Prove God does not exist!

[Bootstoots]

sure thing is was real!
but we DO have indication it exists.

now come on, can you name a thing that is real but we have no phsyical indication it is?

Okay, how about a planetary system around a randomly selected star in the Andromeda galaxy. This is only hypothetical, but if this unnamed star is discovered in the future to have a planetary system, then the system was obviously real even before we discovered it. At the present time, however, we do not know that it has one nor do we know that it does not have one. The only logical conclusion regarding a planetary system around this star is that we do not know whether it has one or not. This is why I'm agnostic; I see no reason to believe in a deity (or deities) but there is also no logical reason to believe there is none. The belief that the number of deities in existance is equal to 0 (strong atheism) is in my mind the same as believing that the number of deities is equal to or greater than 1. Is there any reason I should think differently, given a complete lack of evidence on the topic?

As to a thing that we know is real but we have no physical indication it is, I find that concept as ridiculous as you do. However, if we have no knowledge whatsoever of something, it makes no sense to default to the negative "it must not exist."

 

[Voynich]

Prove god does not exist?

First of all, the burden is on you to prove that god does exist. As is it in law, innocent until proven guilty.

Second of all, all right.

This is a symbolic proof… the law of inference I used can be found here.

Premises: If god were unable to prevent evil, it would be impotent; if god were unwilling to prevent evil, it would be malevolent. If evil exists, then god would be unable or unwilling to prevent evil. There is evil. If god exists, it would be unwilling or unable to prevent it.

Symbols:

W: God is willing to prevent evil.
A: God is able to prevent evil.
I: God is impotent.
M: God is malevolent.
E: Evil exists.
G: God exists.

^: Conjunction (And)
V: Disjunction (Or)
~: Negation (Not)
->: Conditional (If… then)

Proof:

1. ~A -> I (1-5) (Given)
2. ~W ->M
3. E -> (~W V ~A)
4. E
5. G -> (~I ^ ~M)
6. ~W V ~A (3) (M.P.)
7. (~A -> I) V (~W -> M) (1,2) (Conj.)
8. I V M (6,7) (C.D)
9. ~ (~I ^ ~M) (8) (De M.)
10. ~G (5,9) (M.T.)

Therefore, god does not exist.

The problem with this equation exists in the first and second premises. It may be necessary for God to allow human created evil to happen in order to allow free will to exist. One argument for why God must allow natural evil is that there must be predictable outcomes from natural events. Altering any of this would generally affect free will.

 

[romelus]

i have the proof, it's on a piece of paper i have

now prove that i don't have that piece of paper

 

[romelus]

The problem with this equation exists in the first and second premises. It may be necessary for God to allow human created evil to happen in order to allow free will to exist. One argument for why God must allow natural evil is that there must be predictable outcomes from natural events. Altering any of this would generally affect free will.

if god is powerful and willing, he would make all consequences of human action good. but he is either not powerful, or not willing, or nonexistant

 

[Sims2789]

It is up to the person making the claims to prove them; not up to the person against the claims to debunk them.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yes, I suppose you (Birdjaguar Post #53) make a good point. However, the major religions clearly have a presumed definition of good and evil, and these religions also claim that their god is completely on the side of good. Therefore, it would make sense that the completely powerful and benevolent god of these religions would make some attempt at correcting the evil of the world.

I would be curious about how posters define god. Do all the believers see god the same way? What is gods role in the universe? Is there within Christianity (any flavor) a described purpose to the universe? The nature of good an evil will flow naturally from your answers.

On the other side of the debate, where logic rules, I would ask you to say if you think that the universe had a beginning or if it is eternal? If it had a beginning, what was the first cause? If it is eternal, how do you account for the big bang?

These are the fundamental questions that define the religious and anti religious postions. If you cannot answer them you must be an agnostic.

 

[carlosMM]

Okay, how about a planetary system around a randomly selected star in the Andromeda galaxy. This is only hypothetical, but if this unnamed star is discovered in the future to have a planetary system, then the system was obviously real even before we discovered it. At the present time, however, we do not know that it has one nor do we know that it does not have one.

the same logical fault as before: the physical evidence is there, even if we do not see it yet! But that is just a matter of using the right telescope from the right place!

As to a thing that we know is real but we have no physical indication it is, I find that concept as ridiculous as you do. However, if we have no knowledge whatsoever of something, it makes no sense to default to the negative "it must not exist."

Indeed - but why are there millions of people constantly badgering me to have faith that it exists and thus ive them money for it???????

 

[FredLC]

On the other side of the debate, where logic rules, I would ask you to say if you think that the universe had a beginning or if it is eternal? If it had a beginning, what was the first cause? If it is eternal, how do you account for the big bang?

Well, about the eternity of the universe, the simple and honest answer is: I don't know. I wasn't there, so I just don't know.

About the big bang? Well, it's a cataclism of universal proportions, which's maginitude probably we really fail to conceive, but that does not mean it was the beggining of the universe. Maybe there was something before it, that created the conditions for it happening in a perfectly natural way. Who knows? Perhaps an universe that existed before collapsed into a mostrous black hole, that became so unstable that exploded as the big bang, like a supernova from hell (or heaven), if I am allowed a wild guess.

Truth is, I just don't know, for the big bang is such an extreme condition that it renders all models and considerations that tries to analyse its source useless. And hence, as I can't excrutinate, I admite to be unaware of the facts, simple as that.

Regards .

 

[Aphex_Twin]

@Birdjaguar

Something most deffinately "was" before the Big Bang, so the universe need not necessarily have a beginning out of nothing. But before the BB actually nothing "happend"; time itself was born with it. Or at least that's what the best theory so far.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Nothing happened, stuff just Was or Wasnt. An endless Now.

 

[Godwynn]

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" - Voltaire

Think

 

[CurtSibling]

Think

A tall order in this day and age!

 

[eyrei]

A tall order in this day and age!

So it could be expected of another day and age? Which one?

 

[Free Enterprise]

would make all consequences of human action good. but he is either not powerful, or not willing, or nonexistant

That[altering the effects of human behavior] would probably negate free will. Preventing someone from bringing harm on another person would make it impossible for people to actually choose evil. For example if: two people were in an argument and one insulted the other yet the other person did not hear anything that would cause psychological agony/harm, free will would have been negated.

 

[romelus]

That[altering the effects of human behavior] would probably negate free will. Preventing someone from bringing harm on another person would make it impossible for people to actually choose evil. For example if: two people were in an argument and one insulted the other yet the other person did not hear anything that would cause psychological agony/harm, free will would have been negated.

you see there are limits to the effects of human behaviour. we are unable to teleport around, yet we don't feel our free will is restricted because we can't teleport. in your example, if god made humans unable to insult others just like he made humans unable to teleport, no feelings of restriction would be felt by the humans as no one would even know insulting was possible

however such god either failed to take care of this problem, or wasn't willing to, or doesn't exist

 

[Free Enterprise]

you see there are limits to the effects of human behaviour. we are unable to teleport around, yet we don't feel our free will is restricted because we can't teleport.

The difference in the comparision is that teleporting could or might lead to excessive power potential which would disrupt normal function (unless the world were a utopia).

in your example, if God made humans unable to insult others just like he made humans unable to teleport, no feelings of restriction would be felt by the humans as no one would even know insulting was possible

That would prevent humans from choosing to inflict evil on others thus preventing meaningful relationships among humans. If only good seems possible to humans then they must be good an cannot be evil. The teleportation issue is not necessary for meaningful free will. The non-utopian condition of humans could perhaps explain the lack of teleportation abilities.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

If God is all powerful then why does he allow evil in the world? Maybe he isn't all good?

But if God is all good then why does he allow evil in the world? Maybe he isn't all powerful?

*poof* God disappears in a cloud of logic! *poof*

F-R-E-E W-I-L-L

pronounced fuh-REE oo-ILL

*poof* Logic disappears in a cloud of God! *poof*

 

[newfangle]

Freewill can't exist if an omnipotent being does.

If a being is 100% of every particle in every point in spactime, it should come to no surprise to him what people do.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

sure thing is was real!
but we DO have indication it exists.

now come on, can you name a thing that is real but we have no phsyical indication it is?

Non-linear Time (Seems like a safe bet, but still no proof of its existence...)

Dark Matter

God

Satan

Absolute Morality

The Perfect Philly Cheese-steak Sandwich (I will scour the earth for it though, 'til my dying day...)

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Freewill can't exist if an omnipotent being does.

If a being is 100% of every particle in every point in spactime, it should come to no surprise to him what people do.

Omnipotent?

I keep hearing this silly word tossed around in discussions of the Christian God Jehovah like it somehow is applicable to Him and can be quoted from the Bible, but no-one has yet told me the Book, Chapter, and Verse in which it appears.

Let's try a new word...

S-T-R-A-W-M-A-N

pronounced strAW-man