Poll for 2020 election

[Berzerker]

So instead you support the guy who's drastically increased the civilian death rate of the US military operations he's inherited, whose policies are more egregiously and cartoonishly racist than any postww2 President.

How many civilian deaths from George and Barack's excellent adventures? How do you even compare Trump to the architect's of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria? I wont be voting for Trump or Biden, but I dont blame Trump for inheriting their wars.

So, since you're taking about items on the ledger...do you think Trump's got more weight of sin, or Biden?

Not even close, Biden's drug wars and Iraq wont be matched by Trump. But who knows, Trump could still invade Iran and he could leave his own quagmire to the next President. It'll take something like that to get into Biden's ballpark.

 

[amadeus]

CHARTS TIME!
CHARTS TIME!
CHARTS TIME!
CHARTS TIME!
CHARTS TIME!
CHARTS TIME!
​

* it looks good on my computer!

Results so far:

Total votes counted: 44, includes anyone that voted for either Democrat, both Democrats, neither Democrats, or no Democrats at all. Excludes people who voted teapots. Sorry.

 

[Ironsided]

Unsurprisingly Bernie is more electable even on the boomer-haven that is CFC:OT.

 

[amadeus]

There has been a tendency towards the left on this forum for as long as I’ve been here, almost 19 years. Clinton, Obama, and Kerry probably would have won similar polls had I posted them then.

 

[Socrates99]

You'd have saved time by just posting 'Trump 2020'.

So transparent.

(Note to anyone who doubts that the above is just Trumpist propaganda:

If Biden gets the nom, then Bernie's going to back him against Trump. As will AOC and all the other left-wing democrats.

And they will do so because they are smart, decent people who actually believe in the goals they preach.

Do not listen to those who are attempting to poison the well. They're just Trump supporters in disguise.)

Whoa, no way. Anybody who's paid attention knows I'm not for Trump. I'm only pointing out why certain Democrats dont really deserve anyone's vote. Politics in the US is so backwards we shame the voters for not voting rather than the politicians who dont earn their votes. Biden doesn't inspire people and there are plenty of areas he could be more dangerous than Donny Tiny-hands. We know this because we've seen it before.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Whoa, no way. Anybody who's paid attention knows I'm not for Trump. I'm only pointing out why certain Democrats dont really deserve anyone's vote. Politics in the US is so backwards we shame the voters for not voting rather than the politicians who dont earn their votes. Biden doesn't inspire people and there are plenty of areas he could be more dangerous than Donny Tiny-hands. We know this because we've seen it before.

Not as dangerous as Trump when it comes to appointing Supreme Court Justices and when the 2 oldest (both in their 80s) are both on the more liberal side of the court i'd woory about that if I lived in the US.

 

[Zardnaar]

There has been a tendency towards the left on this forum for as long as I’ve been here, almost 19 years. Clinton, Obama, and Kerry probably would have won similar polls had I posted them then.

Been here 17 years. Even foreign right wingers don't buy into the US version of the GoP.

 

[Patine]

There has been a tendency towards the left on this forum for as long as I’ve been here, almost 19 years. Clinton, Obama, and Kerry probably would have won similar polls had I posted them then.

Considering, in American politics the Democratic electorate extends, ideologically into the centre-right part of it by a bit, and the Green Party has about 2-4% of left-wing voters, and the Libertarian and Constitution Parties hold about 5% together of voters, mostly right-leaning (with some left-leaning voters favouring the Libertarians, for some reasons), and, in 2016, a fair number who might have otherwise voted Democrat voted for Trump for purely economic and jobs-related reasons, ignoring his more inflammatory racial rhetoric (even though @Arwon, @Cloud_Strife, and a few others here swear up and down that this particularly voting is a pure and flagrant impossibility - that only bigot-priority voter could POSSIBLY vote for Trump), the fact is, the Democratic Party of the United States is not REALLY coterminous with the left-wing spectrum voters in their entirety, in the United States, exactly and solidly - although, it's close, it's not close enough to be conflating the terms like that ALL THE TIME.

 

[Patine]

Not as dangerous as Trump when it comes to appointing Supreme Court Justices and when the 2 oldest (both in their 80s) are both on the more liberal side of the court i'd woory about that if I lived in the US.

Supreme Court Justices shouldn't be chosen for ideological beliefs and partisan patronage and spoils in the first place. It was a violation of the principle of justice when it started, and potentially holds suspect, and in dubious jurisprudence, the great majority of Supreme Court rulings for true Constitutional clarity.

 

[Zardnaar]

Considering, in American politics the Democratic electorate extends, ideologically into the centre-right part of it by a bit, and the Green Party has about 2-4% of left-wing voters, and the Libertarian and Constitution Parties hold about 5% together of voters, mostly right-leaning (with some left-leaning voters favouring the Libertarians, for some reasons), and, in 2016, a fair number who might have otherwise voted Democrat voted for Trump for purely economic and jobs-related reasons, ignoring his more inflammatory racial rhetoric (even though @Arwon, @Cloud_Strife, and a few others here swear up and down that this particularly voting is a pure and flagrant impossibility - that only bigot-priority voter could POSSIBLY vote for Trump), the fact is, the Democratic Party of the United States is not REALLY coterminous with the left-wing spectrum voters in their entirety, in the United States, exactly and solidly - although, it's close, it's not close enough to be conflating the terms like that ALL THE TIME.

Its left wing by USA standards.

A lot of right wing parties outside the US believe in things like universal health care or are smart enough they lose if they cut it.

Welfare cuts only effect less than 10% and most of them don't vote right anyway. So social programs are easy cuts to fund tax cuts.

 

[Socrates99]

Not as dangerous as Trump when it comes to appointing Supreme Court Justices and when the 2 oldest (both in their 80s) are both on the more liberal side of the court i'd woory about that if I lived in the US.

Its why I said "areas." I think Biden is far more likely to be able to ram through social spending cuts including social security. He's also less likely to receive pushback on any military action he takes. Biden's side of the Democrat party has been right on board cheering on the coup in Bolivia and the attempted coup in Venezuela. Biden is likely to return to pushing the TPP which, while I have my issues with Trump's trade stance, is definitely worse than Trump. I'm not even sure he's significantly better on climate. He'll likely return to Obama's all of the above energy policy. Obama removed the 40 year ban on exporting US oil and didn't ban fracking.

We're still in the primary. The momentum is with Joe and he only needs 49% of remaining Democrats but there's a debate coming up and Bernie can still win if he pulls 55%. Pointing out where Biden is a terrible candidate is only prudent at this point. Our vote is our only leverage. Pledging it now gives that up.

In my first post I said "I don't know" and that is 100% because of RBG.

I do want to put things into perspective here. Trump wins and we have 4 more years of that dope. On the other hand, Biden picks a young neoliberal to run as VP. Biden, because of his age serves 1 term and passes the torch to his neoliberal veep who then serves 2 terms. That's either 4 years of Trump with a possible progressive like Cortez in 2024 or 12 years of neoliberal third way politics with a potential of another more competent hard right Trump in the future.

 

[Zardnaar]

Its why I said "areas." I think Biden is far more likely to be able to ram through social spending cuts including social security. He's also less likely to receive pushback on any military action he takes. Biden's side of the Democrat party has been right on board cheering on the coup in Bolivia and the attempted coup in Venezuela. Biden is likely to return to pushing the TPP which, while I have my issues with Trump's trade stance, is definitely worse than Trump. I'm not even sure he's significantly better on climate. He'll likely return to Obama's all of the above energy policy. Obama removed the 40 year ban on exporting US oil and didn't ban fracking.

We're still in the primary. The momentum is with Joe and he only needs 49% of remaining Democrats but there's a debate coming up and Bernie can still win if he pulls 55%. Pointing out where Biden is a terrible candidate is only prudent at this point. Our vote is our only leverage. Pledging it now gives that up.

In my first post I said "I don't know" and that is 100% because of RBG.

I do want to put things into perspective here. Trump wins and we have 4 more years of that dope. On the other hand, Biden picks a young neoliberal to run as VP. Biden, because of his age serves 1 term and passes the torch to his neoliberal veep who then serves 2 terms. That's either 4 years of Trump with a possible progressive like Cortez in 2024 or 12 years of neoliberal third way politics with a potential of another more competent hard right Trump in the future.

AoC won't win in 2024.

Progressive can't until somewhere like Ohio/Florida/Ohio flips reliably.

And it won't be the progressives flipping those states.

You're looking at another decade at least. You might be able to get an Obama or Elizabeth Warren type.

Bernie and AoC nope.

 

[Patine]

AoC won't win in 2024.

Progressive can't until somewhere like Ohio/Florida/Ohio flips reliably.

And it won't be the progressives flipping those states.

You're looking at another decade at least. You might be able to get an Obama or Elizabeth Warren type.

Bernie and AoC nope.

"I've been afraid of changes,
Because I've built my life around you,
But time makes older,
Children get older,
And I'm getting older too,"

-Fleetwood Mack, "Landslide,"

 

[Zardnaar]

"I've been afraid of changes,
Because I've built my life around you,
But time makes older,
Children get older,
And I'm getting older too,"

-Fleetwood Mack, "Landslide,"

It's not that here's what happens.

Assuming a progressive can actually win.

Any Democrat in a purple state has a choice of supporting them or not. Most won't as they face being booted out of office.

If they do there's a reasonable chance the GoP can flip stuff. They're not gonna sign off on a green new deal. They might sign off on healthcare reform.

Laws take time to write and pass. They have two years until mid terms. Assuming they get the Senate they have two years roughly which is enough time to force through maybe 1-2 bits of legislation.
Assuming they have Senate, president, Congress and a compliant party.

USA will get a progressive president soon but I doubt before 2028 and I doubt they can get much done. Think Obama 2.0.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Its why I said "areas." I think Biden is far more likely to be able to ram through social spending cuts including social security. He's also less likely to receive pushback on any military action he takes. Biden's side of the Democrat party has been right on board cheering on the coup in Bolivia and the attempted coup in Venezuela. Biden is likely to return to pushing the TPP which, while I have my issues with Trump's trade stance, is definitely worse than Trump. I'm not even sure he's significantly better on climate. He'll likely return to Obama's all of the above energy policy. Obama removed the 40 year ban on exporting US oil and didn't ban fracking.

We're still in the primary. The momentum is with Joe and he only needs 49% of remaining Democrats but there's a debate coming up and Bernie can still win if he pulls 55%. Pointing out where Biden is a terrible candidate is only prudent at this point. Our vote is our only leverage. Pledging it now gives that up.

In my first post I said "I don't know" and that is 100% because of RBG.

I do want to put things into perspective here. Trump wins and we have 4 more years of that dope. On the other hand, Biden picks a young neoliberal to run as VP. Biden, because of his age serves 1 term and passes the torch to his neoliberal veep who then serves 2 terms. That's either 4 years of Trump with a possible progressive like Cortez in 2024 or 12 years of neoliberal third way politics with a potential of another more competent hard right Trump in the future.

And if Trump wins you have a hard right Supreme Court for 20-30 years.

 

[Ironsided]

And Trump will win if Biden is the nominee. Biden is like Swinson on sleeping pills and a triple deep lobotomy procedure. That’s the problem. The electability argument for Biden is ridiculous. He is useless in debates and he is an establishment candidate in a time of record demand for populism. He is less than half of Hillary. He’s a dead fish. His brain is an ex-parrot. Moved to the other side. Seized to exist. A 100% guarantee of Trump judges.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Considering, in American politics the Democratic electorate extends, ideologically into the centre-right part of it by a bit, and the Green Party has about 2-4% of left-wing voters, and the Libertarian and Constitution Parties hold about 5% together of voters, mostly right-leaning (with some left-leaning voters favouring the Libertarians, for some reasons), and, in 2016, a fair number who might have otherwise voted Democrat voted for Trump for purely economic and jobs-related reasons, ignoring his more inflammatory racial rhetoric (even though @Arwon, @Cloud_Strife, and a few others here swear up and down that this particularly voting is a pure and flagrant impossibility - that only bigot-priority voter could POSSIBLY vote for Trump), the fact is, the Democratic Party of the United States is not REALLY coterminous with the left-wing spectrum voters in their entirety, in the United States, exactly and solidly - although, it's close, it's not close enough to be conflating the terms like that ALL THE TIME.

For future reference, please do not tag me in your posts unless we are in active discussion.

 

[Socrates99]

And if Trump wins you have a hard right Supreme Court for 20-30 years.

Terrible place to be right? The hard right court could impact me for sure. On the other hand cuts to social security will absolutely hurt me. I have no reason to believe Biden won't do just that in some effort to balance the budget. Especially when he's on video advocating just that multiple times over his career.

I mean I have a long post with bad policies with decades long negative impact that were made by neoliberals. Most of those rotten policies were supported by Biden.

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: This fight will stop now. Do I make myself clear?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

The mute button is there for a reason my friend.

That's all i have to say.