Question about Operation Barbarossa et al

[History_Buff]

It actually did move Russian defenders there. The drive on Kiev, which is frequently decried as foolish and having been a distraction from the "true objective" at Moscow, did not take place in a vacuum. Concurrently, several major engagements were being fought around Smolensk, in which a) the Red Army used up several Armies on ill-considered offensives that could have dented the Germans quite badly had they attempted to attack Moscow at that time and b) those Armies were severely mauled by local German troops, creating the preconditions for TAIFUN and the battle of Moscow.

So your view is even that had Hitler not decided to redirect the armor down to Kiev, then another Minsk or Smolensk type success at Moscow would have been extremely unlikely?

 

[Dachs]

So your view is even that had Hitler not decided to redirect the armor down to Kiev, then another Minsk or Smolensk type success at Moscow would have been extremely unlikely?

It would've changed the whole matrix for the operation, at the very least. Success would probably have been less likely. And it's not as though bagging a million Soviet troops at Kiev wasn't helpful, too - they would've been free to operate against the German southern flank had the Nazis simply pushed for Moscow.

 

[Angst]

The mere numbers of this whole ordeal makes me scared that the Red Army was able to resupply and counterattack with so much power. The losses listed in the campaign are insane.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Yes it's indeed scary. It really highlights the desperation of the situation. It was a period of suffering and tribulation that we cannot begin to comprehend.

 

[Lord Baal]

Fair enough. I thought you were speaking of the '42 campaign.



You are probably correct, as I couldn't find a source for evacuation of Moscow period. I would point out that having government and officials leave the city can't have stiffened up morale for its inhabitants. But Stalin's decision to stay and hold the parade apart, that wouldn't have made much difference had not Siberian troops been called back from the Japanese front (December being the time of the Japanese offensives south, not north towards the USSR).

THe German offensive stopped before those divisions were recalled . I'm very tired of this trope.

 

[Terrance888]

German Offensive Stops =/= Counter Offensive Starts.

 

[Lord Baal]

German Offensive Stops =/= Counter Offensive Starts.

True, but the counteroffensive by the Soviets had also started before those units arrived.

 

[Terrance888]

I think it was less the arrival of said units and more the knowledge that those units can form the core of the reserves, the defensive line, and future counter attacks.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I think it was less the arrival of said units and more the knowledge that those units can form the core of the reserves, the defensive line, and future counter attacks.

No, the Germans were halted by prepared defenses in the suburbs and surrounding countryside, and the mobilization in November of a quarter million Muscovites to the city's defense. There were a number of things that delayed German support of the Moscow offensive, or otherwise diverted attention from it. Already mentioned in this thread was the Kiev operation, but not said yet was the Soviet armies that fought on despite encirclement by the Wehrmacht. Near Mozhaisk, 28 German divisions were diverted from the Moscow offensive to "deal" with hard-fighting pockets of Red Army troops, an operation that took more than a month to resolve.

 

[Agent327]

The German offensive stopped before those divisions were recalled .

I didn't say the recalled Siberian divisions decided the Battle for Moscow, now did I? I mentioned it to illustrate that, unlike the Germans imagined, Russian reserves were far from deplete. The war didn't end in '41, but for the '42 campaign Hitler decided Moscow could wait... and there never was another battle for Moscow. In 1942 Stalin was still hesitant to release divisions from the Moscow front - as reserves were at an all time low, and another major counteroffensive might still put things in jeopardy if further massive losses occurred.

 

[red_elk]

But Stalin's decision to stay and hold the parade apart, that wouldn't have made much difference had not Siberian troops been called back from the Japanese front (December being the time of the Japanese offensives south, not north towards the USSR).

You are right of course, that decision (to stay in the city and hold the parade) was unlikely a game changer. Wars and battles cannot be won with high morale alone. The other decisions were much more important, like decision to recall Siberian troops and putting Zhukov in command of defence operation.