a religion and so on, those are major event, maybe not in the same way that entering a new era is, but still it's something.

 

[CrazyG]

I will agree that the X number of techs isn't great. Maybe it could just alternate and give one every few eras? Like how Korea's does, though it risks being a little complex

 

[randomnub]

This has been one of the few changes I modded back to the original, and I didn't even play Poland yet, nor like the civ a lot generally speaking; the change just seemed wrong.

The UA is strong, but while the 16 techs might be balanced (didn't get to test it, trusting you on that), it is very anti climatic getting rewarded at what feels like random times in game. A big amount of culture every time an event happens could work if you feel the UA deserves a nerf, or focus on other parts of the kit?

 

[Blue Ghost]

One idea is a free policy every other era, starting at classical. It's weaker than the current version, but you'd get your first free policy sooner, which might make up for that.