Progenitor Civs (Revisited)

[Hydromancerx]

The old Progenitor Civs topic got closed, but AAranda is offering to help with making new civs. Which is the perfect chance to revisit the Progenitor Civs stuff. Here is what Praetyre had in mind ...

Many have previously raised the conundrum that the culture system of C2C provides in regards to starting civs. Newbies are confused over why playing as Rome doesn't give them Roman Culture right off the bat, and some in the team have proposed renaming the available civilizations so that they have no cultural associations whatsoever, such as colour coding or numbering them. I have an altogether different and more moderate, yet more radical proposal; one which will alter the very way people think of civilizations.

I propose that, to begin with, the only available civilizations listed in the Civilopedia and available at a Prehistoric start (Advanced Start should be altered to enable adoption of culture in later eras) are those civilizations and cultures which have no known antecedents or predecessors, which I will for convenience sake refer to as Progenitor Civs. These civs would be as follows;
Austronesians
Balangod
Clovis
Han
Indus
Jeulmun
Nubians
Polynesians
Pre Jomon
Proto Indo Europeans
Semites
Xiongnu
Zayandeh

Every single culture, aside from a few "isolates" like the Pre-Jomon or Zayandeh, would be part of a complex cultural "tech tree" where, in addition to all the normal requirements cultures already have, the prerequisite culture would have to be present to create that culture. When Cultural Identity is discovered, the player can opt to pick his culture much like his religion, with corresponding changes to artstyle (be it in the interface, units or cities; all the usual trappings that distinguish individual civilizations) and as a result gain access to that culture's unique units and buildings. If that culture becomes extinct (none of the player's cities have any access to it's resource), the player will automatically revert to whatever culture is the next oldest and next largest, and should any culture grow to outnumber the player's parent culture, he will have the option to convert to that culture (think Aboriginal settlements turning into Australian cities, or Celtic villages into Viking ones, and so on), with corresponding changes.

This may sound like an impossible undertaking (then again, if 4 maps are possible...), but there is precedent for it in the Rise from Erebus modmod for Fall from Heaven II; conversion between religions enables a totally different interface and music set. I don't imagine swapping unit and citystyles in this way would be too much of a stretch. A good future goal would be to differentiate each city culturally, so that a majority-Indian city conquered by the British still looks Indian and that units recruited there look like they are from the Subcontinent, not the British Isles.

For an example of this cultural chain mechanism, consider the Proto Indo European culture/civ; under my plan, it can branch off into Armenian, Beaker, Corded Ware, Etruscan, Hittite, Iberian, Mycenaean, and Nordic cultures.

The Beaker culture in turn can branch off into Brigante, Gaulish, Lusitanian, Pictish and Welsh cultures. Gaulish can then branch off into English culture, while Lusitanian can branch off into Brasilian culture.

Nordic culture, meanwhile, can branch off into Sweboz culture, which in turn can branch off into Austrian, Dutch, Gothic, Holy Roman and Swiss cultures. The Dutch themselves can branch off into Boer culture.

Etruscan culture can branch off into Byzantine culture. Lastly thus far for the descendants of the Proto-Indo-Europeans, Corded Ware culture can branch off into Lusatian and Magyar cultures.

A chart illustrating the relationships between these cultures (those that have thus far been implemented in the game, and a few hypothetical extras I can see being included in the near future) can be found here, in this Google Document.

You may have noticed that many of these cultures possess decidedly esoteric, archaic and abstract names. Well fear not, because these names shall not forever be affixed to your mighty civilization; over time (by era), these names will automatically be altered to different ones in accordance with the historical period. Thus, the Pre Jomon turn into the Jomon come the Ancient age, then in Classical become the Yayoi, then the Asuka in Medieval, the Edo in Renaissance, the Meiji in Industrial then finally, at the dawn of the Modern age, the Japanese. This would be a cosmetic feature that would seek to inject a greater deal of atmosphere and alienness to the historical (or alternate-historical!) periods that C2C aims to recreate. A chart illustrating these evolutions can be found in this Google Document.

As a consequence of this plan, Revolutions would no longer cause an entirely new civilization to form seperate from it's parent in all cosmetic respects; instead, Revolutions would spawn off a new civ whose name and leadername would be randomly selected from a predetermined list assigned by culture. Thus, the revolt of an Arab city may lead to the formation of the [insert DynamicCivName title here, I'm hoping for full integration] of Syria, led by Edward Said. A very much WIP list of such cultures and their combos can be found in this Google Document.

This is obviously very theoretical at the moment, and I think it will take a long time to fully iron out the inconsistencies and potential glitches in my proposed system, especially with so many new cultures on their way. Feel free to offer your own thoughts as to the ramifications and benefits of this system, and how you think it could be improved or implemented.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Here is more stuff from Fabula Terra which is along the same idea.

Here is a question I would like to know the answer to.

How many people would rather play an alternative history for the Americas versus a historical game.

For example for AH I am thinking the Aztecs are around at the same time of the Romans.

Tehuacan--------------------------Neolithic Central America
----San Lorenzo(Olmec)----------------Copper Mesoamerica
--------Tres Zapotes(Olmec)---------------Bronze Mesoamerica
------------Tula(Toltec)-----------------------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------Tzintzuntzan(Tarascans)-----------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Tenochtitlan(Aztec)----------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
------------Teotihuacan-----------------------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------El Tajin(Totonac)------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Cholua----------------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
--------Kaminaljuyu(Maya)-----------------Bronze Mesoamerica
------------San Jose Mogote(Zapotec)---------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------Tilantongo(Mixtec)-----------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Monte Alban(Zapotec)--------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
------------Tikal(Maya)------------------------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------Mayapan(Maya)--------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Tayasal(Maya)---------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica

Why I am thinking alternate history is for balance as well. Stone Age civilizations would not be progress as far on techs. If more people prefer to have the Aztecs appear in 14th century right before European exploration I need to know. Well please let me know and if anyone has any better suggestions on the civilizations I would be happy to change them.

P.S. I plan to change the era names in the future, but the real era value in the game would correspond to the names I have here. I mean based on the current proposed eras anyway.

Well I will explain what my initial thinking is and perhaps it is flawed. I was hoping to balance clearly strong nations in each region. Then later try to find uniqueness.

1. West Europe
France,England,Spain,Portugal for example

2. Central Europe
Germany,Rome, Scandinavia, Greece(maybe should be East)

3. East Europe
Poland, Russia(could be many forms of Russia), and in general Slavic countries

4. North Africa
Carthage, Berbers, Egypt, and anything in on the Northern Coast

5. East Africa
Ethiopia, Horn of Africa, and anything south on the eastern side of the continent

6. West Africa
Niger river area. Mali, Songhai, Ghana, and anything south along the coast to the present border of Namibia and South Africa.

7. Middle East
Levant, Fertile Crescent, Anatolia, from Black Sea and Caucasus mountains on the north, Aegean Sea and Africa on the West, Persia being outside of it on the East.

8. Central Asia
Persia to Kazakhstan. Anything that was inhabited by Iranian languages speakers at one point.

9. South Asia
The Indian Subcontinent, and areas that were effected by the Indian culture.

10. East Asia
Southeast Asia and China(excluding Mongolian majority areas and Manchuria)

11. North Asia
Siberia, Mongolia, Manchuria, Korea, and Japan

12. Oceania
Australia, New Guinea, and Pacific Islands. This is really going to be weak in comparison.

13. West North America
Western cultures as in the Southwest USA, Northwest USA and Western Canada, Californian tribes, and Western Arctic North America.

14 East North America
Mound builders later Southeast USA Natives, Iroquois, Cherokee, Sioux(could possibly go to the West), Eastern Arctic North America

15. Mesoamerica
Mexico, Central America, and include the Caribbean.

16. South America
Andean cultures, and needing to guess on some Eastern South American cultures.

Well that is the general idea I had. It may be a bad balance. The one really weak region is Oceania. The tech trees though would be a little more perhaps to make differences in West, Central, and East Europe because of being artificially placed. If this is not interesting please tell me.

After a little more thought we could make some of them sub-regions. This is closer now I think for technology advancement in around 0 AD.

West Europe(The successful colonies of Rome and Celtic held areas)
------Northwest Europe
-----------Netherlands, Northern France(modern France later in game) and Britain
------Southwest Europe
-----------Iberia, Southern France

North Europe(The classic idea of the area of Barbarians against Rome)
------Northcentral Europe
-----------Scandinavia, Poland and Germany
------Northeast Europe
-----------North Russia(modern Russia later in game), Finland, Baltic States

South Europe(Classical idea of Rome and Greek civilization)
------SouthCentral Europe
-----------Italy, former Yugoslavia minus Macedonia, Albania
------Southeast Europe
----------Greece, Romania, Ukraine, Bulgaria, South Russia, Macedonia

I rearranged the the sub-regions now for similar technology advancement.

I want sub-regions anyway, but for advancement in time there would be a big difference obviously between Rome, the Germanic/Slavic tribes, and the Celtic areas(later under control of Rome). That is what I am thinking anyway on the tech tree.

I think we should just raise the Civ limit to 32. So that each sub-region can come in play. So we can do a WWI time frame, but SouthCentral would need to be Austria-Hungary or either Italy. If we are going to a more accurate WWI scenario then we would just have a scenario that is much more accurate which we can do as special case on the side.

Since the Europe regional debate proved fruitful.....

Does anyone want to focus on Asia now?

My original idea is...



Central Asia
-------North
------------Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan
-------South
------------Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan

South Asia
-------West
------------West India, Tibet, Nepal
-------East
------------East India, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, maybe some of Indonesia

East Asia
-------North
------------Modern China minus Nei Mongol, Liaoning, Jilin, Heilongjiang, Tibet(Xizang)

-------South
------------Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia. Philippines, maybe some of Indonesia

North Asia
------West
-----------Mongolia, Nei Mongol(China), West Siberia
------East
-----------Korea, Japan, Liaoning(China), Jilin(China), Heilongjiang(China), East Siberia

Again please correct me if I am really screwing this up. I am open to modify anyway that helps. The main regional powers I am thinking....

Central Asia is Iran, South Asia is India, East Asia is China, and North Asia is Japan.

Indonesia I am debating putting in Oceania or not. It is not the classic idea of Oceania, but it might give more possibilities in Oceania.

No one has any input on Asia? Can someone tell me it is ok?

I may color a map to help if it is needed.

I know for other powers in the area to make it clearer I will give a list.

Central Asia
-------North
------------Scythians
-------South
------------Iran(or in the West called Persia)

South Asia(I need to change this somehow probably)
-------West(Aryan conquered areas)
------------Mauryan
-------East(Non Aryan conquered Aryan areas in the beginning)
------------Something like Vijayanagara Empire( South and East India)

East Asia
-------North
------------China
-------South
------------Khmer

North Asia
------West
-----------Mongolia
------East
-----------Korea and Japan

Anyway I need to think about South Asia more, and I am open to suggestions.

Indonesia can be part of Oceania. The most important island in it is going to be Java I think regardless. That might then give something for the West Oceania for civs. I would not break down any region though into 3 to begin with IMO. If 3 it will just make it harder to find civs I think for each sub-region.

How about Indonesia, New Guinea, and Australia in the West Oceania? And the rest of Oceania being the East. New Zealand and Hawaii in the East for example.

The Middle East I think we should stick with 2 sub-regions. The map is never going to be large enough I think to display more than 2 civs and have city-states in the Middle East when displaying the whole world. If it can get larger through time and start with just the area around you it makes sense to have more.

The other thing I need to explain is with these regions. The sub-regions are just step one. After that they expand into 2 more possibilities. For example....

Middle East
------North---One civilization from this area and multiple city-states
-----------West
-----------East
------South---One civilization from this area and multiple city-states
-----------North
-----------South

There will be more options I mean available. This is just for the beginning, but I am thinking only the sub-regions have one civilization. So if you play the Canaanites for example you would have Assur as a city state. So if it sounds bad maybe we should make more sub-regions, but too many crowded together will be bad I think.

Now as for separate scenarios with a bigger map of an area then we are talking about something else. Of course we should have more civs in play if we had a map of the Middle East. Well just let me know.

Ok now I looked a little bit more....(these name for metal eras are just to understand the time we will need to make new names for the eras in each region)

I know this is not perfect but I would like to hear your opinion.

----Copper--Humaitá(East South America)
--------Bronze--Umbu(Coastal)
------------Iron--Tupi-guarani(North)
------------Iron--Itararé(South)
--------Bronze--Ananatuba(Amazon)
------------Iron--Kuhikugu(Upper)
------------Iron--Marajoara(Lower)

Now for later groups we could start adding the colonial era into these regions perhaps. Anyway tell me if it sounds bad.

P.S. It might be better to have a different name for Tupi-guarani and then later have the Tupi and Guarani appear in the next era. If you can find some name that represents the culture for the North Coastal regions it would help. Thanks again.

These links might help. Just needed I guess some words to get a good search.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/sociology/rsw/undergrad/cetl/ejournal/issues/volume3issue1/riris/

http://books.google.com/books?id=59...#v=onepage&q=prehistory of the pampas&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=O3...CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Parana-Pampean&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=yZ...onepage&q=prehistory pampas argentina&f=false

----Copper--Humaitá(East South America)
--------Bronze--Umbu(Coastal)
------------Iron--Tupi-guarani(North)
----------------Antiquity--Tupi
----------------Antiquity--Mbaya-Guaicurus
------------Iron--Taquara/Itararé(South)
----------------Antiquity--Mapuche
----------------Antiquity--Toba
--------Bronze--Ananatuba(Amazon)
------------Iron--Kuhikugu(Upper)
----------------Antiquity--???
----------------Antiquity--???
------------Iron--Marajoara(Lower)
----------------Antiquity--???
----------------Antiquity--???

Well let me know what you think. The Taquara/Itararé culture is usually now associated with the Jê if I understand correctly.

Edit: Changed Botocudo to Toba

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Do we really need them? We have one each for the regions and you can have many civs using the same nation in game. IE you can play a game where all 39 civs are Egypt!

What is more interesting is how we evolve these through the game.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Whatever. I am personally happy with my culture wonder/resouce system and don't care if all civs were generic or progenitor or what we have now.

Do you think AAranda is better off being assigned Civs we don't have than working on this? Cause he offered help and I want to have him do something.

 

[AAranda]

Hello guys, glad to be back and changing impressions with old friends again

I´ve been reading those civs post and I think that the idea about progenitors civs evolving into all the other civs in History is FANTASTIC ... but ... sorry, IMHO, very difficult to do and, worst of all, almost umbearable for the turns gamespeed, wich is not good at the moment

I sugest the idea i had in mind for RoM all those years ago, just to offer another point of view if you are not yet decided: the idea was somekind of inclusive historical civs, based on historical atlas and geographical spots for differents civs

This way, per example, Aztec civ will have its UU and UB, also heroes or wathever, and Mexican civ will have its own and also the aztecs ones, marking a continium in historical time ... I realize that this and the progenitors are quite similar ideas, but this way you avoid SDK, phyton and, more than anythin, the ingame delay it means

 

[GiuseppeIII]

I really love the Progenitor Civs idea. Praetyre's idea has me very intrigued. If anybody does decide to this it would be really amazing if they could add in alt-history cultures too seeing as a civ game is usually not a very historically accurate one.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sigh...

This is pushing my timetable a bit but yes. I want to do this. Bigtime!

Ok, so the plan in steps as I see it:

1. Make sure we have a culture for every civilization and a civilization for every culture. (I REALLY wish we would include Neanderthals in this!)
   
   
2. Develop a wide array of Prehistoric civilizations/cultures. Not sure that we have enough if we're just trying to base them on continental zones alone so some good brainstorming along the lines of that first post seems appropriate. We should, however, make equal amounts that fall under each of those zones.
   
   
3. Make sure we have a UnitCombat developed for each culture - we'll need that! I've done all I know of.
   
   
4. Make a Civic category and a Civic for every culture.
   
   
5. All civilizations must be tagged to their equivalent culture - some dll and xml work but easy.
   
   
6. Limit civilization selections (at the beginning of the game) to the civilizations that apply to the starting era.
   
   
7. Make it possible to adopt a culture beyond the original civilization. Extreme anarchy period for switching. Each culture can adopt its own 'trait profile' here - don't make them all the same or the AI won't have much reason to switch. More advanced ones would be improved versions. We'd need to have a civic prerequisite of ... I think perhaps the culture 'resource' might be the best way to develop that.
   
   
8. I base the flag and other Civilization specific details that the player compiles into it's game details on the civilization attached to the culture which has been adopted as a civic. Re-pointing where these details come from shouldn't be too entirely difficult. We need the civilization defined so that unit artstyles can be redirected as well.

Another consideration becomes the Leader - which at this point will stay the leader the civ has selected from the beginning. But eventually I was planning on integrating the Leaders as Units mod and blending that with Developing Leaders (which hasn't even begun to be fully developed itself yet.)

I'll also need to limit the civilizations that rev and barb emerging civs can select from to civilizations that are era appropriate - and without any transhuman, galactic or future era civilizations being currently defined that could be a problem so it might be beneficial to develop a wide selection of those too. Could be fun!


On the positive side, working on this probably wouldn't take a whole lot of effort on my part considering that the AI will really run itself entirely on the civic selection mechanism. Quite easy really. It's all the little balance points that come up once we've implemented it and cracked open the can of worms that I worry a little about. Otherwise... this is pretty easy stuff on my end. A few tags and informational redirectings is all. The main thing I'd need to figure out (and maybe a better coder like AIAndy could figure it out) would be the part where we limit the civilization starting selections to the era of the civilization (a tag to define the era for each civilization would not be difficult - but manipulating the selection lists at the beginning could be a trick - still... crafting selection options at that setup screen can be done for Unrestricted Leaders so unless Unrestricted Leaders is entirely programmed in the EXE, it SHOULD be doable.)

This would be a good side project and I'd base my needed contributions on you guys - when you request a step be done I'll make it my next task.

Obviously this is for next cycle, NOT pre-release!

I was also kinda hoping to see AIAndy's planned 2D Trait mechanism in place first so we could have a more interesting mechanism for determining the strength of cultures in a region so that we could enforce a particular % of national level culture influence be present for the adoptable culture(s) to become available. I also wanted to create some modifiers for cities that would be based on the discord or harmony between the national culture and primary local culture. We COULD get into all that AFTER we develop the basic part of this mod though.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Make sure we have a culture for every civilization and a civilization for every culture. (I REALLY wish we would include Neanderthals in this!)

This would be a good idea either way.

@AAranda

Could you please try to make a Neanderthal civ?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Oh... @Aaranda: Dude... welcome back! You may not realize this but you were a MAJOR reason this mod took place at all I think. Converting your works to AND was a big first step that brought C2C to form! I'm personally honored you'd want to join us in further development.

 

[AAranda]

This would be a good idea either way.

@AAranda

Could you please try to make a Neanderthal civ?

No problem, but i´ve some problems with c2c.
It takes 7 minutes just to load, and about 1 minute to end a turn in the very beginning ... so i don´t see how civs works exactly in this mod. Is it needed to research a culture tech before building up UUs?

Talking about Neanderthals, i suggest:

UU: Traveller in place of Wanderer, 3 strength (was1), 2 moves (was1), 100% Vs animals
Neanderthals were far more strong and endurable fisically than our specie

UB: Fire place replacing Fire pit, 1 health and 3 culture (was1)
Neanderthal were also more sociable and cooperative than cromagnon

LEADER: Wrub, have to look c2c traits, but something lazy in negative and some trait with culture and other with health in positive

HEROES: Ulfr, using traveller as base, improving strength to 4

 

[AAranda]

Oh... @Aaranda: Dude... welcome back! You may not realize this but you were a MAJOR reason this mod took place at all I think. Converting your works to AND was a big first step that brought C2C to form! I'm personally honored you'd want to join us in further development.

Thanks man, you cheer up my day ... even when I dont´deserve the compliment

 

[Hydromancerx]

No problem, but i´ve some problems with c2c.
It takes 7 minutes just to load, and about 1 minute to end a turn in the very beginning ... so i don´t see how civs works exactly in this mod. Is it needed to research a culture tech before building up UUs?

Talking about Neanderthals, i suggest:

UU: Traveller in place of Wanderer, 3 strength (was1), 2 moves (was1), 100% Vs animals
Neanderthals were far more strong and endurable fisically than our specie

UB: Fire place replacing Fire pit, 1 health and 3 culture (was1)
Neanderthal were also more sociable and cooperative than cromagnon

LEADER: Wrub, have to look c2c traits, but something lazy in negative and some trait with culture and other with health in positive

HEROES: Ulfr, using traveller as base, improving strength to 4

Ok so C2C is WAY diffrent from other mods. All UU, UB and Heroes are linked to Culture wonders which produce culture resources.

This means that all playable civs are only left with Leaderheads and regional cultures.

We currently already have a UU and UB for the Neanderthals so you don't have to worry about that. You just need to worry about the Leaderhead and the art styles and unit flavors.

In other words what your civ will look like and sound like. And what the cities will be named.

Since Neanderthal's mainly come from Europe you would also get the regional culture of European. Which means their UB would be Native Culture (European).

 

[Raven Destroyer]

C2C is the Type of mod, Step off the train for even 6 months, and when you try to Reboard the train you will have to do your research on What changed because Someone would have made Something completely New up a Lot of the things i got told where Impossible is here the daily cakewalk,
and i know for someone that is booting up the mod for the first time it will be fairly confusing at first but like that favorite pair of shoes you've had for Years, over the years you got it the finer you got to walk in it

and i cannot wait to see what will roll out of these Culture ideas

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

You(Hydro) and the C2C are modding geniuses...

Very impressed with what you have come up with here. If you need help with any soundtrack related things let me know.

 

[Acularius]

I am happy to see this resurge!

Maybe it can be used in conjunction with the 'Developing Leaders' option.
(Which to be honest, I just love using. Creating my own tailored leader as the game progresses.)

 

[Nor'easter]

Whatever. I am personally happy with my culture wonder/resouce system and don't care if all civs were generic or progenitor or what we have now.

I'm happy with the current system as well, it's a nice variation of the "create your own civilization" idea. It does seem to confuse newer players, though, so perhaps the team might take another look at the 'pedia to see if the current system might be better explained?

For players who *really* want to play as a specific civ -- which I generally don't, unless I'm playing a historical mod like RFC or a historical scenario like Earth 1000 AD -- would it be possible to add a game option where the civ's palace gives the the associated culture? You could call it something like "start with national culture."

One quick comment on the Neanderthals: it might be easiest to simply allow Neanderthal Warriors to upgrade the way other cultural UUs do. I guess they would initially upgrade to other melee units, then eventually the late-game gunpowder stuff. Maybe have them start with a "Neanderthal" promotion, available only to melee units, giving them something like +10% strength.

Just a few thoughts. Still a fun mod, whichever way you guys decide to go.

 

[Raven Destroyer]

I just Pick the Armenian Civ because i want to be called that way ingame, but for the rest it doesn't matter to me much

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

We currently have the Nationality bar for a city which tells you the percentage of the people in the city that consider themselves part of your nation. The entertainer line actions for entertaining city also increase the percentage of people that consider themselves part of your nation. Too low a percentage and the city may want to leave your nation.

What is also needed is another bar that indicates the percentage of the people in the city of each culture in that city. When the majority of cities have a majority of citizens claiming to be of the same culture then you should be able to change to that culture with a minimum of anarchy.

edit Don't forget we will also have Indigenous People from WLBO as soon as I make a property for influencing them and a National Adviser screen for interactions and National level stuff like the World Views we currently have.

 

[Thunderbrd]

We currently have the Nationality bar for a city which tells you the percentage of the people in the city that consider themselves part of your nation. The entertainer line actions for entertaining city also increase the percentage of people that consider themselves part of your nation. Too low a percentage and the city may want to leave your nation.

What is also needed is another bar that indicates the percentage of the people in the city of each culture in that city. When the majority of cities have a majority of citizens claiming to be of the same culture then you should be able to change to that culture with a minimum of anarchy.

That's basically what the 2D Property Mechanism we were discussing with AIAndy would be about but it would be generic enough to enable other similar dynamics such as with religion as well.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

dang, I just edited my post to remind about Indigenous People - they could be a source of cultures also.

there is already a religion spread and influence percentage in cities. We don't display or do anything with the latter.