Questions about Judaism

[civ2]

JoeM
I think the right phrase would be "Christianity is idol worship for Jews".
Which means Jews aren't allowed to it whilst non-Jews aren't prohibited.
Idol worship has different degrees - the very idea of "son of God" (PHYSICALLY) recalls paganism (like Greek myths).

 

[Thequeenisgay]

but whats with the son the father and the holy ghost? completely against judasim im just saying the strict opinion many people dont consider it idol worship just heresy

 

[Thequeenisgay]

another thing(dont want to turn this into a Xtian bashing thread) since when would G-d almighty just suddenly change his mind about chosen people are you saying by beeing Chatholic that G-ds capabel of mistakes?

 

[bhsup]

VRWCAgent
My mistake - already edited.

No problem, my good man.

 

[Warman17]

Why would we keep saying that we believe in One God, if we believed in three gods? Why would we declaim idol worship, if we believed in idols?

By being hypocrites

No, but as said from a Jewish perspective this is how it is perceived. Wasn't the Christian church split in the dark ages between east and west(amogn with politics) because the Easterners didn't believe in Icons, because they thought it amounted to idol worship?

I mean, what would be the point? As people of faith, both Jews and Christians know that the only opinion that matters, is the opinion God holds.

Thats not true. God's opinion has no relavence in everyday choices. He won't choose whether you buy an apple or a kiwi. The bible doesn't say which one he likes better!

 

[Thequeenisgay]

yeah G-d gave us free-will for a reason. He wants US!! to make the right choices not him babysitting us

 

[soul_warrior]

another thing(dont want to turn this into a Xtian bashing thread) since when would G-d almighty just suddenly change his mind about chosen people are you saying by beeing Chatholic that G-ds capabel of mistakes?

lets not go there, ok?
many wars have started for less.

i DONT think that christianity is idoltry.
it is however different from judaism, like Civ2 said.

we are not allowed to worship any other god. even the holy trinity is pushing the edge on it.
personally i believe that THAT IS EXACTLY the power early christianity had, that allowed it to gain so much momentum.
having a trinity of divine figures, all similar in principle to the older pagan gods, made it easier for the people to convert to it.

jews are somewhat knuckleheaded when regarding such stuff.
maybe if we were so hard on new believers history would have looked better for us?
but we might as well have been mingled into other people like ALL the peoples before christ came.
judaism IS the oldest religion around (atleast as monotheistic oones go)

myearlier question to thequeenisgay was of a political nature.
i know what i meant. he knows what i meant.
and we have left it untouched here.
which was wise.

 

[soul_warrior]

Thats not true. God's opinion has no relavence in everyday choices. He won't choose whether you buy an apple or a kiwi. The bible doesn't say which one he likes better!

WRONG!
GODS LOVES APPLES THE MOST!
the apple!
bow down to his will!!!

 

[soul_warrior]

i think that ANY religion that ROBS people of thier FREEWILL is VILE.
some might consider both the Orthodox Jews AND Catholics to be WITHOUT FREEWILL.
they lives governed by politically motivated leaders, and the finances the people can generate to support thier overly large beurocracies and expensive lifestyles.

but im starting to bob my very ugly, very bigoted, head here, so ill just leave it here.
lets just say that I think ALL religions have, by default thier share of corrupt officials that in turn make the entire crowd look bad.

i have had quite a few run ins with hassidic jews, whom i have been taught to dispise, and have learnt different.
most are common people, with everyday worries, loves and hates.
its just that we have differnet priorities.

 

[civ2]

Thats not true. God's opinion has no relavence in everyday choices. He won't choose whether you buy an apple or a kiwi. The bible doesn't say which one he likes better!

Basically yes.
But the point is that exactly in everyday life a person shows his attitude towards God.
The apple or kiwi itself isn't important - if bought on equal conditions.
But if apples are sold by a poor orphan and kiwi by a wealthy guy - what SHOULD you buy what do you think, huh?
That's only one of the ways to make the "simple" choice not that simple.

yeah G-d gave us free-will for a reason. He wants US!! to make the right choices not him babysitting us

In other words if He wanted a bunch of robots He would create those.

 

[Israelite9191]

For the love of the Lord! OK, now to do some straightening out of facts on Catholicism. First, the Vatican specifically states that the covenant of Jesus does not replace the covenant with Israel. They did say as such for quite a long time, but to accuse a modern Catholic of believing as such would be ridiculous.

The Trinity is not polytheism. I know that for most, if not all, Jews (and most likely Muslims as well) it is at least at first impossible to comprehend the concept that there can be three persons in one divine being. The theology is very complicated, but in no way amounts to polytheism. For Christians, Catholics and others, there simply is no question as to the unity of Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. There are questions about just how the Trinity acts as three persons in one divine being, but that does not dispute the fact. For Christians, Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is the Father. They act as seperate persons, but are one being, just as a businessman who is also a husband and a father acts in one time as a bussinessman, in one time as a husband, and in another as a father. The difference? The Trinity is able to be all three at the same time. (As a side comment, it is interesting to note that trinitarianism appears in many religions around the world from Hinduism [the triumuriti {sp?} of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva] to many trinities within the pre-Christian polytheisms of Europe, particular Celtic polytheism). Now, do note that I am not saying that I agree with this view, I am only explaining it and defending it as a legitamate system of belief in cohesion with monotheistic practice.

As for wether Catholicism, Orthodoxy (both Eastern and Oriental), and other denominations within Christianity are idoloitrous, this is absurd. While I can most certainly understand the impression, and have myself felt it many times, it is not accurate. Catholics (I know the most about Catholic Christianity, so I will argue on this branch in particular) do not worship the crucifix, the images of the Virgin Mary, or the images of the saints. The veneration of the crucifix can be similarized (although not entirely, as their are some significant although theologically nitpicky differences) to Jewish veneration of the Torah scroll. The crucifix is to be venerated for its symbolism of the all-mighty, but is not to be worshiped for it is not the all-mighty. The statues and other images of Mary and the saints are similar, but even further removed from idolotry. Basically, Mary and the saints are not worshiped. The saints and mary are merely invoked to assist in intercession. Would G-d listen to the cries of man? Perhaps, but he is more likely to listen to the words of those who have achieved sainthood or, in the case of Mary, are his (Jesus) own mother, or so the theology goes. Now, if Mary and the saints are not worshiped, how could their images be worshiped? (Do note, again, that I do not agree with the concept of seeking aid from "saintly" people or from a woman named Mary who lived 2,000 years ago, I am only explaining the theology and defending it as a legitamate system of belief that does not conflict with the anti-idolotry of monotheism).

Now, I will respond to the post by Civ2 directed at myself.

 

[civ2]

soul_warrior
So you "were taught" - where was YOUR free will then?
And don't mix free will and so-called "freedom" meaning frivolty.

 

[aneeshm]

aneeshm
I mean that the commandment of "having One God" is higher in order to "you shall not murder".
Another such eample:
It's forbidden to desacrate Shabbath if you were told so by your parents BECAUSE:
1. Shabbath is the fourth commandment and parents is the fifth.
2. Both you and your parents are "overrun" by God concerning Shabbath.

So you're saying that , in essence , you can kill a non-Jew for disagreeing with your religious views ?

 

[Israelite9191]

Like about the rise of Monotheism.
Also "forgetting" is NOT an excuse!

For the individual who has forgotten his own upbringing through his own faults, no. However, an individual in a society that long ago forgot the unity of the divine and thus is brought up without any knowledge of the divine's unity there is an excuse. Again, I refer to the rabinic ruling on kidnapped Jews. Just as Jews who are kidnapped as young children and raised in a society that tells them that G-d is not one and not to follow the Torah are fogiven, so too should Gentiles who are brought up in a society that tells that that G-d is not one be forgiven.

The source of idol worship for those times was not merely forgetting but rather misinterperetations and avoidance of responsibility.

There may be other factors, but the most important thing is that over time Gentile society forgot the unity of the divine.

As you said, the 7 Noachic Laws applied (and btw STILL apply) to all man kind until Torah was specifically given to Jews.

Yes, it still applies, but so does the ruling on kidnapped Jews.

I'm very unhappy to hear that Jewish schools in Chicago are very expensive...

Your not the only one, and it's not just Chicago, it's (as far as I know) America as a whole.

You really shocked me!
So for you (and your parents) there's no difference - ANY religion fits???

Of course there is a difference! If monetary issues did not play a factor, that I would be at a Jewish school. However, given the situation, which would you chose, a secular school with no religious moral basis (atheists, don't get me wrong, I don't believe that morals require religion, but I do believe it helps, especially in a school setting) or a school with deep religious morality that values minds who are able to understand religion, and who happen to also offer the best education available in your metropolitan area?

NO MORE COMMENTS as you asked - but PLEEEEASE think for yourself.

I do think for myself, if I didn't and believed whatever my family told to believe I would either a) by a hardline Reform or b) be questioning G-d's existence due to the Shoah, neither of which is true for myself. Also, thankyou.

Yeah, those Reform "temples" sound really weird.

It has to do with the (controversial) Reform Theology that the Temple will not be rebuilt with the coming of the Meshiach because at this point in time the temple has become unnecessary since every Jewish congregation is like the temple, every person a priest. I don't agree with this theology (as many Reform Jews don't) but I do see its legitamacy, even if I don't like that Reform Jews often call synagogue "temple."

 

[Israelite9191]

So you're saying that , in essence , you can kill a non-Jew for disagreeing with your religious views ?

Please read my replies and our debate. Also, he did not see non-Jews, only non-monotheists (I still disagree with that). Finally, could you provide us with the details of the "killing of the priests of Ba'al" that you refer to? Personally, I don't seem able to recolect this particular occurence.

 

[Thequeenisgay]

i think its to do with eliyahu hanovi winning a debate against the priest and orderd them killed not 100% sure dont know where it comes from

 

[Sidhe]

Exactly. Far too often people argue about whether we should blame the Romans, or the Jews more; when hating large groups of people for the actions of a few are ridiculous. I still can't understand the logic behind hating the Jewish people over supposedly collectively killing Jesus - when Jesus himself was Jewish!

I quite agree, if you really want to blame anyone, then just say it is was the act of a society of Jews and Christians and Romans et al that lead to Jesus' death and leave it at that, let others bicker it's senseless for this reason:-

When Christ forgave mankind, everyone who believes should have followed suit, or we should have if we actually listened, surely persecuting any group in the name of religion is superceded by being a Christian, acts to the contrary are in direct defiance of the trinity's own words IMO, if ever there was anything more specific in the bible than 'forgive them father for they know not what they do' then I haven't seen it?

 

[Israelite9191]

^^^
How Christianity should be.

 

[Elrohir]

i think that ANY religion that ROBS people of thier FREEWILL is VILE.
some might consider both the Orthodox Jews AND Catholics to be WITHOUT FREEWILL.
they lives governed by politically motivated leaders, and the finances the people can generate to support thier overly large beurocracies and expensive lifestyles.

but im starting to bob my very ugly, very bigoted, head here, so ill just leave it here.
lets just say that I think ALL religions have, by default thier share of corrupt officials that in turn make the entire crowd look bad.

i have had quite a few run ins with hassidic jews, whom i have been taught to dispise, and have learnt different.
most are common people, with everyday worries, loves and hates.
its just that we have differnet priorities.

Religion can't rob anyone of their free will. Fanaticism can, and that comes in every religion, and none.

I quite agree, if you really want to blame anyone, then just say it is was the act of a society of Jews and Christians and Romans et al that lead to Jesus' death and leave it at that, let others bicker it's senseless for this reason:-

When Christ forgave mankind, everyone who believes should have followed suit, or we should have if we actually listened, surely persecuting any group in the name of religion is superceded by being a Christian, acts to the contrary are in direct defiance of the trinity's own words IMO, if ever there was anything more specific in the bible than 'forgive them father for they know not what they do' then I haven't seen it?

Yep. To be fair though, during the Middle Ages at least, the common people didn't have access to the Scriptures. They just believed what the priests told them, and if the priests told them Jews killed Jesus, they believed it. And, of course, the priests believed it because they were taught it, and so forth. I imagine the whole thing originally started because of some bunch of racists (Or several groups) who hated Jews, and just wanted an excuse to stir up a riot.

 

[soul_warrior]

soul_warrior
So you "were taught" - where was YOUR free will then?
And don't mix free will and so-called "freedom" meaning frivolty.

yes.
i was taught.
my free will comes into play when i decide to study for myself, out of my own FREEWILL.
i have developed my own views over time, and after many years of living and thinking about what i believe.
we are all influenced by what our parents teach us, arent we?
its the free ones that can claim to have risen above that and not remain locked in the dogma of the parents.
in that i do NOT mean to break from the faith or whatever, but to have independant views regarding OTHER people.

like i said, these days i DO NOT hate ANY religion.
its just my belief that religion is corrupt.

further on that later as boss is evil-eyeing me