Poland

[Wodhann]

The first turns in Civ are critically important; the UA that gives free social policies to start would be absurdly overpowered because of that--though if you wanted to play with this sort of idea, JFD's Cultural Diversity gives a few different civs free opener trees and this really highlights how much of an advantage a single free policy is on turn one, let alone three free ones.

So no, Poland isn't really equatable to three free starting policies.

The example was in response to your argument that just because social policies themselves are well-designed, therefore by osmosis so is Poland's UA.

Do you think that Zulu has a bad UA, too? It's essentially the same as Poland's. More free promotions for doing the same thing you'd normally do, yeah? Nevermind that getting these free policies and free promotions creates interesting scenarios that cannot happen normally.

I said this before, but war is naturally more dynamic and active so "passive" war buffs end up being more engaging (and thus much easier to design) than passive improvement/utility buffs. Not that Zulu's ability is that great, but this is the reason I don't mind it.

I also disagree with your implication that an empty civ would be unfun, as this sort of equates to criticism that the game itself is unfun. Civ and the CBP are fun, so a simple civ can also be fun.

Where did I say civs are supposed to "make" the game fun? I'm saying that civs are there to create depth and variability.

My point is not moot simply because you have a different point of view. Your opinions are not the center of the earth.

*Bangs head on table, while pointing to the post where I directly equated civs with classes, ealier in the thread (before you posted the race analogy), and said it's different from races*

(...)

Regarding learning to mod, I already have little time to play Civ 5, let alone to learn how to code to make new leaders. It's just a skill I don't have the luxury of allocating time towards.

make a friend and pair of with that person to make some mods.

Honestly, if I were to apply my vision in regards to leader design, it would pretty much need to take someone with DLL coding skills to do them. So not really possible.

Poland is fine. But you can have your own Poland with blackjack and hookers, and doing this would probably get you a lot of positive attention.

If we always settle for the "possibility" of a custom add-on, nothing will be changed on the CBP. Plus multiplayer is always a factor.

Implying repeatedly that other posters and modders here are stupid

I have never done that. If you think I'm being rude though, imagine having to constantly have to correct people's misconstruction of your arguments, again and again. It's like every single response is someone trying to deliberately miss the point of what I'm saying. Which is weird considering how solid and straightfoward my main point is.
I'm used to it, though. I've danced this dance quite a few times already (it's a curse, no matter how correct my english is and how to-the-point I am, people will still find a way to misunderstand my points).

 

[Sendaf]

I am currently playing with Poland for the first time and having a ton of fun with an aggressive play style, something I don't usually do.

If you only consider the UA then yes Poland seems pretty bland. However they have a decent unique mounted unit which synergizes well with the UB. Their UB is really powerful (if situational) as long as you have the necessary resources nearby. The possible weakness in the UB is balanced by the versatility offered in the UA.

I consider Poland at least semi-unique in play style because

1) I focus on settling near sheep and cows, how often do you do that?
2) I can keep up in the wonder race even if I don't focus on culture/policy requirement

My only complaint is the Hussars promotion, it is interesting but would be a lot better if I could decide which tile the unit moves to.

So I feel the Civ as a whole is Well-Designed even if the UA is bland or hard to balance it helps even out the UA and UB.

 

[Fragamemnon]

I think Poland when they pick up Oracle is potentially too good at wonder spamming since culture gates wonders (and not tech) in the games that I play. I don't think that is as much a problem with Poland though as the policy counts assigned to the wonders themselves, which in some places seem a bit too high.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think Poland when they pick up Oracle is potentially too good at wonder spamming since culture gates wonders (and not tech) in the games that I play. I don't think that is as much a problem with Poland though as the policy counts assigned to the wonders themselves, which in some places seem a bit too high.

Yeah, like 10 policies for Alhambra, definitely too high.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

Yeah, like 10 policies for Alhambra, definitely too high.

I definitely agree here. This wonder used to be very competitive, but now I seem to get it every time I play (I usually make culture top priority in all of my games). I'm cool with requiring policies for wonders, but many should be scaled back. You shouldn't have to be a cultural behemoth to build wonders; you simply shouldn't be an uncultured rustic.

 

[Finarvi]

I agree that Poland civ isn't really exciting. I'm Pole and played it only once.

But as it is not going to change then maybe lets add some flavour to it? There are many things that come to my mind when I think about Poland (casimir's expansion, hussary and battle of Vienna, "granary of Europe" in medieval era, first european country to ensure religious tolerance by law, first european constitution, never-ending insurections and so on) but I don't know which of them were enough to determine Poland's uniqueness.

The culture part is somewhat included, hussary and casimir too but what about adding to existing UA small feature: when razed, Polish cities produce more partisans. Maybe even a chance for civ insurection as long as civ is still in-game. Or maybe bonusses to vasal system? There is no civ currently that benefit from having vassals or being vassal. With new enchantments to vassals it could fit well.

Anyway, my idea was to put something tiny that will make Poland more unique but doesn't really enchance their power.

 

[JungleBucks]

I agree that Poland civ isn't really exciting. I'm Pole and played it only once.

But as it is not going to change then maybe lets add some flavour to it? There are many things that come to my mind when I think about Poland (casimir's expansion, hussary and battle of Vienna, "granary of Europe" in medieval era, first european country to ensure religious tolerance by law, first european constitution, never-ending insurections and so on) but I don't know which of them were enough to determine Poland's uniqueness.

The culture part is somewhat included, hussary and casimir too but what about adding to existing UA small feature: when razed, Polish cities produce more partisans. Maybe even a chance for civ insurection as long as civ is still in-game. Or maybe bonusses to vasal system? There is no civ currently that benefit from having vassals or being vassal. With new enchantments to vassals it could fit well.

Anyway, my idea was to put something tiny that will make Poland more unique but doesn't really enchance their power.

Poland's already one of the stronger civs in the game (pretty high tier in my book) Giving them additional bonuses, even tiny ones, could possibly tip them into the realm of OP, as they were in base Civ V. We'd need to tread lightly if we were to give them anything else, which honestly, I feel like they don't need. Their UA is short, sweet, and to the point (And also really dang good).

 

[Wodhann]

I had a sort of a weird idea, it doesn't fix the passiveness problem but makes poland a bit more specialized (and flavorful) while keeping the UA similar to the original:

Solidarity: When advancing to the next era, receive a free Social Policy from the Rationalism tree (despite of Era requirements). Social Policy and Technology acquisition penalty from number of cities increased by (insert balanced number here)%.​

The policy would be acquired on tree order, with adjacent ones picked randomly. If possible it would be best to let the player pick but I have no idea how that would be programmable.

The last part is to balance it out a bit. I feel like without that part it would be too good.

 

[Funak]

I had a sort of a weird idea, it doesn't fix the passiveness problem but makes poland a bit more specialized (and flavorful) while keeping the UA similar to the original:

Solidarity: When advancing to the next era, receive a free Social Policy from the Rationalism tree (despite of Era requirements). Social Policy and Technology acquisition penalty from number of cities increased by (insert balanced number here)%.​

The policy would be acquired on tree order, with adjacent ones picked randomly. If possible it would be best to let the player pick but I have no idea how that would be programmable.

The last part is to balance it out a bit. I feel like without that part it would be too good.

As this is technically a restriction and a limit on choice I'm going to be opposed to it.
It also have certain problems, like getting the rationalism opener from entering classical era allows you to freely pick policies in rationalism after that, kinda breaking the game as the rationalism tree is designed to be a lot more powerful than the ancient era trees.

 

[Wodhann]

As this is technically a restriction and a limit on choice I'm going to be opposed to it.
It also have certain problems, like getting the rationalism opener from entering classical era allows you to freely pick policies in rationalism after that, kinda breaking the game as the rationalism tree is designed to be a lot more powerful than the ancient era trees.

I haven't thought about the "letting you pick after the opener" thing. That would sort of break the UA, yes.

Honestly, my creativity is kind of numbed by the fact that people actually think the old UA is well designed. I don't have much to work with, so it leads me to have strange ideas.

 

[Funak]

Honestly, my creativity is kind of numbed by the fact that people actually think the old UA is well designed. I don't have much to work with, so it leads me to have strange ideas.

I can't really think of anything either. Was entertaining making a suggestion to make them do a 180 and get a full tourism kit just to make a joke about the cultural domination of polandball-comics, but it turned out to be too much work.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Come on guys, the UA is fine.
Don't try to change it for the sake of changing it.

Even if it is nothing special - that is a good thing. There need to be some "basic" civs against which more excentric ones can contrast.

 

[Wodhann]

Come on guys, the UA is fine.
Don't try to change it for the sake of changing it.

Even if it is nothing special - that is a good thing. There need to be some "basic" civs against which more excentric ones can contrast.

There are enough "basic" civs that have less lazy designs than this one.

Honestly, I'll be (reasonably) happy if it at least has more flavor to it. As is, it's as bland and generic as they come.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Aight. I fixed Poland.

Poland

UA
Can Into Space
The closer Poland gets to unlocking future tech, the more social policies they can unlock.

UU
Winged Horsey
Screws up the enemy so bad, omg

UB
Can Into Gold
Puts gold where it shouldn't have been, letting you build more winged horseys

 

[Funak]

Aight. I fixed Poland.

Poland

UA
Can Into Space
The closer Poland gets to unlocking future tech, the more social policies they can unlock.

UU
Winged Horsey
Screws up the enemy so bad, omg

UB
Can Into Gold
Puts gold where it shouldn't have been, letting you build more winged horseys

The secret to changing everything without changing anything

 

[Gothic_Empire]

The secret to changing everything without changing anything

I think we can safely assume that my exhaustive changes will be bundled in the next official release.

 

[Gazebo]

Aight. I fixed Poland.

Poland

UA
Can Into Space
The closer Poland gets to unlocking future tech, the more social policies they can unlock.

UU
Winged Horsey
Screws up the enemy so bad, omg

UB
Can Into Gold
Puts gold where it shouldn't have been, letting you build more winged horseys

Perfect.

G

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Aight. I fixed Poland.

Poland

UA
Can Into Space
The closer Poland gets to unlocking future tech, the more social policies they can unlock.

UU
Winged Horsey
Screws up the enemy so bad, omg

UB
Can Into Gold
Puts gold where it shouldn't have been, letting you build more winged horseys

Winged Horsey sounds a bit lame, sorry.
How about "Teh Roflstompers"?

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Winged Horsey sounds a bit lame, sorry.
How about "Teh Roflstompers"?

How about we compromise at Winged Roflstomper?

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Deal!