Pre-SysNES2: Beta-testing and Submission

Disenfrancised · Jan 25, 2012

Thlayli said:
Oh, that wasn't explicitly clear; thanks.

Do you need to achieve space superiority in order to land an army, or can it be done if an enemy fleet is actively resisting you in orbit?

Also I approve of the new components.

No worries.

You need control of space to land an army. You do not need control of space to drop an army (with drop pods or dropships).

Frozen In Ice · Jan 25, 2012

Starfire - Satellite orbitor
1x Stationary Orbitor
5x DHe Fusion Core
1x FireControl Teams
1x Computer Module
1x Scanners
2x Radiators
1x Microwave Beamer
1x Plasma Shield
2x Tungensten armor
1x Reflective Cladding

e: 145/ e refined: 65/ m:27/ v:13/ a:0/ t:0
Size:37/ Mass:36/ IS:0/ IP:0/ Range:0/ Power:22/ Heat:-5
Int: 1/ Armor:19/ Shields:10/ Long EM: 44

I could buy 5 of these for the 600 e and 200 m+v limit. If anyone feels like testing a planetary assualt battle they could use these.

EDIT: Why do some of the drives count as particle weapons and have particle damage listed in CC (but not in design though)?

Thlayli · Jan 25, 2012

For Dis:

So...Commlinks are now giving Fleet Int correctly, but the ship itself isn't getting additional Int. Not sure if that's a bug or a feature. Also, Scanners are now refusing to give extra Int when coupled with 1 Comp Module, and most of the IP drives are now classified as Particle Weapons but deal 0 damage.

Do you think EW Broadcasters should boost the Jammer Int debuff? As of now, EW Broadcasters are not very good/cost effective compared to Jammers + Commlinks for EW.

I also like the inclusion of the Salamander in the ship designer as an emasculating tactic.

For Kal:

Everything is unrefined except for the refined Ion Cannon, which would have been a sunk cost turns and turns before the fleet engagement.

Rugged Designers applied.

Confederate Star Ship Outrider Mk 2 (Escort-Class)
Cost: 117e
Int = 2 (7 w/bonus), IP Speed = 2, Particle Damage = 4x8, Missile Damage = 1x2, Dodge = -11, Armor = 13, Shielding = 1

3x Manifold Drive
2x Basic Fusion Core
4x Deuterium Drive
1x Pulse Drive
1x Recyclers
2x Computer Modules
1x Gas Vents
2x Interceptors
4x Ion Cannon (refined, coupled)
3x Tungsten Armour

Confederate Star Ship Warden Mk 2
Cost: 197e
Int = 3 [Fleet Int Bonus = 5], IP Speed = 1, Missile Damage = 1x3, EW Score = 11, [Vuln = 29, Jammer Debuff = 2], Dodge = -16, Armor = 13

4x Manifold Drive
3x Pellet Fusion Core
2x Deuterium Drive
1x Recyclers
1x Command Deck
1x Command Staff
3x Computer Module
1x Commlinks
1x Jammers
1x EW Broadcasters
1x Algorithmic Interlocks
1x Salt Sinks
2x Interceptors
1x EMP Busters
4x Tungsten Armour

Confederate Star Ship Bootstrap
Cost: 60e

3x Manifold Drive
5x Fission Core
10x External Hangars
1x Recyclers

Confederate Star Ship Partisan
Cost: 57e
Int = 0 IP Speed = 2, EM Damage = 14x3, Dodge = -8, Armor = -10

3x Pellet Fusion Core
3x Deuterium Drive
1x Pulse Drive
3x Radiators
3x Microwave Laser (coupled)

Confederate Battlefleet Mk 1

Outrider Mk 2 (Escort-Class) x2 - 234e
Warden Mk 2 x1 - 197e
Bootstrap x1 - 60e
Partisan x2 - 114e

Total: 605e
Tactical Doctrine: Partisans and Outriders close, Warden stays at long range. Partisans and Outriders use the Int bonus/enemy debuff to strike first if possible. Partisans close to attack poorly armored targets, Outriders close to attack heavily armored targets.

Edit: Fleet changed.

Disenfrancised · Jan 25, 2012

Thlayli said:
For Dis:

So...Commlinks are now giving Fleet Int correctly, but the ship itself isn't getting additional Int. Not sure if that's a bug or a feature. Also, Scanners are now refusing to give extra Int when coupled with 1 Comp Module, and Deuterium Drives are classified as Particle Weapons but deal 0 damage.

Do you think EW Broadcasters should boost the Jammer Int debuff? As of now, EW Broadcasters are not very good.

I also like the inclusion of the Salamander in the ship designer as an emasculating tactic.

Ships add the fleet int they provide to their own int score in the calculator, or the fleet int of another ship if that's superior.
Int is now like dodge, one of those negatively non-linear things, and its harder to get more int, note that a scanner and two modules will give more than the two modules on their own, but scanner and one gets rounded down.
There is an error in the scope of the particle damage calculation caused by the adding new components, but the drives don't do very much particle anyway. Fix by replacing K23 with =SUM(CC!BT3:BT195)-SUM(CC!BT137:BT140)
On EW broadcasters, they reduce your EW vulnerability rather than raising it like more comp modules do, and there may be later components that increase their effectiveness.
Hey the Apeilic Iris doesn't even have level 10 in all the tech fields (though they may have 10+ in some

).

@Kal if you want to test try 8 Hardballs, 6 Fastballs, 4 Eyeballs, and a Batsman for a fleet engagement.

Thlayli · Jan 25, 2012

Lowering the EW Vulnerability by 1 is fairly inconsequential on ECM-specialized ships with EW Vulnerabilities of 30+. :mischief:

But I suppose later components will address this.

Edit: Could you also look at the Jammer debuff? I know things are non-linear now, but 2x Jammers and 1x Jammers both give a debuff of 2 and that doesn't seem balanced.

Disenfrancised · Jan 25, 2012

Thlayli said:
Lowering the EW Vulnerability by 1 is fairly inconsequential on ECM-specialized ships with EW Vulnerabilities of 30+. But I suppose later components will address this.

Edit: Could you also look at the Jammer debuff? I know things are non-linear now, but 2x Jammers and 1x Jammers both give a debuff of 2 and that doesn't seem balanced.

It adds up, especially when you refine EW Broadcasters and they become size and mass 0.

Mass int debuff is a powerful effect, I'm fine with -2 costing three times as much as -1.

Frozen In Ice · Jan 25, 2012

Kal here's a fleet you could use.

DSF Hammerhead
3x Manifold Drive
2x DHe Fusion cores
1x Plasma Sails
1x Recyclers
1x Computer Module
1x Scanner
1x Radiators
1x Fusion Busters
4x Tungsten Armor
1x Reflective Cladding

e: 129/ e refined:58

DSF Beluga
3x Manifold Drive
4x DHe cores
1x Pulse Drive
1x Recycler
1x Command Deck
1x Command Staff
1x Fire Control Teams
1x Comlinks
1x Scanners
1x Jammer
2x Radiators
1x Ion Jet
2x Tungsten armor
1x Reflective Cladding

e: 175

DSF Fleet 1
1x Beluga
4x refined Hammerheads

tactics: Beluga stays long ranged and provides speed boost to the Hammerheads along with other bonuses, hammerheads stay together and shoot stuff

Kal'thzar · Jan 26, 2012

Ok I have a fleet put together, and I'll get onto doing some simulations. Probably not tonight (Thursday: D&D night!) so Hopefully tomorrow, or Saturday (g/f going on a day trip).

Symphony D. · Jan 26, 2012

I won't be able to assemble anything before Friday at the earliest, so don't wait on my account.

Kal'thzar · Jan 28, 2012

My Ships:

IPSS MBS Goliath

5 x Burst Drive
1 x Fission Rocket
1 x Recyclers
1 x Supply Section

(MBS: Mobile Supply Base)
ROLE: Mobile Supply, means the carrier isn't performing too many roles, easier to survive a battle!

IPSS ACSC Deliverance

4 x Manifold Drive
8 x Basic Fusion Core
1 x Fission Rocket
1 x Light Sail
20 x External Hangers
1 x Mag Catapult

(ASCS: Advanced Ship Catapult System)
ROLE: Loads of room for transport of ships (indeed I only used like half). When Combat starts gives all ships a huge IP boost, then flees like a little girl.

IPSS Vengeance

3 x Deuterium Drive
1 x Pulse Drive
3 x Computer Module
1 x Scanners
1 x Radiators
2 x Fusion Busters
3 x Manoeuvring Jets
1 x Gas Rockets

Role: Blowing stuff up....with missiles ok dodge, non-zero armour

IPSS Tyr Mk II

4 x Pellet Fusion Core
3 x Deuterium Drive
3 x Computer Module
1 x Scanners
1 x Salt Sinks
5 x Microwave laser (coupled 3x, 2x)
3 x Manoeuvring Jets
1 x Gas Rockets
1 x Plasma Shield
3 x Tungsten Armour
1 x Heavy Cladding

Role: Hitting small particle/Intrusion Ships.

Could probably lose the Dodge stuff (jets+gas rockets), its going to be hit by most things, and this would allow it to pile on more armour and shields.

IPSS Scimitar

1 x Fission Rocket
1 x Deuterium Drive
1 x Pulse Drive
1 x Ion Cannon

Role: Small particle fighter, good dodge, good speed. Intercept and engaging fleeing opponents. Ion cannon allows it to debuff enemies int if required.

IPSS Woden

2 x Fission Rocket
3 x Deuterium Drive
1 x Command Deck
1 x Command Staff
2 x Computer Module
1 x Commlinks
1 x Scanners
1 x Jammers
6 x Interceptors
1 x Gas Rockets
6 x Tungsten Armour
1 x Heavy Cladding

Role: Int Buff and Debuff. Interceptors on the best int machine (plus the speed boost from the carrier means most enemy missiles/interceptors are not going to be fully effective in the first round). Minor EW abilities through the commlink.

FLEET:
IPSS MBS Goliath 1 at 22
IPSS ACSC Deliverance 1 at 110
IPSS Vengence 1 at 112
IPSS Tyr Mk II 1 at 149
IPSS Woden 1 at 103
IPSS Scimitar 3 (refined) at 16 each (+50 for refine)

594 e

Estimated at ~330 m/v (...and I know I can trim some off to actually IMPROVE the fleet as well, so I'm not too concerned).

Doing some battle Calculations.

Symphony D. · Jan 28, 2012

SANDERO DEFENCE FLEET

The Sandero Defence Fleet (SDF) is a modification of the Mondeo Defence Fleet concept, with centralization being further deemphasized. Concentrations of small-ships have been phased out in favor of large quantities of nimble fighters, and a broader range of damage types. EW capabilities have also been distributed, and missile defense platforms attached. The overall focus remains on cheap, expendable platforms fielded in numbers, and on heavy firepower.

Due to the relatively primitive nature of the construction of the SDF, and the numerous units of each type fielded, it is to be assumed that all units have been refined and that the SDF constitutes a relatively standard, standalone exo-atmospheric planetary defense garrison for a median-value target. The SDF has been capped at an arbitrary 600e production cost.

Spoiler Ship List :

Code:

[b]SANDERO DEFENSE FLEET (SDF)[/b]

[b][u]NAME				PRICE	#	COST[/b][/u]
SRE-2 ODP (Refined)		10e	10	100e
LRE-2 ODP (Refined)		14e	6	84e
LRP-1 ODP (Refined)		12e	6	72e
IMD-1 ODP (Refined)		12e	4	48e
IEW-1 ODP (Refined)		19e	2	38e
F-1 Shrike EAF (Refined)	9e	10	90e
F-2 Raven EAF (Refined)		16e	5	80e
F-3 Peregrine EAF (Refined)	22e	4	88e

[b]TOTAL						600/600e[/b]

IEW-1 ODPs are to engage in locking down opponents while LRE-2 and LRP-1 platforms engage in harassing fire. F-1, F-2, and F-3 units are to use their superior mobility to get to the enemy's rear and attempt to push them into range of the SRE-2 ODPs. In particular, the F-1 is designed for general harassment, the F-3 to augment the IEW-1, and the F-2 to nuke low-mobility opponents. IMD-1 ODPs are generally to provide counter-fire against inbound missiles to protect fellow ODPs.

In summary, the ODPs form the anvil, while the EAFs form the evasive hammer.

---

Thoughts:

That's right, 47 units. All hail the swarm.
The ODPs can all move now, albeit only slowly. Still.
Cursory inspection leads me to think standalone IS-capable units aren't worth it at or before TL3.

Questions:

Is it possible to send Metal Capacitor ships to another system using an IS-capable carrier, and have them be operational for one turn without a power plant being built in that system?
If you have commlinks on a ship with high computational power, can its computers be linked with a missile-totting ship in the same way it is for Charm drives? Sort of a "fire control" ship? It would make sense, but it's not clear.
Just a name change suggestion: wouldn't you be using osmium or iridium or depleted uranium or chobham or something equally mundane in the modern world (if you could acquire the first two in any quantities, as you can in space) instead of tungsten for armor? I mean, all of those are more dense and/or more effective and not exactly hard to make or find... certainly not more than a proper carbon-based armor, anyway.

Kal'thzar · Jan 28, 2012

Disenfrancised said:
Order of battle for the balls would be to remain in a single close range instance with each other whilst the batsman safely orbits another planet. When you want to take this show on the road you'd make a mk2 Batsman that's an IS carrier, and make an IS engineering ship that can build bases to charge the balls capacitors.

Can the Batsman really use its jammers around another planet?

Symphony D. scary thing

mhmmm Difficult pretty sure that will destroy my fleet. Only downside to the fleet is its horrendous m/v cost (1061m 280v)! I'll give it a go.

Disenfrancised · Jan 28, 2012

Symphony D. said:
Thoughts:

That's right, 47 units. All hail the swarm.

The ODPs can all move now, albeit only slowly. Still.

Cursory inspection leads me to think standalone IS-capable units aren't worth it at or before TL3.

Questions:

Is it possible to send Metal Capacitor ships to another system using an IS-capable carrier, and have them be operational for one turn without a power plant being built in that system?

If you have commlinks on a ship with high computational power, can its computers be linked with a missile-totting ship in the same way it is for Charm drives? Sort of a "fire control" ship? It would make sense, but it's not clear.

Just a name change suggestion: wouldn't you be using osmium or iridium or depleted uranium or chobham or something equally mundane in the modern world (if you could acquire the first two in any quantities, as you can in space) instead of tungsten for armor? I mean, all of those are more dense and/or more effective and not exactly hard to make or find... certainly not more than a proper carbon-based armor, anyway.

1) Heh
2) Whilst they can move, they are limited to within the Frostline of a system with thermal rockets and solar arrays. Defending gas giants or small red dwarf systems may be tricky.
3) That may indeed be the case - though I really would like some burst drive designs to be viable. Maybe something capable of one-shotting the enemy carrier and running would be a viable single ship IS.
4) For balance reasons I'm going to say no.
5) I think speed of light delays would make this impractical, and the assistance is already being modeled via the fleet init bonus.
6) I choose tungsten because it has the highest melting point and lowest coefficient of thermal expansion (better than Osmium or Iridium) and is only 16% less dense than those two. I only wanted one name for stuff which would effectively be the same thing and liked the sound of Tungsten the best. If you want, you can think of the Tungsten armour as Osmium or Iridium - the combat system is too coarse-grained to show the difference between the three, and "Period-6 Dense Transition Metal Armour" was a bit to much of a mouthful

.

Disenfrancised · Jan 28, 2012

Kal'thzar said:
Can the Batsman really use its jammers around another planet?

No it cannot, the jammers are only for when its been caught, but since its an essential component of the fleet you should model it as if it has been caught like that.

Symphony D. · Jan 28, 2012

Disenfrancised said:
2) Whilst they can move, they are limited to within the Frostline of a system with thermal rockets and solar arrays. Defending gas giants or small red dwarf systems may be tricky.

If you get up to TL4 you can swap out Solars for Plasma Traps and possibly a Thermal for 3 Ion Engines. Power output will suffer, but it's possible. For a small Red Dwarf system, you might just have to do something with Capacitors instead. On the other hand, a lot of what you'd want to spend 600e on is probably below the Frostline, excluding He3 mining.

Very Important Question: when you IS jump to another system, do you have control over where you emerge in system, or not? For example, with the Ball series of ships, if you emerge out-system clearly Solar won't do you any good. Also, if so, how fine is granularity of control? If you can just pop up over a planet, obviously issues arise.

3) That may indeed be the case - though I really would like some burst drive designs to be viable. Maybe something capable of one-shotting the enemy carrier and running would be a viable single ship IS.

Early on I think the only thing capable of doing that kind of guaranteed drive-by shooting are Busters, which might work since an enemy carrier would inevitably have a bad dodge. You'd want to load up on computers and probably then go with a Charm drive instead (plus you can bring along friends), and just staple it to a high IP Speed package to get in and out. Dodge is kinda secondary since you're just hard-burning in and out. Perhaps those friends could act as decoys to cover the escape. Don't think this is quite feasible as I said it (max. IP Speed I could get out of a reasonable platform was 4) but I have an idea.

---

Also, if you build an installation planetside, wouldn't its hit-probability depend mightily on what it is? I'm thinking of the modern day examples of road-mobile ICBMs and SSBNs—submersible or road-mobile to-orbit coilguns (surfacing for the former, likely) also aren't impossible, and both would be difficult to find and kill after launch unless you had total space supremacy and good coverage. Damage might be negligible, but it's worth a thought.

Kal'thzar · Jan 28, 2012

Symphony D. said:
Disenfrancised said:

3) That may indeed be the case - though I really would like some burst drive designs to be viable. Maybe something capable of one-shotting the enemy carrier and running would be a viable single ship IS.

Click to expand...

Early on I think the only thing capable of doing that kind of guaranteed drive-by shooting are Busters, which might work since an enemy carrier would inevitably have a bad dodge. You'd want to load up on computers and probably then go with a Charm drive instead (plus you can bring along friends), and just staple it to a high IP Speed package to get in and out. Dodge is kinda secondary since you're just hard-burning in and out. Perhaps those friends could act as decoys to cover the escape.

Just going to answer this now. Having done some battles: Long Range Particle weapons DESTROY unarmored carriers. Once thats realized you have smaller armored carriers, with some low level of armor. Then you need to use multiple long range lasers to chip away at it (usually effective because its hard to put THAT much armor onto the carrier). I think missiles will tend to be intercepted, but they are also effective. Carriers will also tend to be manifold at the start and hence have lower armor due to that.

Burst is generally good then for Small ships, like my Supply ship. Certainly going to be used for scouts, and the colonization of other systems at the start of the game.

That might my second challenge: Develop a scout/colonization fleet.

EDIT: I might have to break out the Cybernetic bonus to fight you Symphony D.

Disenfrancised · Jan 28, 2012

Symphony D. said:
If you get up to TL4 you can swap out Solars for Plasma Traps and possibly a Thermal for 3 Ion Engines. Power output will suffer, but it's possible. For a small Red Dwarf system, you might just have to do something with Capacitors instead. On the other hand, a lot of what you'd want to spend 600e on is probably below the Frostline, excluding He3 mining.

Well any serious volatiles production is going to probably take place above the frostline - any place warm with enough v is going to be more useful doing other things.

Early on I think the only thing capable of doing that kind of guaranteed drive-by shooting are Busters, which might work since an enemy carrier would inevitably have a bad dodge. You'd want to load up on computers and probably then go with a Charm drive instead (plus you can bring along friends), and just staple it to a high IP Speed package to get in and out. Dodge is kinda secondary since you're just hard-burning in and out. Perhaps those friends could act as decoys to cover the escape. Don't think this is quite feasible, as I said it, but I have an idea.

You could also possibly use a twist drive and seriously overpower a long range laser. Once the carriers dodge drops low enough the long range laser can be quite effective at connecting. With Dodge -4 and comparative int the long range laser autohits. For example this T3 design

SS Giant-Slayer
1 x Twist Drive
17 x Deuterium Drive (Refined)
2 x Computer Module
1 x Scanners
4 x Radiators
2 x Microwave Beamer (Coupled)

226 EM damage will one-shot any carrier with -4 or worse dodge for 128e before it can be slain in return, and with IS 6 and IP4 it will always get somewhere first.

This is actually where very high IS values come in handy - your carrier-slayer will get there first.

Also, if you build an installation planetside, wouldn't its hit-probability depend mightily on what it is? I'm thinking of the modern day examples of road-mobile ICBMs and SSBNs—submersible or road-mobile to-orbit coilguns (surfacing for the former, likely) also aren't impossible, and both would be difficult to find and kill after launch unless you had total space supremacy and good coverage. Damage might be negligible, but it's worth a thought.

That's a good point, but I do choose to do that, mobile antispace operations will better be represented as an army component IMO.

Very Important Question: when you IS jump to another system, do you have control over where you emerge in system, or not? For example, with the Ball series of ships, if you emerge out-system clearly Solar won't do you any good. Also, if so, how fine is granularity of control? If you can just pop up over a planet, obviously issues arise.

You emerge on a line* between your origin star and the destination star. You have control of your position on that line, so that a thermal fleet will obviously arrive close enough to the sun to use those devices, but you have to use IP drives to get to a planet (since even if you manage to match position with a planet, you'll still need to thrust to match orbits). Since the potential appearance zone is a huge and constantly moving area relative to planetary orbits you cannot intercept ships as they emerge.

*Technically a cone based on your position in the origin system, but for all practical purposes its a line.

Matt0088 · Jan 28, 2012

As with Symph's fleet, every designed is refined.

1x MFS Pelican Mk2s for 46e
1x MFS Swallow for 12e
1x MFS Eagle Mk2 for 17e
44x MFS Raven Mk2s for 528e

Total of 603e. For any battle simulation, the Pelican and the Swallow would never travel with the fleet, and should not be included.

MFS Eagle Mk2:
3x Deuterium Drive
1x Pulse Drive
1x Command Deck
1x Computational Module
1x Jammers
1x Scanners
1x Radiators

MFS Raven Mk2:
1x Deuterium Drive
1x Pulse Drive
1x Fusion Buster

Alternatively:

1x MFS Pelican Mk2s for 46e
1x MFS Swallow for 12e
1x MFS Eagle Mk2 for 17e
50x MFS Crows for 500e

MFS Crow:
1x Deuterium Drive
1x Pulse Drive
1x Fission Buster

For a total 575e. Limited by the total carrying capacity of the Pelican, which at 546, is carrying 540 size worth of ships currently.

Symphony D. · Jan 28, 2012

COMPTON AGGRESSOR FLEET

Compton Aggressor Fleet (CAF) is a team of highly experimental ships designed to do maximum damage to a given target vessel in hit and run, seek and destroy operations.

Spoiler Ship List :

Code:

[b]COMPTON AGGRESSOR FLEET (CAF)[/b]

[b][u]NAME				PRICE	#	COST[/b][/u]
Inquisitor			106e	1	106e
Dispatcher			103e	1	103e
Blaster				89e	4	356e

[b]TOTAL						565/600e[/b]

Theoretically the Blasters will be able to achieve a maximum IP Speed of 9*, with an Initiative of 8, with the Inquisitor and Dispatcher remaining at a safe distance. The objective is to appear sufficiently far away that the latter two are protected, while the former utilize their ridiculous speed to nuke a high-value target and then escape pursuers.

Only workable below the Frostline, of course. Could probably strip out EW gear and get the Inquisitor and Dispatcher down in costs to fit a 5th Blaster, but I doubt it would make much of a difference.

* If the mirror bonus straight stacks; considering they're relatively light, I see no reason why it wouldn't.

---

I like the idea of Matt's fleet, though given the to-hit penalties to nukes I have a feeling it'll only be really good at swarming larger vessels.

A Laser/Twist EM design is probably more effective standalone, and probably does better than the weird team of the CAF. It never really occurred to me to put that many drives on a single ship; you need CON4 to build it, though.

Thlayli · Jan 28, 2012

Matt, it's imbalanced if you're refining your designs and pitting them against unrefined fleets. Also, Symph's fleets have unrefined and refined costs and use the unrefined costs in the calculations.

Also, I hate to be that guy, but shouldn't fleet upkeep cost something?

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