Proposed Policy Change - the Modiquette

[duckstab]

I'll add my endorsement to Gary's wording as well. It lets CFC encourage free sharing by establishing it as the default stance, without requiring it of creators or forcing them to find a different distribution channel for their work.

 

[Quinzy]

There's an issue with international law not being particularly uphold-able.

I like Gary suggestion. It codified a sense of cop-on, so that a breach of that etiquette would be enforceable if it comes to it.

 

[Takhisis]

...Let the gini "law" in the bottle!!! I highly recommend!
whether German law or Anglo-American law, it does not matter.
the only positiv thing is, it is well defined...
should someone really come up with the idea to use the Copyright Law, many many heads will roll her...
I think a "yes" and "no" For permission should/must be enough to handle this request ...

Or any other law. I hope that the madness expressed in 'international law', 'I'll sue', etc. etc. will go away. It'd never end up well, even so Wyrmshadow would be within his rights to ask that people stop making money off his work.

 

[Monaldinio]

I think we are going in a circle. all important arguments has been mentioned. this should come to the end!?
I think it would be best for cfc if I take my mod from the forum (links, signature and Thread, i have Never uploadet stuff to the Server).
I will not publish anything, so I also can "hurt" no One!
so I get what I want, hopfully, and the forum get what it wants.

it would be no great loss, a mod more or less ...
and the majority could continue as previously. even if I was not the only one who wants to decide for themselves.
I do not think it was a witch hunt, I was already aware that I will be criticized for my opinion, but you have to expect that when you think differently than the majority.
even if I have some feeling that the majority dont understand me, because of the missing context, but it doesnt matter. But i could criticize the half Truths about me...what ever...

 

[Jorsalfare]

From the "Agreement with us" in CFC Rules:
"You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this forum. In addition, if you post at this site, what you post is considered to be in the public domain."

This means in effect "You can only upload material that are in the public domain". Public domain (US legal term) means that there are no copyright restrictions. Anyone can modify and use it in any way they like - including commercial use. It's the uploader's responsibility to make sure no component of the uploaded material is copyrighted (my interpretation). Units and graphics converted from other games cannot be uploaded to CFC servers unless the copyright holder (original game developer) releases it into the public domain (non-commercial use and no derivative work clauses are not compatible with public domain). So far the rules are clear - although not enforced.

Should the same rules apply if you upload the material elsewhere and provide a link? If yes - is it forbidden to link to any material not in the public domain? What about copyrighted magazine articles? Or artwork used to share ideas of how a unit should look like? Can CFC ban links to copyrighted material alltogether? Probably they can, but I don't think it's in anyone's interest to do so.

A solution could be to allow Creative Commons licenses on material uploaded here. This would enable the creators to specify the conditions of the use of their work - like non-commercial and/or no derivative. It will also make it "legal" to upload work converted from other copyrighted games - work which are given permission to be used non-commercially. With different licenses, it would of course be easier if the items in the download database was tagged with license type, so that files with certain licenses could be filtered.

This would of course also mean that mod creators has to deal with (potentionally) several different licenses within their mod, making it a time-consuming job to figure out which license applies for which componts of the mod.

To credit the creators goes without saying.

Just my thoughts......

 

[raystuttgart]

... an assume-OK rather than assume-not attitude - much better.

Fully agree.
But explicitly stated terms of usage / permissions must be respected.

 

[Padjur]

I understand the emotional attachment modders have to their work but the Law does not deal in emotion and 2K didn't completely sell their rights down the river with Civ 4
(Even less so with Civ 5 as we all know).
The License Agreement for Civ 4 BTS lays out the rules under which 2K allow their code to be modified.
It must be the only legal framework that can be referenced in this debate as only 2K and Bioware are legally able to license its use.
What is permitted is and I shall paraphrase the conditions which are relevant to this debate but you can check your own copies of the License agreement.
1. All modifications created by you are owned solely by the licensor and cannot be transferred.
This means that you as the modder do not have any claim of ownership of your work, it is owned by 2K and you therefore have no right to give "permission" over its use in anyway, only 2K have that right.
2.Modified materials must be distributed for free.
You can't make money from it.
3.Modified materials cannot contain materials which infringe third party copyright.
You must have permission to use copyrighted materials. If a mod contains copyrighted music for example, as mentioned by raystuttgart, it cannot be used by anyone else without permission.
4.Modifications must contain proper credits for the authors.
Please note the word Must
This means that if a mods author makes his work available to others, they have no say over its use, in fact to try and claim rights or ownership of any mod would would breech the license agreement you have with 2K regardless of where it is hosted. Legally the only rule that can be imposed is:

Any Mod that is developed and is supplied by one of its authors is free to use as long as credit is given. No third party copyrighted material maybe be used without permission.

Admins do you think CFC should get involved in or be implicated in, a potential breach of the License Agreement, with all its legal consequences by adding a clause that implies the author of the mod has some sort of claim over it?
Would it not be best to stick with the Modiquette as it is, which I think is something the majority support and for modders to accept that 2K retain all rights, as you would expect them to do.
As a community can we not treat others as we would have them treat us and respect the hours, days, months and years of hard work put in by others and give credit where credit is due.

 

[Kyriakos]

My work is not owned by 2k at all, my work is not a derivative of anything made by Firaxis or any other company.
Keep in mind that this is not a discussion only about cIV.

 

[tom2050]

See the Spoiler of this post.

We explicitly state and explain how our work can be used and what can not be done.
If this is not respected by another modder, he simply does break Copyrights and might be sued ...

If the forum would ever suggest to officially ignore all Copyrights, then I would need to leave this forum in order to protect
the work of the people that have been so generous to allow the use of their work to us.

Again:
The things currently discussed (ignoring Coyprights and the rights of modders to decide about their own work) are not even legal.
If a modder explicitly states how his work can or cannot be reused, that must be respected.

But as I said, this is probably only a misunderstanding.
(I simply cannot believe that the people in charge of this forum seriously discuss becoming illegal.)

That was my point, and I am ready to contact whom needs to be contacted in the event that they do something as such. In no way can CFC say that copyrighted works are free to use by everyone.

From the "Agreement with us" in CFC Rules:
"You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this forum. In addition, if you post at this site, what you post is considered to be in the public domain."

This means in effect "You can only upload material that are in the public domain". Public domain (US legal term) means that there are no copyright restrictions. Anyone can modify and use it in any way they like - including commercial use. It's the uploader's responsibility to make sure no component of the uploaded material is copyrighted (my interpretation). Units and graphics converted from other games cannot be uploaded to CFC servers unless the copyright holder (original game developer) releases it into the public domain (non-commercial use and no derivative work clauses are not compatible with public domain). So far the rules are clear - although not enforced.

Should the same rules apply if you upload the material elsewhere and provide a link? If yes - is it forbidden to link to any material not in the public domain? What about copyrighted magazine articles? Or artwork used to share ideas of how a unit should look like? Can CFC ban links to copyrighted material alltogether? Probably they can, but I don't think it's in anyone's interest to do so.

Exactly, CFC is grossly breaking it's own rules right now. But seriously, CFC rules really don't matter that much, because since they are not above the law, they are just "blah blah blah". In this case, the rule requires some type of checks to ensure that copyrighted materials are not uploaded, and for it to be enforced. It probably does happen on occasion if there is a complaint, but otherwise, I've never seen it or heard of it happening on regular basis.

Do I expect it to happen? No. I wouldn't. I think they are doing just fine as is. Plus, to find out what CFC really means by that statement, the terms would have to be further defined. It's kind of like a general vague statement to me.

 

[deanej]

My work is not owned by 2k at all, my work is not a derivative of anything made by Firaxis or any other company.
Keep in mind that this is not a discussion only about cIV.

This discussion is very much about Civilization, and I'm sure all versions have similar language. Note that this site is Civilization Fanatics Center. Now, you might be right if all you're doing is making models that are 100% independent of civ4, but the nanosecond your files meet the game files in any way, 2K owns it. Note that EULAs have the force of law in the US and that this site is based in the US.

Also note that you can't, at least in the US to the best of my knowledge, just make something and claim a copyright on it. There's a bureaucratic process you have to go through, which includes submitting two copies to the Library of Congress. Did you do that? I'm guessing no... the effort simply isn't worth it for something like a mod.

I've never understood why some people like to restrict distribution of their work anyways. What's the point of knowledge/ideas if they aren't shared? What would Richard Stallman say?

 

[Monaldinio]

Also note that you can't, at least in the US to the best of my knowledge, just make something and claim a copyright on it. There's a bureaucratic process you have to go through, which includes submitting two copies to the Library of Congress. Did you do that? I'm guessing no... the effort simply isn't worth it for something like a mod.

I've never understood why some people like to restrict distribution of their work anyways. What's the point of knowledge/ideas if they aren't shared? What would Richard Stallman say?

.....

 

[kiwitt]

Would it not be best to stick with the Modiquette as it is, which I think is something the majority support and for modders to accept that 2K retain all rights, as you would expect them to do.

As a community can we not treat others as we would have them treat us and respect the hours, days, months and years of hard work put in by others and give credit where credit is due.

I've never understood why some people like to restrict distribution of their work anyways. What's the point of knowledge/ideas if they aren't shared? What would Richard Stallman say?

I like the way this discussion is heading in.

It would be nice to wrap this up before Christmas, so we can start a new year on a good foundation.

 

[Padjur]

My work is not owned by 2k at all, my work is not a derivative of anything made by Firaxis or any other company.
Keep in mind that this is not a discussion only about cIV.

If you have "created any software utilities and or customized game materials based upon or otherwise derived from the Software"
then you do so with the express permission of 2K and on the understanding that "All customized game materials created by you are and shall be exclusively owned by Licensor and you freely transfer, assign and convey to licensor all rights".
Believe me, 2K, fraxis and all the rest have this DRM well covered and they don't make the habit of giving you any rights to anything remotely related to or derived from the well known and popular game Civilization.
Better to keep all this legal mumbo jumbo out of the community, gentleman's agreement and all that. The vast majority agree that you shouldn't use someone's work without permission if possible and who amongst us does not want to enjoy the support and goodwill of the community, we all do. We are all reasonable men here. We don't have to give assurances as if we were lawyers.

 

[raystuttgart]

Also note that you can't, at least in the US to the best of my knowledge, just make something and claim a copyright on it. There's a bureaucratic process you have to go through, which includes submitting two copies to the Library of Congress. Did you do that? I'm guessing no... the effort simply isn't worth it for something like a mod.

Seriously, there are cases when parts of a mod are copyrighted.
(E.g. some of the music contained in our mod which we have gotten allowance of usage by a composer.)

Maybe it is not the case in your mod, but in our mod it is.
That simply is a fact.

So you can not say that everything that is linked to this forum is free for the taking no matter what the developer / artist says.

And do you really want to claim that a modder does not have any rights whatsoever considering decisions about usage of his work.
Why do we even give Credits then ?

I've never understood why some people like to restrict distribution of their work anyways. What's the point of knowledge/ideas if they aren't shared ?

I am personally very willing to share the things that I have created myself.
However, I do insist that it is my free decision to share and not something a forum rule may dictate.

I can only repeat:
Explicitly stated terms of usage / permissions must be respected.
If nothing is explicitly stated, it should be expected that free usage is allowed.

Guideline / Modiquette that says "Sharing is expected from a good community member.".
Fourm Rule that says "Modders have no rights and everything you find is free for the taking."

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

This discussion is very much about Civilization, and I'm sure all versions have similar language. Note that this site is Civilization Fanatics Center. Now, you might be right if all you're doing is making models that are 100% independent of civ4, but the nanosecond your files meet the game files in any way, 2K owns it. Note that EULAs have the force of law in the US and that this site is based in the US.

Perhaps you did not read Kyriakos's statement correctly. He specified cIV not "civ". And if you had read the previous threads, he refers only to Civ3.

Do be aware that there are other Civ games other than IV and V.

 

[Gary Childress]

I understand the emotional attachment modders have to their work but the Law does not deal in emotion and 2K didn't completely sell their rights down the river with Civ 4
(Even less so with Civ 5 as we all know).
The License Agreement for Civ 4 BTS lays out the rules under which 2K allow their code to be modified.
It must be the only legal framework that can be referenced in this debate as only 2K and Bioware are legally able to license its use.
What is permitted is and I shall paraphrase the conditions which are relevant to this debate but you can check your own copies of the License agreement.
1. All modifications created by you are owned solely by the licensor and cannot be transferred.
This means that you as the modder do not have any claim of ownership of your work, it is owned by 2K and you therefore have no right to give "permission" over its use in anyway, only 2K have that right.
2.Modified materials must be distributed for free.
You can't make money from it.
3.Modified materials cannot contain materials which infringe third party copyright.
You must have permission to use copyrighted materials. If a mod contains copyrighted music for example, as mentioned by raystuttgart, it cannot be used by anyone else without permission.
4.Modifications must contain proper credits for the authors.
Please note the word Must
This means that if a mods author makes his work available to others, they have no say over its use, in fact to try and claim rights or ownership of any mod would would breech the license agreement you have with 2K regardless of where it is hosted. Legally the only rule that can be imposed is:
Admins do you think CFC should get involved in or be implicated in, a potential breach of the License Agreement, with all its legal consequences by adding a clause that implies the author of the mod has some sort of claim over it?
Would it not be best to stick with the Modiquette as it is, which I think is something the majority support and for modders to accept that 2K retain all rights, as you would expect them to do.
As a community can we not treat others as we would have them treat us and respect the hours, days, months and years of hard work put in by others and give credit where credit is due.

Interestig...So according to this the composer of Raystuttgart's mod music has signed license of his work over to 2K? Does this mean 2K can simply download Raystuttgart's mod and include it in their next expansion pack, regardless of whether or not Raystuttgart or his composer friend wants it to be?

 

[ainwood]

I am personally very willing to share the things that I have created myself.
However, I do insist that it is my free decision to share and not something a forum rule may dictate.:

It is your free decision to post your works to CFC. It is CFCs free decision to allow you to. However, we do have forum rules to frame what can be posted here, and I think that we should have forum rules that allow people postings things here to understand what the conditions are for what can be done with the stuff they choose to post here.

I am not looking to impose a rule. I would prefer for the modding community to come up with something that they can all live with. It may be that this rule or guideline is that the modder can choose conditions of use, in which case, fine. But however it is done, it must be clear to all.

 

[embryodead]

Perhaps you did not read Kyriakos's statement correctly. He specified cIV not "civ". And if you had read the previous threads, he refers only to Civ3.

It doesn't have anything to do with Civ3 vs 4 vs 5. All have EULAs with the same basic stipulations, the Civ3 one as well. MP3 files or DDS textures included in Civ4 are same as MP3 and PCX in Civ3 - common formats that have nothing to do with Firaxis are not necessarily a modification of any of their material. Kyriakos is right in that he can post them and technically EULAs don't apply to them, no matter which Civ number is it.

However, such components cannot be included in any mod, even if you have a permission, it breaks the EULA. Even if the materials are public domain but the mod is based on copyrighted IP (Star Trek, Star Wars, Dune, Warhammer etc.), it is not allowed as per EULA, period. It doesn't matter that you have a permission (e.g. tom2050's HoMM mod). Gary Childress is right that the work would have to be licenced to Firaxis/2K, not the modder.

See point (iv) of the Civ3 license agreement:

Your Variations: (i) must only work with the full, registered copy of the Software; (ii) must not contain modifications to any executable file; (iii) must not contain any libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party; (iv) must not contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties; and (v) may not be commercially exploited by you, including but not limited to making such Variations available for sale or as part of a pay-per-play or timesharing service.

Also notice that (i) is even more stupid, incredibly stupid, not unusual for an EULA - it's impossible to comply with and makes every single mod break it

So my point is that getting EULAs as a basis for anything is silly and impractical, because most (or indeed all) mods on this site break them, and if they were enforced, modding wouldn't exist as a phenomenon. EULA is there as a safety measure (in this case, to put the responsibility of copyright infringement on the modder, rather than the company), rather than something to be enforced top-down and used as a basis for any modding policy on CFC.

 

[ls612]

<snip>

So my point is that getting EULAs as a basis for anything is silly and impractical, because most (or indeed all) mods on this site break them, and if they were enforced, modding wouldn't exist as a phenomenon. EULA is there as a safety measure (in this case, to put the responsibility of copyright infringement on the modder, rather than the company), rather than something to be enforced top-down and used as a basis for any modding policy on CFC.

So basically everything we are doing on this site is illegal then, right?

I'm not quite certain though why there would be an issue with using the full registered version of Civ III, granted I haven't installed civ III for 4 years so I may forget things.

 

[embryodead]

So basically everything we are doing on this site is illegal then, right?

I'm not quite certain though why there would be an issue with using the full registered version of Civ III, granted I haven't installed civ III for 4 years so I may forget things.

It means that any Civ3 mod that works with a pirated version of Civ3 is a breach of EULA (that's not the same as "illegal"). Obviously you cannot make a mod to work only with full and registered versions of Civ3, so you're out of luck