Punching Nazis

[Manfred Belheim]

I don't think supporting Brexit is a 100% guarantee someone is a racist. "I don't like black people" probably yes.

So even when it was clearly satirical, and even when the person clearly states "I don't really think that" multiple times afterwards, it's still a 100% guarantee is it? In what world does that make sense?

Yup, the kind of thing you always say to avoid giving clear reasons.

I don't have a duty to explain anything to you at all. That doesn't mean it's right to invent motivations for me if I don't.

 

[Lexicus]

Erm, you don't know how they collect unemployment statistics? If the person "stops looking for work," they're counted as retired... even if they're 27 and living with three roommates while in debt.

This I'm not sure is true; sounds false to me but I don't know for certain.

What I do know is that the officially-used unemployment figure is U-3 which understates true unemployment for a variety of reasons.

Labor force participation rate as a whole has been decreasing for decades, but mostly because the population is getting older.

 

[metalhead]

Why do people have so much trouble with nuance? Even simple nuance, like a person being black or Jewish does not equate with a person voluntarily believing in mass killings as the official policy of the United States.

Virtually every new job post-2010 has been for lower salaries and/or for lesser hours than previous job gains were.

I made a proper post on this some time ago, I believe the figure cited was ~70% of all new jobs/job growth stats were for under $15/hr, with half being under $12/hr

Well you cited to bogus statistics if that is what you found. The reality is that 47% of the jobs added under Obama are considered "high wage," paying nearly $60,000/year. Employment has recovered to the point that job growth is slowing a bit, but wage growth appears to be (finally) happening. And if you scroll down in this piece, you'll find that virtually all of the jobs created during the recovery are full-time jobs.

 

[Lexicus]

People like you are just as dangerous, disgusting and undemocratic as those you pretend to oppose.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that no, fighting Nazis does not make you as bad as a Nazi, and people who think it does might as well be Nazis themselves.

 

[cardgame]

Thank you for the correction, metalhead. I may be misremembering or just flat out wrong, it is pretty late here...

 

[cardgame]

Well, the line from defending nazis to becoming one is a lot shorter than antifa to fa

Even if you don't make the ideological switch you are enabling.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Gratitude for what, exactly?

So, somewhere along the line you claimed to have been educated about late twentieth century history. Assuming you still have access to your old textbooks, look up "cold war." I'm sure it will be mentioned in there somewhere.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

..I want to add this:
People like you are just as dangerous, disgusting and undemocratic as those you pretend to oppose. Except from the slogans you blare to justify your lust for violence, you aren't different from them at all. The same scum only under a different flag.
I don't want to see people like you the same way as I don't want to see Nazis marauding through the streets, arbitrarily picking their victims because they might be suspicious.
You are certainly not the defenders of humanity or the "good guys" you want to make us believe, but probably some ordinary thugs nobody cares about, who are craving for some approval. And even though Timsup2nothin tried to glorify his time in prison, I'm not using the word "criminal", because I'm sure he was only the "victim" while trying to defend the good cause, right?

No, and have never claimed such. If you want to put words in someone's mouth, kiss your mother.

Meanwhile, the words you put in Lexicus' mouth are also not something he said.

You are crying about people who will not stand up to Nazis being called nazis, which didn't happen. They were said to be just as bad as. That is accurate if through their inaction nazis are allowed to come to power.

 

[aelf]

Rather a demonstration how claming that someone "harbors elements of ideology x" is so vague it could mean anything and as such isn't sufficient to sanction use of violence.

It's completely irrelevant because I've already specified advocating genocide as the first criterion. Yet you persist with "What if he's not really a Nazi??? What if he only believes in the 'socialist' part???" It's really dumb.

That's the problem - people here are talking past each other.
The question in the OP was apparently raised in a context of specific recent incident, so I'm wondering over the issue if there are contemporaries who fit the description and thus should be punched - and if so, who are they. Related question is, if one could fit the description and yet shouldn't be punched - and if so, who are they.
If you wish to discuss whether it was OK for Allies to fight Hitler, you can do so, but I doubt you'll find anyone disagreeing.

Pretty sure that some of the posters here think advocating genocide should not be met with violence unless it's carried out.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Pretty sure that some of the posters here think advocating genocide should not be met with violence unless it's carried out.

I'd be interested to see if anyone is going to put their hand up to actually thinking that.

 

[caketastydelish]

We had someone in the world history forum make posts a while back saying the genocide of native Americans was ok. https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...n-the-far-future.503977/page-14#post-12854300
I've also seen someone deny the Internment of Japanese of Americans really happened. I also saw someone (I think his name was Swedishguy or something) going on a long rant about how the Holocaust was fake. edit: In the thread mourning the death of Nelson Mandela, we had some people calling him a 'racist' just for wanting equality for his country. Among other examples of what I'm talking about.

We've definitely had posters with those kinds of beliefs before.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Woah.. I have to thank you for confirming the point of my post without any further effort on my side!
I didn't expect it would be THAT easy!

Touché, well played!
Well, I got what I wanted, from all of you. So I will leave you alone again so you can get back to the usual business of fantasizing about violence and murder.

Bye!

Okay, so now we see why this one wouldn't punch a Nazi. A snappy comeback typed on the internet sent them away crying.

 

[metalhead]

1) If I would defend anyone, I wouldn't put them in the same corner, would I? Maybe you want to read my post again.
2) For me, the line between
-behaving like a Nazi (political violence, extremism, defamation of those with another oppinion, dehumanization and the urge to eradicate certain groups,...) but only using different slogans or people you'd like to eradicate
and
-being a Nazi is a lot shorter than anything else.

Right, but the part you're missing is that saying, "I'm OK with punching literal Nazis who advocate for genocide," is a LOOOOOONG way away from advocating for widespread political violence, or wanting to defame or eradicate certain groups. I don't deny Nazis right to exist, or even to speak. However if they want to speak their Nazi garbage in public, then they invite a punch to the head.

This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. The only defaming going on is by you, trying to equate punching a Nazi with widespread political violence against people we don't agree with. Others in this thread have made that same mistake. You're not focusing on the actual issue, but simply smearing everyone who you don't agree with - the exact behavior you complain of other people doing, and which they weren't actually doing.

 

[Lexicus]

You are crying about people who will not stand up to Nazis being called nazis, which didn't happen. They were said to be just as bad as. That is accurate if through their inaction nazis are allowed to come to power.

That's the logic.

What a clichéd, pathetic attempt to defame anyone with a different oppinion.

I'm defaming people who are essentially telling me that they'd stand by and watch while Nazis took over.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Nice use of "essentially" there. Stops it being an outright lie I guess.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Nice use of "essentially" there. Stops it being an outright lie I guess.

No, it compensates for the fact that people will dance around the facts and then say "but I didn't say exactly those words so neener neener neener" as if they were proving something. Fact is that anyone can see what is essentially being said, so the "but I didn't use those words" defense is just making themself feel better, not really convincing anyone else of anything.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You are right, I wouldn't want to harm any living being.

Just put words in people's mouth so you can pretend outrage about something they didn't say. Got it. Go on your harmless way then.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

No, it compensates for the fact that people will dance around the facts and then say "but I didn't say exactly those words so neener neener neener" as if they were proving something. Fact is that anyone can see what is essentially being said, so the "but I didn't use those words" defense is just making themself feel better, not really convincing anyone else of anything.

It doesn't. It puts words in people's mouths, which is something you understandably dislike when it happens to you. Absolutely no-one has said they would stand idly by and watch the Nazis take over, that's ridiculous.

Just because you personally think, for some reason, that that would be the inevitable and unavoidable consequence of not punching every random nazi that you encounter in the face, doesn't mean that other people share that view. That's why they're not "essentially" saying that.

 

[metalhead]

You don't have to say it, necessarily. I mean, we know that millions of people actually do stand by as authoritarians take over. So where do you draw the line about when it's OK to punch them?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It doesn't. It puts words in people's mouths, which is something you understandably dislike when it happens to you. Absolutely no-one has said they would stand idly by and watch the Nazis take over, that's ridiculous.

One poster has clearly stated that they wouldn't punch a Nazi because the Nazis actually represent many of their own views. It seems unlikely they would do anything other than stand idly by and watch Nazis take over.

Another poster has claimed they would not harm a living being under any circumstances. It is hard to imagine anything they could do about a Nazi takeover other than stand idly by.

I could find more examples where saying "they would stand idly by and watch the Nazis take over" is just a logical conclusion from what they said, not putting words in their mouth.