Possible new leader for each civ

Swein Forkbeard

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Hello, Sir!
Feel free to add more to the list.

*America: Ronald Reagan, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt

Arabia: Abu Bakr, Harun al-Rashid

Aztec: Itzcoatl

Babylon: Nebuchadrezzar II

Byzantium: Basil II, Theodora (this is like having Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt as separate leaders)

Carthage: Dido, Hamilcar Barca

Celtia: Brian Boru, Vercingetorix

China: Wu Chao, T'ai Tsung, Xuanzong, Yong Le

Egypt: Khufu, Cleopatra VIII

*England: Duke of Wellington, Richard II, Alfred the Great

Ethiopia: Menelik II, Haile Selassie I

*France: Joan of Arc (can't really think of anybody else), Philip Augustus

Germany: Paul von Hindenburg, Adolf Hitler, Wilhelm II

Greece: Leonidas, Kleomenes I

Holy Rome: Maria Theresa, Franz Josef, Otto I, Frederick Barbarossa

Inca: Pachacuti

India: Jalaluddin Muhammad Akbar, Jawaharlal Nehru, Chandragupta Maurya

Japan: Meiji, Hirohito

Khmer: Jayavarman VII

Korea: Gwangaetto (again, can't really think of anybody else)

Mali: Sundiata Keita

Maya: Smoke Jaguar

Mongolia: Batu Khan, Mongke Khan

Native America: Hiawatha

Netherlands: Maurice of Nassau (can't really thing of anybody else), Wilhelmina

Ottomans: Osman I, Murad II

Persia: Tamerlane, Xerxes, Shapur

Portugal: Henry the Navigator, Joao III, Alfonso I, Marquis of Pombal

Rome: Hadrian

*Russia: Ivan III, Vladmir Lenin

Spain: Carlos V, Philip II

Sumeria: Sargon I

Vikings: Canute the Great

Zululand: Dingane, Cetshwayo
 
I question the logic of some of those choices
 
I've left the ones I agree with:

---

America: Thomas Jefferson

Babylon: Nebuchadrezzar II

Byzantium: Theodora

Carthage: Dido

Egypt: Khufu

England: Richard I

France: Joan of Arc

Germany: Frederick Barbarossa

Greece: Leonidas

Holy Rome: Maria Theresa and Charles V

Japan: Meiji

Khmer: Jayavarman VII

Native America: Hiawatha

Netherlands: Wilhelmina

Ottomans: Osman I

Rome: Hadrian

Spain: Carlos V (here or as Holy Roman Emperor)

Sumeria: Sargon I

Vikings: Canute the Great
 
Theodora is Justinian's Wife, there's no need to have both of them...

I'd prefer Alexious I, but I think Justinian should have been Alexious because Alexious fits Spiritual/Imperialist better than Justinian.
 
Ronald Reagan? you have to be kidding. Nobody will be saying he's great when the rest of the world leaves the dollar behind and we crumble under the financialization and enourmous debt we've created for ourselves...

Charles is a great choice for a new Spanish leader though.
 
I was actually thinking of Sundiata as a second Malinese leader yesterday. So, I'm for that choice. Along with Maria Theresa, and Meiji.
 
I question the logic of some of those choices

I second your opinion. In particular, let's start with some backup for choices like...

  • Reagan: T. Roosevelt or Jefferson would be my choices, less recent
  • Duke of Wellington: why? Famous Napoleonic general, sure, but why him over somebody like Alfred the Great, the only English king to have the titular "the Great"
  • Joan of Arc: a peasant girl slain at the age of 19, when you could pick a real monarch like Phillip Augustus--there are others too
  • Paul von Hindenburg: you could have picked Otto I or Barbarossa, although Barbarossa fits better with HRE
  • Leonidas: bad pick for Greece--he lost, by the way
  • Maria Theresa: look above--Barbarossa; Maria Theresa managed to lose a lot of territory and influence to Frederick II of Prussia
  • Tamerlane: somebody above mentioned he wasn't Persian...it was my understanding he ruled over a Mongolian "successor state"

I could pick on more of the choices, but this is ample for early discussion.
 
[*]Joan of Arc: a peasant girl slain at the age of 19, when you could pick a real monarch like Phillip Augustus--there are others too

So? She did lead France. She wasn't a monarch but then there are many in the game who aren't monarchs. Her legacy is that she led France at a time when it was threatened to cease to exist. She did MORE THAN the monarch at the time. And that's why she should be in. She wasn't a Great General, she was a great leader that inspired the men.

[*]Maria Theresa: look above--Barbarossa; Maria Theresa managed to lose a lot of territory and influence to Frederick II of Prussia

Well some leaders in the game lost wars so I don't see why this is a big issue. And some lost a lot of territories. She did introduce reforms in her country and her reign was a prosperous one for her people.
 
So? She did lead France. She wasn't a monarch but then there are many in the game who aren't monarchs. Her legacy is that she led France at a time when it was threatened to cease to exist. She did MORE THAN the monarch at the time. And that's why she should be in. She wasn't a Great General, she was a great leader that inspired the men.



Well some leaders in the game lost wars so I don't see why this is a big issue. And some lost a lot of territories. She did introduce reforms in her country and her reign was a prosperous one for her people.

I don't have much time tonight, and will be more than willing to post more tomorrow. However, in short:

I don't require the leaders to be monarchs to lead the civilizations in the game--for example, American presidents are not monarchs, and neither was Hannibal, who was an oligarch along with others in Carthage. However, all the generals we have in Civ turned political in their lives: Washington, Hannibal, Julius Caesar, etc. Saying Joan of Arc did more than a cowardly king hiding in a corner doesn't strike me as cogent.

It isn't just a matter of losing wars--Hannibal lost, Napoleon lost, but I'll still argue for their inclusion far more greatly than Maria Theresa. Sometimes, you can make seemingly no major mistakes and still lose (that's life). But Maria Theresa was sheerly incompetent in foreign affairs, it seems. Her reign was the twilight of the Austrians and their empire, as Frederick of Prussia stole the limelight and became a major power in Europe and a key competitor, and Prussia kept that fire going and united Germany. Had Maria Theresa maintained Austrian dominance in German affairs and united Germany, I would think more kindly of her. However, she completely missed her opportunity to do such. And, if you, with an alliance of Austria, the HRE, France, Russia, and Sweden and a combined population of 100 million cannot destroy a tiny, surrounded country like Prussia with only 4 million inhabitants after 7 years of fighting...that speaks to your ineffectiveness as well.
 
If you want a Spartan for Greece, then the way to go is Kleomenes I. He was Leonidas's direct predecessor(IIRC, Leonidas was his brother-in-law) and was responsible for turning Sparta from just another city-state into THE power in the Peloponessus. However; he was caught red-handed forging an Oracular prophecy and was replaced by Leonidas, and no one complained when he turned up in a ditch the next morning, with a bunch of stab wounds all over his body from a "suicide". His death was why the Spartans refused to aid the Athenians at Marathon(they were observing a religious festival and afraid of aggravating Kleomenes's sacriledge) Other Greek leaders could be drawn from Epirus(Pyrrhos), or any of the Diodochi or "Successor" states(Antiochos IV comes to mind).

As for America, Jefferson or TR, no contest. Either of them could go over any of three current presidents. Not saying they're better, but that they're all so good....

Persia...I'd like them to get a Sassanid myself. Or a Parthian. Both can technically be considered Persian(in much the same way Alexander and the Maks can be considered Greek). Tamerlane; however, cannot.
 
Here's my pick:

America: Don't really need a fourth leader (though if i'm going to add one then probably Thomas Jefferson, Woodrow Wilson or Theodore Roosevelt
Arabia: HARUN AL RASHID!!! Or maybe Abu Bakr or Umar.
Aztec: Itzcoatl
Babylon: Nebuchadrezzar II
Byzantium: Basil II
Carthage: Dido
Celtia: Vercingetorix
China: So many choices here - Wu Di, Tang Taizong, Wu Zhao, Kangxi, Yongzheng, Qianlong, Sun Yat Sen, Gaozu are all good choices.
Egypt: Cleopatra
England: Doesn't really need a fourth leader.
Ethiopia: Menelik II
France: Doesn't really need a fourth leader.
Germany: Um... can't really think of anyone. Konrad Adenauer?
Greece: Leonidas is fine, though I'd prefer someone more modern.
Holy Rome: Maria Theresa or Frederick II or Frederick I Barbarossa, Charles V
Inca: Pachacuti
India: Several good choices here - Chandragupta, Horsha, Jalaluddin Muhammad Akbar, Krishnadevaraya, Shivaji
Japan: Meiji
Khmer: Jayavarman VII
Korea: Sejong the Great or Manmu the Great
Mali: Sundiata Keita
Maya: Jasaw Chan K'awiil I or Nun Yax Ayin. Both were kings of Tikal
Mongolia: Mongke Khan probably a good choice here, and also Tamurlane (though he wasn't really a Mongol). Also, there were several powerful and very ruthless women controlling the Mongol Empire - Töregene Khatun, Sorghaghtani Beki and a few others.
Native America: Hiawatha
Netherlands: Um...maybe Wilhelmina?
Ottomans: Osman I
Persia: Shah Abbas is a good choice here. Also, Khosrau I, Xerxes, Shapur I
Portugal: Joao III, Alfonso I
Rome: Trajan, Marcus Aurelius, Vespasian, Constantine
Russia: Doesn't really need a fourth leader, but Ivan III is a good choice
Spain: Philip II
Sumeria: Sargon or Ur Nammu
Vikings: Canute the Great
Zululand: Dingane, Cetshwayo
 
[*]Duke of Wellington: why? Famous Napoleonic general, sure, but why him over somebody like Alfred the Great, the only English king to have the titular "the Great"

Yes, Wellington was a great general but a lousy politician.
I say William Pit, either Jr or Sr for England, though Richard, Alfred or even Arthur would be a better pick for publicity.
 
I like Phillip II for Spain also.... hate izzy.
 
Actually, I don't feel that Americans are really a civ, they should be a part of English.

But,

Germans : Adolf Hitler, Wilhelm II
Persians : Xerxes
Spanish : Franco
Roman : Nero
Mongolia : Batu Khan
Russia : Ivan IV
Japan : Hirohito
 
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