PW-01: Holy word

[Zargon]

We can farm over one floodplain, but only temporarily to get the growth started. The floodplain grassland and the oasis balance the three metal hills, so once we grow once or twice, working floodplain cottages will provide growth.

Farm over one floodplain, build a granary, then work the farm instead of once hill for a 4 food surplus is the best way to jumpstart the growth, I think.

I think shrines should be low on the list of priorities. Even though we need 7, it's not a big deal. We build a city on that peninsula, get all 7 religions in, build 7 temples, plus national epic, and run 7 priests = 42 GPP. That's enough to bring in the 10th GP in 24 turns, and that's without the Parthenon and without pacifism.

I'm actually thinking we run pacifism, and that will bring in 2 prophets in the capital in under 40 turns. We settle seaworld, and start building that up to feed dolphins to our priests. Baby dolphins. We use the 2 prophets to bulb Theology followed by Civil Service. We manually research economic techs, as well as along the top line with literature and music, for the many good wonders there. At the end of the music line, we get an artist, and the artist can bulb Divine Right.

We have the potential here to create an insurmountable tech lead. Let's not slow down for things we can do later. We can use the first prophet to come out of seaworld to build our first shrine.

The other option is to prioritize missionaries for our neighbors early, rather than putting it off, and in that case, it might be worthwhile to build the shrine with the first (~15 turns) or the second prophet (~40 turns).

 

[pawelo]

I think shrines should be low on the list of priorities. Even though we need 7, it's not a big deal. We build a city on that peninsula, get all 7 religions in, build 7 temples, plus national epic, and run 7 priests = 42 GPP. That's enough to bring in the 10th GP in 24 turns, and that's without the Parthenon and without pacifism.

I'm actually thinking we run pacifism, and that will bring in 2 prophets in the capital in under 40 turns. We settle seaworld, and start building that up to feed dolphins to our priests. Baby dolphins. We use the 2 prophets to bulb Theology followed by Civil Service. We manually research economic techs, as well as along the top line with literature and music, for the many good wonders there. At the end of the music line, we get an artist, and the artist can bulb Divine Right.

We have the potential here to create an insurmountable tech lead. Let's not slow down for things we can do later. We can use the first prophet to come out of seaworld to build our first shrine.

The other option is to prioritize missionaries for our neighbors early, rather than putting it off, and in that case, it might be worthwhile to build the shrine with the first (~15 turns) or the second prophet (~40 turns).

I pretty much agree with your analysis.
In fact, we need only the first shrine, than we have to "contaminate" the neighbors before going for the second one - which can be as far as after Astronomy.

We need everyone to be buddhist, so I think sending missionaries to Stalin and Mao should be on our priority list before too long.
It would provide us also with nice money because, godless they might have been in the real life, they will tend to spread buddhism as soon as it shows up in their cities for happiness issues.

Btw, isn't it a prophet that bulbs the DR ?

I think we should go for the Parthenon anyway, having extra priests won't hurt once we land Angkor Wat. Imagine 10 Angkor Wat Priests settled in our production city

 

[Zargon]

Prophets do bulb divine right, but they don't have a monopoly on it. Artists (and even scientists and engineers if you try hard enough) will also bulb Divine right under the correct conditions.

The rundown is explained here
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/gp_tech_pref.php

And we should without a doubt go for the Parthenon about as early as we can. We're going to have no less than 3 cities running a crapton of specialists, and we can't have the national epic in all of them.

 

[TriviAl]

Turn 0 (60)
It all looks very nice. We have to spread all our religions to our own cities, so I add the Confucian Misionary - we have a 4 religion capital now - I'd send him off exploring, but that's a bad idea if he has to cross barb country. Later I realise we have no barbs in this game. Doh, kinda sums it up nicely. Apologies.

Turn 1 (61)
Move the warriors - watch things grow. Memphis grows - work the pig with the 3rd pop point - intending to double whip at 4 points for the grannary - marble would build too fast.

Turn 2 (62)
Animal Husbandry in, Bronze working next. Thebes has a source of horse:

Spoiler :

Oracle drops from 4 to 3 turns.

Turn 3 (63)
All continues as normal. I move the worker onto the wheat.

Turn 4 (64)
The worker starts on the wheat, the warriors move.

Turn 5 (65)
IBT - refuse OB with Mao - nothing to gain before our first shrine is built. Like to see the diplo situation first. Bronze working in. Set for hunting, due in 1. This completes:

Spoiler :

I choose hunting as our free tech.

Only kidding - go for:

Spoiler :

Founding Taoism in Memphis. In other news, Taoism has copper! That's one impressive city:

Spoiler :

I decide my previous settling plan was overly ambitious. The lord tells me we need a couple more workers first. So I start one in Thebes.

Seeing as Thebes will be busy with a worker for several turns, I decide to switch to Pacifism/Slavery. Can turn back to OR without penalty when the building restarts. Decide to temporarily drop science to 90% to preserve our treasury.

Turn 6 (66)
IBT: Meet this fine gent:

Spoiler :

Hunting in, switch to Maths. The wheat finishes.

Turn 7 (67)
The peninsula of brotherly love brings us a new friend.

Spoiler :

I double whip Memphis to get the grannary.

Turn 8 (68)
Put the overflow from the whip into a worker - due in 4 turns.

Turn 9 (69)
Nothing special.

Turn 10 (70)
Our first GP is born in Thebes - Sourjourner Truth.

At this point, the lord commands me to stop. Time to consult the council of elders!

I have included the save here for discussion purposes, am happy to play the last 5 of my turn, or hand over as the team sees fit.

Felt the 2 workers were right as whatever we do will benefit hugely from them.

Not normally a fan of stoppages, but the decisions here are going to affect the game for the long term. Felt it was too big for me to make without consulting.


I think we should focus on expanding hard.

If we lose out on the landgrab our peaceful nature stops us from conquering it later.

Take steps to deal with all the scary AIs - build a shrine, open borders to spread the true faith and build at least a token military.

The shrine and courthouses would help pay for the expansion

After that's done, back on the wonder/infra trail.

Put a city 1 north of the copper - as it will be a great 'right now' city - can push workboats to get the multiple cities we need on that crazy peninsula to start growing. (and it is a crazy place - see the screenie. ).

In the short term, I would add 1-2 irrigated FPs to the capital and run an extra priest specialist - with pacifism, that should get us another prophet in no time. Either research Theology or CS in the meantime.

What do you wise ones think?

Here's the world:

Spoiler :

And the (REMOVED TO AVOID CONFUSION).

 

[r_rolo1]

Welcome to Sid Sushi paradise

More seriously, it looks that our mapmaker decided to transform a continents map in a very wierd pangea ( not that I'm complaining )....

About game: the city that TriviAl suggested is a good one, but I think that we should go first to the phants an to the wine spot. Why? To block people.... If we go to the cooper/cow/fish spot first , we may have dificulties in getting those two spots if our northern friends start to ReX

Your plan looks good, but we need to start planning which wonders to pursue. For a example, Mids.... Good to add some to our future priests , but 500 hammers is a lot of settlers and infra ( ok, Ind + stone make it much cheaper, but the point stands ). Parthenon is good as well, but gives 2 artist GPP ( and we really don't need a GA )...

Good to see that Memphis has cooper That city will spit wonders when fully online

I agree with farming and priests in capitol... the prophet should shrine budha and then we should OB with everyone we meet

 

[Zargon]

Except that it's not 500 hammers. It's only 200 after industrious and stone bonuses.

And now that it's revealed that we don't have no less than 3, but now, no less than.... counting.... 6 (and probably more) potential cities running 6+ specialists, I'd think it all the more important.

I think we shouldn't worry about what GPPs are generated by wonders and just plan on spamming them all at Memphis.

That said, I'd still be in favor of growing our empire a bit before we have Memphis start building one wonder after another.

I'm actually thinking the first city go on the beginning of the seafood heaven. It wouldn't be too hard to jumpstart by chopping a workboat, and I certainly wouldn't want that entire line to be blocked by somebody else settling there first. The second city would be the 1N of copper city, and that city would churn out all the workboats for sealand, and the colossus, sooner or later. Sealand in turn uses it's stupid amount of food to crank out more settlers and workers than you shake a stick at, freeing Memphis to do wonders, one right after the other, and Thebes, to concentrate on being a huge commerce capital, and producing missionaries.

I'd have both cities finish their workers and then build 1 settler each, and grab those two sites.

There's so much real estate between us and our northern neighbors that I don't think we have to worry about the wine or the ivory getting taken.

edit: As for the prophet, I'm actually kinda leaning towards build the shrine now, which will drop the next prophet ETA to 20 turns rather than 25 under pacifism, and plan to use the 2nd on civil service, which means research Theology in the meantime.

 

[pholkhero]

1 crapton = 2.2 metric buttloads??

i agree on the GP focus ~ w/Obelisks, and 3 or 4 temples in each city, we can run up 6 priests I think. We should also have one miniproduction center that churns out Buddhist Missionaries until all the world's cities are Buddhist.

I think these should be the specialists we run, almost solely until we get all the shrines and religions done with. Though, i still am in favor of the Pyramids if we think we can get it, as well as stick w/Slavery over Caste System simply b/c we're going to want a 'vast amount' of Prophets. We should think about running solely them and test out a Priest-driven economy. Obviously, too, this heightens the importance of Angkor Wat. (I can't believe I just wrote that sentence!)

Also, since it's quite possible, w/all their cities Buddhist, the whole world might be one lovefest, and diplo might be a worth victory goal (again, if we feel like we need to heighten the challenge ~ though i don't think Im would've make this a cakewalk).

Remember the rules:

1 – Thou will found every single religion in the known world.

2 – Thou will build every single holy shrine for all thy beliefs.

3 – Thou will spread thy initial religion to every known city in the world by any mean.

4 – Thou will achieve to spread every belief into every city thy tribe possesses before the end of thy reign.

5 – Thou will seek to convert every neighboring tribe to thy beliefs.

6 – Thou will remain peaceful to thy neighbors, unless they declare war on thou.

7 – Thou will not keep more than a third of thy neighbor’s conquered cities.

8 – Thou will assist a brother in belief tribe with any peaceful knowledge he shall request.

9 – Thou will never give up thy own freedom to become a vassal to a neighbor.

10 – Thou shall win peacefully.”

I think #'s 1-4 are going to be quite difficult enough.

another thought: if we're going to be running all priests in a few cities, we may want to consider psuedo-beelining to the multiplier bldgs @ currency, guilds, and banking.

enough thinking for now: "I'm trying to think but nothing happens!"

edit: i see that I should read ALL the new posts before replying

 

[TriviAl]

Right, am going to finish that set now.

Think the shrine is a winner and will get started on settlers - agreed on locking the bridge down first - but think that will be for the next leader...

1 crapton = 2.2 metric buttloads

Damn right.

 

[pawelo]

My two pennies, although everything has already been sais :

- Memphis goes wonder crazy, stucking a forge in the midst. We need absolutely Angkor. We would like to have AP, Sistine, Spiral & Sankoré ( the Fantastic Four ). We would definitely like to have Pyramids because we want no one go Rep instead of us. Hanging Gardens would be nice too - and Memphis can provide un with it pretty fast.

- Thebes goes eco/research/missionary duties

- We definitely settle the peninsula entrance asap. I would settle also the end of the peninsula, just to deny sealand to JC. Though this last sentence has to be slept over on it before confirmation These cities should crank missionaries in parallel to settlers/workers/workboats.

- city 1N of copper is a brilliant idea.

- as for me, Great Prophet should go Mahabodhi asap

- with priest super specialists, fantastic four, mahabodhi etc we will be able to expand like hell, especially given the land at our disposal

- don't forget some military - Stalin won't wait for too long if not converted

Sorry for a telegraphic style, not much time on the forum tonight - great turns TriviAl. I would let you go for the last 5

Research Theo please, Christianity before 30AD, at least it would be historically accurate Plan Islam for 7th century

 

[TriviAl]

T10(70) - continued - I build a mighty shrine to the true faith - even if it currently only produces a single gold. Open borders with everyone except:

Spoiler :

This could be a problem. We really need to build a self defense force or this could bite us horribly. Think pawelo may be onto something there.

T11(71) - Thebes builds a worker > Grannary - it could do with a quick growth spurt before settlers. They'll be quicker. Assign for Growth at the cost of commerce. Move the worker to irrigate an FP.

T12(72) - Memphis - worker > Rax. Move this worker to help with the irrigation.

T13(73) - not a lot

T14(74) - as before!

T15(75) - Maths in. Meet this charmer:

Spoiler :

Sign OB's with him.

Some thoughts for the next player - feel free to ignore!

Spoiler :

Switched Thebes from the grannary to a settler now it has grown.

In light of the CS bulb idea, I have started on Theology - due in 13 at 100% - no turns invested, so fully vetoable.

A GP is due in 15 turns. Currently it's 100% Great Prophet.

Workers
1 started mining the copper near memphis.
1 has moved to chop a forest by Thebes - we have 3 forests and the 3rd offers no benefit - so can chop to speed the settler.
Left 1 unmoved - up to next player. I'd be inclined to irrigate a 2nd FP - to run a prophet and speed the next GP along. Although the gold needs hooking up.

Have bought back 1 warrior for MP in thebes - no protection is now 2 unhappy faces there.

The barracks in Memphis could be whipped this turn - it needs MP too. I have MM'd it for slower growth as it will go unhappy at next growth.

Afterthought - I'd be inclined to say 'hang the GPP pool' in Memphis after this turn - our fishing powerhouses will produce far more GPP if we encourage some temples along. :whip:

A piccie:

Spoiler :

And a save.

 

[pawelo]

T10(70) - continued - I build a mighty shrine to the true faith - even if it currently only produces a single gold. Open borders with everyone except:

Spoiler :

This could be a problem. We really need to build a self defense force or this could bite us horribly. Think pawelo may be onto something there.

Remember "Permanent Alliances" ? I think our Egyptian master crafter has something to do with it...

Sooner or later, we will have to strategize about it The red pagan/animist must go!

 

[Zargon]

First, I think your save location is malformed. Try http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/32149/Holy_Word_BC-1000.CivBeyondSwordSave

I don't know the ins & outs of permanent alliances. Does that mean that we'll never be able to bring stalin into the lovefest?

I definitely agree with Theology next. Not only does it allow us to bulb CS, I wouldn't want to lose due to one of these warmongers researching the basic religions early and popping a prophet and bulbing theology on us. Not damn likely, but still.

 

[TriviAl]

First, I think your save location is malformed. Try http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/32149/Holy_Word_BC-1000.CivBeyondSwordSave

I don't know the ins & outs of permanent alliances. Does that mean that we'll never be able to bring stalin into the lovefest?

I definitely agree with Theology next. Not only does it allow us to bulb CS, I wouldn't want to lose due to one of these warmongers researching the basic religions early and popping a prophet and bulbing theology on us. Not damn likely, but still.

Thanks for the catch on that save - fixed now.

It just seemed that Stalin had decided that we were his worst enemy - he was still at +1 with us - just a nasty old git. Comes from looking like a walrus, I think... didn't look like anything funny going on.

Hehe - I'd love to get rid of him, but the hands must be blood free! Hopefully someone else will spread our religion to him?

 

[Zargon]

Either that or just start a crusade

 

[TriviAl]

Either that or just start a crusade

Our lord says no.

6 – Thou will remain peaceful to thy neighbors, unless they declare war on thou.

7 – Thou will not keep more than a third of thy neighbor’s conquered cities.

 

[pawelo]

Our lord says no.

6 – Thou will remain peaceful to thy neighbors, unless they declare war on thou.

7 – Thou will not keep more than a third of thy neighbor’s conquered cities.

I have a walkaround to this problem - a Buddhist-horse

Let's settle at the closest distance possible - next to his border - to as many Stalin cities as possible, and as important cities as possible.

We send a warrior/settler/buddhist missionary.

Once we settle, we spread buddhism and try to give away the city:
- either he accepts the gift ( if he accepts to speak to us )
- or we can 'liberate' the city through the City Advisor Screen
- or we will have a pop-up about Buddhist-horse citizens are rightfully asking to join blah blah and agree asap
- or he will finish to eat us through the culture, as we won't put any culture in this city
- or he will get pi***d off and DoW us to get this city - and hopefully keep it

Et voilà

 

[TriviAl]

I have a walkaround to this problem - a Buddhist-horse

Let's settle at the closest distance possible - next to his border - to as many Stalin cities as possible, and as important cities as possible.

We send a warrior/settler/buddhist missionary.

Once we settle, we spread buddhism and try to give away the city:
- either he accepts the gift ( if he accepts to speak to us )
- or we can 'liberate' the city through the City Advisor Screen
- or we will have a pop-up about Buddhist-horse citizens are rightfully asking to join blah blah and agree asap
- or he will finish to eat us through the culture, as we won't put any culture in this city
- or he will get pi***d off and DoW us to get this city - and hopefully keep it

Et voilà

That's a really interesting idea! Love to give that one a try.

Figure the really important factor is whether it'd go before he DoW'd on us?

 

[pawelo]

That's a really interesting idea! Love to give that one a try.

Figure the really important factor is whether it'd go before he DoW'd on us?

I don't know how the Permanent Alliances work exactly, but I think his +1 relations to us, even if they get the -1 for close borders, won't make him attack that fast. Just to make sure, we should put some military online to review our powergraph and don't look too much as a snack to him

I have never done the "poisoned gift" like this in civ before, but figure it might be our best way (without relying on Mao or Mahabodhi) to get our religion inside his borders.
I trust him, though he is a pagan bastard, to spread it for happiness (if Imhotep didn't reserved us anothre surprise ).

 

[r_rolo1]

We are still far from the permanent alliances ( that only enter in play with Fascism and make 2 civs act like one ( needs a lot of buttering ), but I would wait a little regarding Stalin. Religion may still auto spread or we can still get one of those quests / events that spread religion to other civs territory... IMHO we should not waste a settler to Stalin now ( in spite of the idea is good )

 

[TriviAl]

We are still far from the permanent alliances ( that only enter in play with Fascism and make 2 civs act like one ( needs a lot of buttering ), but I would wait a little regarding Stalin. Religion may still auto spread or we can still get one of those quests / events that spread religion to other civs territory... IMHO we should not waste a settler to Stalin now ( in spite of the idea is good )

Do agree there - think it's an awesome plan, but not for 'right now' - got bigger fish to fry (more correctly, settle, bring into BFC and then workboat).