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Post 0.41h AI feedback needed

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Kael, Oct 10, 2009.

  1. WCH

    WCH Prince

    Joined:
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    491
    Calabim are using skeletons properly -- had them in the stack, suicided them against my city prior to attacking with anything else and then summoned more to defend the stack. Their vampires however don't seem all that powerful, so I doubt they're really using the feast mechanic as well as they should.

    Also, more cases of sizable AI stacks of mostly archers wandering around outside cities not doing anything helpful, occasionally suiciding against the cities I took while they weren't defending. To be honest, I showed up with overwhelming force, so I don't think even a well managed defence wouldn't helped them much, but their defence was definitely far from optimal. Please teach the AI to *defend* with archers, not make them wander aimlessly and occasionally attack superior forces en masse.
     
  2. MaJa

    MaJa Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2008
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    played another clan game, the ai makes huge stacks but doesn't know how to use them.for example i stood with my stack of about 60 units infront of basiums capitol. 2tiles west of his capitol basium had a stack of more then 80 angels plus a lot of axemen. at the same time elohim who summoned basium had a gigantic stack of over 200units also within striking distance. neither attacked me nor did they defend their capitol. also they let their heroes wander alone right next to our border. i picked of corlindale + kithra and basium this way.
    in the same game the hippus where conquering the whole north side of the map i saw them destroy the amurites with horse archers and chariots around turn 220-250? now at turn 350+ they are fighting a war against kuriotates with lots of warriors,archers,hunters. almost no horse archers or chariots in sight.
     
  3. Inkling

    Inkling Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2007
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    The AI is abandoning valueable, highly defensible positions in face of even potential defeat. for example, when attacking their capital, it was a push as to who would win, until all but one warrior abandoned it to run to other cities, sacrificing their fortification bonus and their city defense bonus(since i picked off some before they got to their new destination) and the culture defense bonus of the capital. and since a few were injured, they also weren't healing while they withdrew.

    As has been said before, the ai's are clustering their cities together. while nice for me since i conquer them without having a huge sprawling empire, they are often leaving me no choice but for an early war by clustering capitals together, its war they are poorly set up for since they often take 4-5 turns to found their capital, traveling with both their scout and warrior, so i get the goody huts, a 4-5 turn head start in research, and production, and best of all culture, which usually cuts into their bfc.
     
  4. Jenaelha

    Jenaelha fields of Elanor

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    I had Calabim with Desius (?) (Good) attack my cities with Vamps, Skellies, Archers, Asassins, and Catapults. The Skellies were spawned once on attack but they were never used. The Asassins were used to great success, picking off the weak, but the Archers were poorly used as offensive units.

    The Vamps were all 2cd level units so I agree they were not feasting well, though there were a lot of them.
     
  5. Calbrenar

    Calbrenar Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
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    I'm super sad. My buddy and I started playing again and must have played like over 1000 turns over like 25 restarted games and no OOS' and we thought they must have been all fixed with the new patch and then we got into a late Sheim/Calabim game AC 40+ and we got an OOS right after Stephanos popped and its come back twice. It makes me sad. Now I'm wondering if the only reason we didn't get more OOS' is because of how often we were playing early game.

    Flavour mod -- Flavour start, blessings, living world, wildlands, aggressive ai, ruthless barbs, new seed on reload, no tech brokering, 18 AI.

    Oh and some of those world spells are freaking obnoxious. We had no real issues with Auric's it was annoying but didn't really hurt anyone but Valledia fired off hers right as I was containing hell terrain and about to kill hyborem cuz he was annoying me (i'm sheim) and the spell popped and there went my beautiful containment of the terrain ;x
     
  6. Emptiness

    Emptiness []

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    Why are you reporting an OOS using FlavourMod in a thread for feedback on AI changes to base FfH2?
     
  7. readercolin

    readercolin King

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    Because all FlavorMod does is gives flavorful starting positions - everything else is the base mod. He also isn't the only one that has been experiencing more OOS's than usual with this latest patch.

    -Colin
     
  8. orgonebox

    orgonebox Squidtastic

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    I can also confirm that the AI has extremely large wandering stacks o'doom which don't seem to do much beyond run around. In my current game the Ljosalfar have a stack that is well over 200 units, with 127 longbowmen alone, not to mention some 40 rangers, diseased corpses, and who knows what else. This stack could have easily stomped the clan, with whom they were at war, yet didn't do much except wander along the border. It makes the Ljos (and any civ) a pain to attack while a planned defense (if this SoD ever attacks) at higher difficulties is economically unviable.
     
  9. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

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    Those megastacks will come after you unless you take one of their cities which is close to the stack.

    As calabim, vs. clan, the clan marshalled like 60 axemen to send against me by turn 150. I had like a third that many moroi. I won by using haste + burning blood to capture the city the stack moved out of, letting the stack go into the captured city then out again, and repeating this until I could get Honor and build a small set of radiant guards, then letting the clan stack advance on me and crippling them with blind as they advanced. They kept moving forward, but in smaller and smaller numbers as they got paralyzed, and they crashed into my walled city in manageable, bite sized chunks.
     
  10. Calbrenar

    Calbrenar Prince

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    We're starting to see a lot more OOS' now. Not sure what changed.
     
  11. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    I dislike these massive SoD the AI is throwing around these days. I know the AI has always been capable of building them before, but now it seems they are frustratingly common. What can a human player do in the early game when AI's are throwing around 20 warrior stacks? Trying to match them in troops only cripples your economy. Best way seems to be avoiding the stacks and relying on poor AI decisions. I'm not really happy with that. The AI can crush me, but is too stupid to realize how. Even if I pull off a win, I don't feel like I'm actually winning. :(
    Side note: archers being used as attackers needs a quick fix. Seems like one of the more basic mistakes the AI is making which, hopefully, can be easily fixed.
     
  12. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Its time the AIs unit maintenance and unit upgrade costs were reexamined.
     
  13. Twan

    Twan Chieftain

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    Oct 11, 2009
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    I have to say, after 4 games played to mid/late game on patch h, not counting 4 or 5 where I was myself destroyed early by barbarians, my conclusion is I completely dislike the new AI behavior, to the point I've just reinstalled FFH with patch g.

    What I expected :
    - a civilization AI able to use spells and rituals and planning long term so good even in long games
    - AI civilizations able to create a defense like the player when you play with enraged barbarians / barb world etc..
    - really better AIs, able to compete even if they play with the same rules as the player, not cheating 10 times more

    What I've seen :
    - AIs summoning things but often not using them (ie : casting fireballs, then letting them disappear in the stack), spell use only improved for nations with evocation trait (imagining they summon a sufficient number of units to risk them before they disappear ; I've seen the sheaim I think using summons well)
    - AIs still not using rituals and not taking abandoned items (and new things : not using any sea unit too and not competing on most wonders -don't know if it's due to the barbarian pressure making AIs only build soldiers, but I've only been beaten one time on a wonder in patch h, when I lose the race several times per game with patch g)
    - most AIs civs completely outmatched by barbarians in long/big games and destroyed by them before I even reach them (the only civilization I've seen doing really well in all games were the doviellos, because they have the barbarians trait and relly on units the AI upgrades at discounted costs ; the clan is of course advantaged too in early game, but later probably gimped by the AI not making its best units)
    - the only AI certainly really improved, is the barbarian one : they are really annoying and make the game really annoying as well, destroying its atmosphere (for me the new barbarians behavior reach the point of disbilieve : instead of acting as savages barbarians from different cities probably leaded by local warlords, they play as the elements of the same very organized big realm, coordinating their attacks ; not even speaking of orcs, lizardmen and the famous non suicidal undeads working together to ruin the life of civilized realms)
    - AIs civs cheating even more (or in a more visible way at least), sustaining stacks of hundreds of units without bankrupcy and very early in the game, but unable to cleverly use these stacks (not even able to send them 3 tiles away, to their ex capitol I've just taken, only defended by my 2 or 3 weakened remaining attackers and when my other troops are too far to reinforce it)
    - most AIs units / stacks of doom be them barbarians or civilized wandering randomly in circles, making turns very long if you want to see their moves, and as they continuously move losing the fortication bonus they can have (what's the point of this AI ADD ? if the goal is to wait and gather a big horde before attacking isn't it better to fortify the first units on a defensive terrain near your target ?)
    - AI giving me copper for a mana when they are far to have the techs to use it (don't know if this problem is new, but I've just realised AIs seem to value mana more than anything and even if they have no knowledge of magic)

    Sorry for what seem to be a rant, when it's true this patch as somewhat succeeded to make the (early) game more challenging with its painfull barbarians, and it may also be true that on some settings the new AI is better (I always play at slow speed, on big/huge maps and with raging barbs, it may be a worst case for AIs civs), but all I hope is to be able to get new versions or modmods without (or better with a different) new AI. Actually in all games where I survived past the early barbarians era I beat the AIs civs in everything (I've not finished a game so I can't say if I would have had a surprise in late game, but around year 400-500 I'm usually far above all (the few remaining) AIs but the ones with barbarian trait in score ; and I've only be beaten one time at this stage, by a doviello invasion with an unstoppable stack of 80 or so axemen - only time I've seen an AI finally really use their SoD).

    Don't know if it's possible, but my dream would be to have AIs changes as options, so in example you can use the new AIs for nations (or better for the nations really improved by it, like the ones with the evocation trait) but not barbarians (or nations obviously gimped by the new production program).
     
  14. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    actually I expected something like this, it would have been a lot better to wait to put out patch H till the new version of Wild Mana, since 5.0 has a number of flaws.
     
  15. iamdanthemansta

    iamdanthemansta Edward of Woodstock

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    've been playing a little with the new patch as so far I've noticed a few things:

    1) The barbarians are definitly a lot tougher and smarter now. They dance around and don't just suicide themselves. If this is really the best option I'll leave to others but it's interesting.

    2) The stack of doom seem a little out of hand. I just feel totally overwhelmed by the 100 units the AI is constantly moving around. It seems to push the human player even more heavily into leaning on a big hero or some AoE damage to deal with the sheer numbers. The AI has always been better with quantity than quality but this seems out of hand. I guess I'd rather they have half as many units but better ones just to make the game go a little faster.

    3) A lot of the dumb stuff the AI was doing with heroes is still there. Very important heroes out by themselves for no good reason and what not.

    4) The AI seems to be doing a much better job of picking its spots when to attack. It won't just send in the troops until it has a good chance of winning overall and will pull back when being beaten.
     
  16. MiKa523

    MiKa523 Nerdish by Nature

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    I just started an Always War game playing a alliance with the Bannor and I noticed the following:
    The only tech, we had for workers, was exploration, so Bannor didn't build anything in their city until we researched agriculture, which caused them to start a worker one turn before the city would have grown to 2.

    Maybe this is also a reason, why AIs get stomped by the Barbarians early on, if this is a usual AI behaviour.
    Ignoring warriors first and only starting a worker, when techs for improvements are available, results in wasted production and of course much less defenders for early Lizardmen etc, for all civs with certain start techs.
     
  17. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    In my only game I played with Wild Mana, the units in AI huge stacks which it didn't use had UNITAI_BARBSMASHER. Can that be related to the problem of clumsy AI stacks?
     
  18. Emptiness

    Emptiness []

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    Seriously, reporting OOSs is not a type of AI feedback. Report them in the FlavourMod thread, or replicate the OOSs with base FfH2 and then report them in the FfH2 Bug Thread.
     
  19. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    People ought to also state the difficulty level they are playing at. I remember that the main reasons I played at lower difficulties in BtS was that at higher ones the AI maintained far more units than I could possibly build (since I also focused on buildings), and thus I had lots of demands and war declarations, then faced stacks of units far too large for me to handle.
     
  20. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I haven't really noticed much of an improvement, and have hardly encountered any barbarians. Of course, using Classical Start/Advanced Start may have something to do with that.
     

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