Proposed Policy Change - the Modiquette

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

embryo, my comment was directed at this:

This discussion is very much about Civilization, and I'm sure all versions have similar language. Note that this site is Civilization Fanatics Center. Now, you might be right if all you're doing is making models that are 100% independent of civ4, but the nanosecond your files meet the game files in any way, 2K owns it. Note that EULAs have the force of law in the US and that this site is based in the US

Both Kyriakos and I do not use copyrighted third-party content or models created by Firaxis. Therefore the EULA technically does not apply to us as whatever content we've been creating beyond our pixel-editing days is purely our own. Although I have no real interest in restricting access to my content, I DO agree with Kyriakos that the existent system is fine the way it is and the "Modiquette" should remain only a guideline and not an enforceable policy.

 

[Padjur]

Your Variations: (i) must only work with the full, registered copy of the Software;

hard to argue that it can't be able to be played on a cracked copy, would it not mean, not a stand alone game that can be played without the full, registered copy of the Software being installed and the mod being placed within that structure.

So my point is that getting EULAs as a basis for anything is silly and impractical, because most (or indeed all) mods on this site break them, and if they were enforced, modding wouldn't exist as a phenomenon. EULA is there as a safety measure (in this case, to put the responsibility of copyright infringement on the modder, rather than the company), rather than something to be enforced top-down and used as a basis for any modding policy on CFC.

The EULA is also about rights and who owns them, now 2K seem happy enough at the moment but how far will the modders claim of ownership be allowed to go do you think?
And whats more to the point, are the claims of ownership and rights not just following the latest trend in Digital Rights Management and what place does such a thing have in a modding community which thrives on sharing.
Cannot mutual respect and cooperation be a policy instead. I respect a composers rights to his music I respect the work that has gone in to making a mod and we should ask permission and it should granted
because what possible reason would they have to say no, unless it is those laid out in the EULA?

 

[embryodead]

Both Kyriakos and I do not use copyrighted third-party content or models created by Firaxis. Therefore the EULA technically does not apply to us as whatever content we've been creating beyond our pixel-editing days is purely our own. Although I have no real interest in restricting access to my content, I DO agree with Kyriakos that the existent system is fine the way it is and the "Modiquette" should remain only a guideline and not an enforceable policy.

I agreed with that part that it does not apply to Kyriakos' (or your) creations for the reasons you mentioned. But the quoted comment is correct as well - unless these creations are released into public domain, they cannot be used in any Civilization mods. I'm not really arguing with you, just trying to show that EULAs, legally binding or not, cannot be treated as a basis for any discussions about modding policy, or you'll arrive at a conclusion that virtually no modding as we know it is permitted.

EDIT: Also, to clear one thing up, 2K can't automatically own something included in a mod if it's copyrighted, even by a modder. It's a breach of EULA on the modder's part to include such material, but it does not become 2K's.

 

[Kyriakos]

Lets not forget that most files released for civIII or civIV are not in any way working only in those games. In the case of civIII they are 2d renders, usable in any game with a 2d environment and graphic support. In the case of civIV they are 3d models, usable in any game at all, be it as a 3d object or 2d render of it.
So it is entirely false to claim that the games, civIII or civIV contribute in any way to the usability of those graphics. This is not a case of a game that has a special engine which only works with editing through it (as i think they tried to do with civV). So your argument about mods, Mods, again is very false and possibly even suspect.

 

[Jorsalfare]

Both Kyriakos and I do not use copyrighted third-party content or models created by Firaxis. Therefore the EULA technically does not apply to us as whatever content we've been creating beyond our pixel-editing days is purely our own.

I fully agree. Firaxis/Atari/2k cannot take ownership over other people's creations just because they happens to be in a format that the Civ3 game engine can use. Any EULA making such claims are utterly unreasonable and should threfore be considered invalid. This is snipped from the EULA that came with Civ3 Conquest:

"MISCELLANEOUS
If any provision or portion of this EULA is found to be unlawful, void, or for any reason unenforceable, it will be severed from and in no way affect the validity or enforceability of the remaining provisions of the EULA."

Firaxis is not the owner of the formats .pcx, .ini, .flc, .wav, .jpg and so on, and even if they were, they couldn't claim ownership over material in that format - only license/royalties for use of the format. They can therefore only claim ownership if the work is modified original Firaxis material. Most Civ3 artists' work are made from scratch, and are therefore not the property of Firaxis. Nor does uploading it to CFC make it the property of Firaxis (at least as far as I know).

I believe in sharing, but I think it's only fair to allow creators to choose a license they feel comfortable with. Without people creating things there would be no mods - and probably less actvity here in CFC. This is NOT a direction I like, and I don't think it is wise to hurry this to "wrap it up before christmas".

@deanej:
I have never heard before that you have to inform the US Congress (library) to make it possible to get copyright on intellectual property. Are you sure you're not confusing copyright and patent? In my part of the free world, you - by default - own the exclusive right to any photo/essay/artwork you make - no need to inform the authorities or to register it anywhere.

 

[Takhisis]

And why should the US Congress be notified of copyrights held in other countries?

 

[embryodead]

In all countries belonging to WTO, US included, copyright is automatic. No need to inform any congress.

 

[Monaldinio]

sorry For writing in German, but my english is awful ...and to explain myself in the best Way, i Must Do that in my Language. Maybe someone can translate...if he / she is Interessted in Law...
I recommend to leave this topic Law...

1.) rechtliche Situation

Zunächst einmal sollte man erwähnen, das in diesen Fall, sowohl anglo-amerikanischen recht, als auch europäischen schutzrecht bzw Urheberrecht zur Anwendung kommen kann.

(Der Wesentliche unterschied zwischen amerikanischen Urheberrecht und europäischen Urheberrecht besteht darin, und dies ist entscheident, das dass europäischen Urheberrecht den Urheber als Schöpfer und seine ideelle Beziehung zum Werk in den Mittelpunkt stellt, so betont das amerikanische Copyright den ökonomischen Aspekt.
Im Urheberrecht des amerikanischen Rechtssystems werden im Gegensatz zum kontinentaleuropäischen Urheberrecht die Entscheidungs- und Verwertungsrechte über ein Werk oft nicht dem Urheber (beispielsweise dem Künstler) zugestanden, sondern den wirtschaftlichen Rechteverwertern, zum Beispiel dem Verlag. Der Urheber behhält dann eingeschränkte Veto-rechte.)

2.) welches recht kommt zur Anwendung

Dies ist abhängig vom "Ort der Gerichtsbarkeit"!
Fallbeispiel: sollte kyriakos der Meinung sein das seine rechte als Urheber verletzt worden sind (der Urheber ist laut Urheberrechtsgesetz, ist es ein Mensch, der ein Werk geschaffen hat, insbesondere auf dem Gebiet der Literatur, Kunst, Musik oder Wissenschaft, die eine geistige persönliche Schöpfung darstellen, und die sinnlich wahrnehmbar sind.)
, könnte er Klage gegen jene Verletzung einreichen! Dies wird er, wenn er anwaltlich gut beraten wird, indem rechtsgebiet tun das für seine Belange die besseren Voraussetzungen bietet, in diesen fall trifft das auf das europäische rechtsgebiet zu!
Sollte er es wirklich auf eine rechtliche Auseinandersetzung ankommen lassen, wird er mit 99% Sichheit durch die oben genannten Gründe gewinnen.
Es fragt sich nur ob sich der Aufwand lohnt, meist wird in solchen Fällen eine außergerichtliche Einigung angestrebt.

3.Eigentumsübergang

Es wurde hier kurz angerissen, das sobald Urhebergeschütztes Material auf Inhalt trifft, dessen rechte Firaxis hält, und erstgenannte mit diesen Inhalt interagieren, jener automatisch in das Eigentum von Firaxis (Urheberrechtlich schützenswertes Eigentum) übergeht. Dies ist natürlich nicht der fall! Der der zuerstgenannte Inhalt (Material) in sich geschlossen ist, und keine weiteren mittel braucht, um als Kunstwerk zu funktionieren! Ein Bild ist ein Bild, und die rechte an diesen liegen allein beim Künstler.

. I have never heard before that you have to inform the US Congress (library) to make it possible to get copyright on intellectual property. Are you sure you're not confusing copyright and patent? In my part of the free world, you - by default - own the exclusive right to any photo/essay/artwork you make - no need to inform the authorities or to register it anywhere.

You are right!

 

[deanej]

embryo, my comment was directed at this:


Both Kyriakos and I do not use copyrighted third-party content or models created by Firaxis. Therefore the EULA technically does not apply to us as whatever content we've been creating beyond our pixel-editing days is purely our own. Although I have no real interest in restricting access to my content, I DO agree with Kyriakos that the existent system is fine the way it is and the "Modiquette" should remain only a guideline and not an enforceable policy.

Are you doing models only? Then I agree, and said so in my earlier post. However, I take the EULA to not just referred to art and music, but to any file that needs to be changed to get the model in the game, including the editor, XML, Lua, etc.

I have never heard before that you have to inform the US Congress (library) to make it possible to get copyright on intellectual property. Are you sure you're not confusing copyright and patent? In my part of the free world, you - by default - own the exclusive right to any photo/essay/artwork you make - no need to inform the authorities or to register it anywhere.

Tell that to the Library of Congress. I heard them say that on a tour.

 

[embryodead]

Tell that to the Library of Congress. I heard them say that on a tour.

Well, you can inform them, but you don't have to.

From the US Copyright Office, part of the Library of Congress:

When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.”

 

[Gary Childress]

It sounds to me that once a file is created that will work in the game, at that point the author relinquishes all rights to that file and the file is free to use by others in the game pretty much as they please (credit given or not). If that is what is implied by the EULA then it is probably futile to argue against it.

In that sense the modiquette is just a form of etiquette. It's not mandatory, just a way to be polite about things.

If that is indeed the case, then that would pretty much end the dabate I would think.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Are you doing models only? Then I agree, and said so in my earlier post. However, I take the EULA to not just referred to art and music, but to any file that needs to be changed to get the model in the game, including the editor, XML, Lua, etc.

Civ3's graphics system does not work the same way as Civ4. You're still confusing the way the two operate. With Civ3, it is simply a matter of substitution of graphic files. As far as I'm concerned, Firaxis does not have any monopoly on files with .pcx extensions.

The EULA itself is self-contradictory and self-defeating and it is rather impractical to base everything on its stipulations as has been mentioned.

Tell that to the Library of Congress. I heard them say that on a tour.

No offense, but a "tour" is hardly a source of definitive information.

 

[raystuttgart]

It sounds to me that once a file is created that will work in the game, at that point the author relinquishes all rights to that file and the file is free to use by others in the game pretty much as they please (credit given or not). If that is what is implied by the EULA then it is probably futile to argue against it.

In that sense the modiquette is just a form of etiquette. It's not mandatory, just a way to be polite about things.

If that is indeed the case, then that would pretty much end the dabate I would think.

Sorry, but that is non-sense.
(Not meant personal.)

MP3s work in the game as soundtrack / music.
Should every MP3 suddenly belong to Firaxis / K2 ?

NIF is a format that is used in Morrowind and many other games as well.
Do all the NIF files of these games suddenly belong to Firaxis / K2 ?

DDS is a image format that is used for other purposes as well.
Do they all belong to Firaxis / K2 ?

...

Seriously, what is this discussion about ?

Why should people in this forum suddenly be interested in denying most basic rights of modders ?
(This is not about making money. This is simply about rights of decisions.)

Why should people in this forum suddenly claim that it is possible to break copyrights of files, simply because they were contained in a mod ?
(In our case, our mod might have been linked to this forum, but it was never uploaded to this forum.)

What is the interest behind all of this ?

Does anybody want to force modders to leave this forum ?
(In some cases - like in my case - even modders that are willing to share their own work.)

 

[Gary Childress]

Sorry, but that is non-sense.
(Not meant personal.)

MP3s work in the game as soundtrack / music.
Should every MP3 suddenly belong to Firaxis / K2 ?

NIF is a format that is used in Morrowind and many other games as well.
Do all the NIF files of these games suddenly belong to Firaxis / K2 ?

DDS is a image format that is used for other purposes as well.
Do they all belong to Firaxis / K2 ?

2K or Firaxis couldn't possibly claim right to all MP3s, however once they are incorporated into a mod that works in the game then it sounds like, at that point, the files come under the jurisdiction of 2K's EULA. So interpreting the EULA is important here.

 

[raystuttgart]

2K or Firaxis couldn't possibly claim right to all MP3s, however once they are incorporated into a mod that works in the game then it sounds like, at that point, the files come under the jurisdiction of 2K's EULA. So interpreting the EULA is important here.

Seriously, this is not possible.
I cannot even believe that something like this is claimed here.

The composer has given rights of usage for some of his music to our mod alone.
Anybody who wants to use that music as well, must ask that composer himself.
He cannot simply take it from our mod without asking anybody.

Everything else is definitely breaking copyrights and stealing intelectual property.

So I must ask again:
What is the point of this discussion ?
Is it really in the interest of this forum to force mods and modders to leave in order to protect their own work
and the work of generous people that have given rights of usage to the modders ?

Clearly stated terms of usage / permissions must be respected.
(If nothing is stated, it may be expected that usage is allowed.)

 

[Gary Childress]

Seriously, this is not possible.
I cannot even believe that something like this is claimed here.

I remember a few years back a friend of mine worked for Qwest, a communications company. At the time the lawyers at Qwest were actively suing and forcing other smaller companies that used the word Qwest in their title to abandon their use of the word, even if those companies were in existence before Qwest!! Corporations with lots of money and power can do amazing things with the law.

I'm sure 2K and Firaxis forsaw the need for creating stipulations for mods in their EULAs. I'm sure they anticipated that some artists might go the route of claiming exclusive right to do whatever they want with their own work.

According to the EULAs for Civ it sounds like selling anything having to do intimately with Civ is a big no, no. For instance I can't make a unit for Civ III and charge people money to buy my unit. I have to relinquish that right. If I have to relinquish that right then my rights have been limited. Now if someone decides to pay me to make a unit for them, I can charge them for my services. But I can't create units and then sell them for $5.00 a piece or something because that would be marketing off the Civ brand name. Heck, our right to sell our services to make Civ products may even be limited!

So the answer is YES, some of our rights as creators of Civ products are limited. To what extent they are limited can probably be found in the EULA. So a good interpretation of the EULA on this matter is probably needed if we wish to determine what rights creators have to their work.

If everyone simply releases their civ mods to the commons free of any strings attached then this all becomes a moot point but since we are debating rights here we need to look closely at the EULA.

 

[Gary Childress]

Here's a piece of the EULA for Civ III Complete on Steam:

USER CREATED CONTENT: The Software may allow you to create content, including but not limited to a gameplay map, a scenario, screenshot of a car design or a video of your game play. In exchange for use of the Software, and to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant Licensor an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services, including the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions. You hereby waive any moral rights of paternity, publication, reputation, or attribution with respect to Licensor’s and other players’ use and enjoyment of such assets in connection with the Software and related goods and services under applicable law. This license grant to Licensor, and the above waiver of any applicable moral rights, survives any termination of this License.

There's also a bit on profiting off the game:

LICENSE CONDITIONS.
You agree not to:
a. Commercially exploit the Software;
b. Distribute, lease, license, sell, rent or otherwise transfer or assign the Software, or any copies of the Software, without the express prior written consent of Licensor or as set forth in this Agreement;
c. Make a copy of the Software or any part thereof (other than as set forth herein);
. . . .

etc.

http://store.steampowered.com/eula/eula_2KGeneral



EDIT: So Raystuttgart, you might want to get with your composer friend and ask him if he wants to share his composition with everyone or else share it with no one.

 

[raystuttgart]

EDIT: So Raystuttgart, you might want to get with your composer friend and ask him if he wants to share his composition with everyone or else share it with no one.

Well, then our mod will need to leave this forum.
(And not be published anymore.)

And by the way:
We are not making money with our mod.
We share the mod (and everything we created ourselves) for free.
But I simply cannot share the music I do not own.

 

[Gary Childress]

Or you could simply not use the music in question. Either way...

 

[embryodead]

@Gary Childress, please... let me repeat:

EULAs, legally binding or not, cannot be treated as a basis for any discussions about modding policy, or you'll arrive at a conclusion that virtually no modding as we know it is permitted.