Pre-SysNES2: Beta-testing and Submission

[thomas.berubeg]

Well, I'll be back when I can force my schedule into a semblance of decency? is that acceptable?

 

[Disenfrancised]

This is why I was in favor of raising the mass/size caps from a linear model, and I'm happy it's being considered. Unless later components get smaller, these ships just feel...small, both in armament and in armor. I wouldn't call anything below the [CON6] limit anything more than a Destroyer, and most of them tend to be Patrol Boats, Cutters, or Gun Boats.

Yes, the new function is round(((CON+2)^1.8)*3*(1+2^(CON-7)),-1). Thus Con levels will give you:

0  10
1  20
2  40
3  60
4  80
5  120
6  190
7  310
8  570
9  1120
10 2370

Stationary platforms won't have any size or mass limit at all. However to balance this, large ships will start costing increasingly large amounts of extra m and v.

On the antimatter issue - I put the antimatter in there to have the various a parts of the ship calculator stress tested, and because a few npc's will have antimatter ships at the beginning. The rest of the components are pretty much Tech levels 1-3, whilst the heavy antimatter economy is tech 6+. Techs 4-5 will have some intermediate components that'll make the antimatter improvement seem less of a massive jump.

I'm not the most erudite designer but so far I have a hard time seeing a place for compromise, "good-enough" vehicles in the paradigm. They're not efficient enough or effective enough to compete with either end of the spectrum, so far.

I agree the tests so far seem to indicate that. However I'm not sure if that's even a bad thing. I do think that good-enough ships will have a use outside of heavy battle roles - when you want to send some investigators or a trade mission several jumps distant whilst still beating up any minor pirates it encounters, or lingering in system you want to exert influence in, a good multirole middle-ranger should come in handy.

The allowing larger ships will certainly devalue swarms when you can load up enough armour to laugh them off.

On the 'to hit' issue, this is how the next battlecalc should have it:

 

[Symphony D.]

That scale looks really good, and feels about right. The rest makes good sense, and I think it's shaping up well.

 

[Thlayli]

An experiment in idiocy:

Confederate Star Ship Blunderbuss

2x Twist Drive
5x Pellet Fusion Core
4x Deuterium Drive
1x Pulse Drive
1x Recyclers
1x Hibernation Pods
1x Habitat Section
3x Fusion Busters
1x Cluster Bombs
6x Tungsten Armor
1x Reflective Cladding

 

[Symphony D.]

Kal, would you mind explaining how you've been calculating to-hit probabilities? It seems like a relatively important thing that's not displayed when trying to evaluate a design. Then again, it also seems difficult to estimate the effectiveness of any given set of defenses...

I'm guessing the battle calculator can be used to test both hit probabilities and weapon/defense effectiveness, but I haven't played around with it much yet.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Kal, would you mind explaining how you've been calculating to-hit probabilities? It seems like a relatively important thing that's not displayed when trying to evaluate a design. Then again, it also seems difficult to estimate the effectiveness of any given set of defenses...

I'm guessing the battle calculator can be used to test both hit probabilities and weapon/defense effectiveness, but I haven't played around with it much yet.

Since the random function in the calculator is a uniform distribution its pretty easy to work out by reading the function.

Also since the engineering page generates a hundred to hit checks then slices the number of weapons used, he could just be looking there. I'll add in a to hit probability cell on the main page as its a good idea.

 

[Kal'thzar]

Its pretty easy to calculate:

e.g. take formula for BEAM to hit on engineering page
=IF((RANDBETWEEN(0,10)+CALCULATOR!$D$19-CALCULATOR!$H$19/4-CALCULATOR!$H$23*IF(CALCULATOR!$D$15="L",4,1)-IF(CALCULATOR!$D$15="L",2,-2))>5,1,0)

Or more human speak:
=IF((RANDBETWEEN(0,10)+aInt-dInt/4-Dodge*IF(RANGE="L",4,1)-IF(RANGE="L",2,-2))>5 then Hit else Miss)

aInt, dInt are attacker and defenders Int scores giving us:

To hit is (aInt-dInt/4-Dodge*IF(RANGE="L",4,1)-IF(RANGE="L",2,-2)+5)*10

A lot of things simplify there...

Some Checks on the above:

aInt, dInt, Dodge all = 0, Range = C
To hit is 70%
aInt, dInt, Dodge all = 0, Range = L
To hit is 30%
aInt = 4, dInt = 4 Dodge = 2, Range = C
To hit is 80%

This is correct! As Dis says you can get a rough and ready check by doing AVERAGE(COLUMN) in the Engineering tab, but with only 100 entries its +- 0.1.

@Dis one last thing for V6, missiles can do negative damage! Might want to put a MIN function in so damage is always 0 or more.

 

[Thlayli]

The bare minimum for a long-range supply ship. Ion Drives allow it to hide during battle. Costs 139e.

3x Manifold Drive
4x Pellet Fusion Core
4x Ion Drive
1x Recyclers
1x Hibernation Pods
1x Habitat Section
1x Supply Section
1x Repair Bay

 

[Disenfrancised]

The bare minimum for a long-range supply ship. Ion Drives allow it to hide during battle. Costs 139e.

3x Manifold Drive
4x Pellet Fusion Core
4x Ion Drive
1x Recyclers
1x Hibernation Pods
1x Habitat Section
1x Supply Section
1x Repair Bay

Ion drives don't do that any more due to math.

 

[Thlayli]

Oh yeah, can you clarify how colonization and orbital construction will work?

 

[Disenfrancised]

Well you start by building a planetary base or space frame, and spending the costs the environment mandates. There's no getting round the cost with exploitable micromanagement like in SysNES1.

You can build a base in four places:
A) A slot to the side of a populated planetary habitat you control.
B) The same orbital slot, or a planetary slot downward of a populated orbital habitat you control.
C) The same orbital slot, or a planetary slot downward of a fleet you control with an engineering bay and the needed resources in its holds.
D) The same planetary slot one of your armies occupies, if the resources needed have been dropped off.

This if you want to colonize an orbit or moons from a surface, you need to build a engineering tug on the planetary surface and have it lift off first.

Once a base has been built, you hope and pray some of your population moves there and it begins paying for itself. Once populated its part of your trade net and you can build buildings. Alternatively a fleet with an engineering bay or an engineer specialist could build buildings in an unpopulated base, though they won't produce any value till people move in (sometimes you will have to build stuff remotely like this in order to make the base palatable enough for people to want to move).

As the population grows you need to build Urbanisation, Suburbs and Arcologies to house planetary pop and Hab Modules and Arcologies to house orbital pop.

Unpopulated bases are not completely useless, as they can still refuel your ships and house armies, and commercial agent specialists can make it part of your trade net even if no one lives there.

To build a ship in space, you need an orbital habitat with a spaceport.

 

[Thlayli]

How much larger a ship does Rugged Designers allow you to build on-planet? I'm considering dumping that trait for another/others.

 

[Kal'thzar]

I don't think hes properly considered balance of racial traits yet (consider on the traits post where he says he'll refund/reapply points if things become worth less or more).

Dis, have you progressed with a habitat builder? I'm curious to what the optimal size of e is to transport to a new system.

Also Version 6 on ship designer/BattleCalc? My fingers itch to do some more battle calculations

 

[Disenfrancised]

Also Version 6 on ship designer/BattleCalc? My fingers itch to do some more battle calculations

whine whine whine with you ain't it?

Change Log for VERSION6

BattleCalc_V6
-Added estimated to hit calculator, it's only a rough value because I am lazy
-To hit calculation reworked for all weapon types.

ShipDesigner2_V6
-A bunch of new components - these are for you guys complaining about ship boarding and e warfare defences, and also some fun tech 9 and 10 stuff (some fields were a bit empty at the top). You should be able to field effective fighting craft going up any tech field (though what they'll be effective at will vary).
-Size and Mass limits substantially reworked, large ships now cost extra m and v
-Stationary orbiters and planetary battery now added explicitly
-Culture bonuses now added in.
-Upper limit on Dodge and IP speed added, based on what would squish your crews. Various components raise this limit.
-Fire control function added, ships can now regenerate up to 50% of their starting health during combat and recover from Int debuffs.
-Values of many things tweaked.

Has anyone been stress testing the army designer?

 

[Thlayli]

I've been poking at it. Does the excess vehicle supply operation bonus stack with the 'can operate alone for' stat?

It would be great if you'd link all the datasheets you've released (terraforming info, hab components, etc.) to the front page.

 

[Disenfrancised]

I've been poking at it. Does the excess vehicle supply operation bonus stack with the 'can operate alone for' stat?

What? The vehicle supply being in excess is one of the things that affects the operate alone counter.

 

[Kal'thzar]

whine whine whine with you ain't it?

Awesome. And yes. I am going to be all over this.

I'll have a look at the Army Calculator at some point.

 

[Kal'thzar]

Thy, Symph, Seon, Matt

Make more ships, 600e this time; and try to keep a realistic control on the level of v and m you need. i.e. fleets~200-300 combined units or v and m.

a is not a problem as antimatter is now higher tech.

Other restrictions you place on yourself is up to you.

 

[Thlayli]

On it Kal.

What? The vehicle supply being in excess is one of the things that affects the operate alone counter.

Oh, that wasn't explicitly clear; thanks.

Do you need to achieve space superiority in order to land an army, or can it be done if an enemy fleet is actively resisting you in orbit?

Also I approve of the new components.

 

[Disenfrancised]

One thing I've already erred on - forgot to implement the cooling factor of being planetside. And the EW calculation is broken, replace cell K40 with this:

Spoiler EW Patch :

=ROUND(SUM(CC!DC3C195)*IF(G81=1,1.15,1)*IF(B15="Y",1.2,1)+B4+B8+ROUND(B9/4,0),0)

A fleet concept to get you thinking:

Batsman
1 x Light Sail
2 x Solar Array
1 x Computer Module
1 x Commlinks
2 x Jammer
1 x Microwave Beamer
1 x Heavy Cladding

Costs 54e 35m 1v, deals 4 long range EM damage and provides 2 Int debuff to foes and 1 Int buff to allies. But more importantly, its microwave beamer can push around all these mirror sail weapons package with mass less than itself (24) giving them a virtual IP of 4.

Hardball
2 x Metal Capacitors
1 x Mirror Sail
1 x Radiators
3 x Microwave lasers

Cost 26e 20m, and has a mass of 15.

Fastball
1 x Metal Capacitors
1 x Mirror Sail
2 x Computer Module
1 x Scanners
2 x Kinetic Lances
2 x Interceptors

Costs 32e 15m 6v, at mass 22 is nearly the heavest thing the Batsman can whack about.

Eyeball
1 x Metal Capacitor
1 x Mirror Sail
2 x Computer Module
1 x Scanners
1 x EW Broadcaster

Costs 36e 7m and as a mass of 8. Will probably only get off 1-2 EW attacks before being splatted, but thats enough and the time the enemy takes on these is less time they're using against the other two.

Order of battle for the balls would be to remain in a single close range instance with each other whilst the batsman safely orbits another planet. When you want to take this show on the road you'd make a mk2 Batsman that's an IS carrier, and make an IS engineering ship that can build bases to charge the balls capacitors.