Questions about Judaism

[civ2]

aneeshm
"You shall have no other gods. I'm God your God."

Winterfell
Would you mind telling what is exactly your view???
I'd like to understand you more.

 

[aneeshm]

Yes, it has some very wise ideas in it, and is very beatiful and appreciated by me - but so are the buddhist vedas, the christian new testament, Lau Tzu's Taoism and so forth.

Small correction - the Vedas are the Hindu scriptures . The Buddhists have the Pali Canon .

 

[aneeshm]

aneeshm
"You shall have no other gods. I'm God your God."

I do not understand this part . You think there is only one God , but does that make it justified to kill other people who think there are others ? Specially when you have been told not to murder ? Or do the protection of the commandments apply only to Jews ?

 

[civ2]

aneeshm
I mean that the commandment of "having One God" is higher in order to "you shall not murder".
Another such eample:
It's forbidden to desacrate Shabbath if you were told so by your parents BECAUSE:
1. Shabbath is the fourth commandment and parents is the fifth.
2. Both you and your parents are "overrun" by God concerning Shabbath.

 

[soul_warrior]

jesus (if he existed. and i believe someone like him DID exist) is considered a Jew.
he lived as a jew.
he died as a jew.
what he was is a VERY FANATIC FUNDAMENTALIST jew.

he went out and preached against what he considered wrongdoings by the jewish priests.
you could say he was the jewish equivilent of the christian reformationists, going out agaist the evils of the established church, seeking new morals while going back to the "original orthodox" rules of faith.

he was a popular preacher, but was seen as a threat to old orthodox jewery.
as such they did what they could tto get rid of this unstabilizing factor.

THE POPE HAS DECREED (in 1972? cant recall, but lets say it was the prior pope, a fact of which im SURE about) THAT THE JEWS DID NOT KILL nor were they responsible for the death of christ.

what jesus did, and later his followers, was incorperate idoltry into jewdaism.

why was that done?

long story, but in short:
the roman empire was on the verge of dying.
it had out grown its sustainable size, and due to its multi god system had NO unifing glue that could hold the empire together.
add to that the constant military stress, the raging corruption and the barbarians that ransacked the roman borders, and you get a volatile population.
the Christian church, while under harrasment by the officials of the roman empire, did manage to flourish, due to its promise of heaven, and generic good morals. add to that a faith that BRINGS IN YOUR OLDER, MORE FAMILIAR GODS, and you have an easy faith to follow.
the CHURCH did one other VITAL thing!
they had a FUNCTIONING ADMINISTRATIVE network.
they had a head of state (chief bishop), county heads (bishops) and local heads (parish priests)
that was in CONTRAST to the romans, who couldnt govern.

take a 300 year break, and what you have is a reeking corpse of the roman empire and a fully established, WORKING, beurocracy.

what constantine found there was EXACTLY what he needed, and thus he adopted christanity, and the rest as they say, is history.

 

[civ2]

Might have been something like that.

 

[greekguy]

aneeshm
I mean that the commandment of "having One God" is higher in order to "you shall not murder".
Another such eample:
It's forbidden to desacrate Shabbath if you were told so by your parents BECAUSE:
1. Shabbath is the fourth commandment and parents is the fifth.
2. Both you and your parents are "overrun" by God concerning Shabbath.

i've never heard of that before. from what i've learned, all the commandments are eqaul, and you're supposed to follow all of them as best you can.

 

[Elrohir]

jesus (if he existed. and i believe someone like him DID exist) is considered a Jew.
he lived as a jew.
he died as a jew.
what he was is a VERY FANATIC FUNDAMENTALIST jew.

He was definitely a Jew, and if by "Fundamentalist" you mean someone who took God's Word seriously, then sure, he was. Fanatic depends upon your point of view; the traditional Jewish priesthood would have thought so; I certainly would. I would be careful using such labels, though, if I were you.

what jesus did, and later his followers, was incorperate idoltry into jewdaism.

why was that done?

Specifics?

long story, but in short:
the roman empire was on the verge of dying.
it had out grown its sustainable size, and due to its multi god system had NO unifing glue that could hold the empire together.
add to that the constant military stress, the raging corruption and the barbarians that ransacked the roman borders, and you get a volatile population.
the Christian church, while under harrasment by the officials of the roman empire, did manage to flourish, due to its promise of heaven, and generic good morals. add to that a faith that BRINGS IN YOUR OLDER, MORE FAMILIAR GODS, and you have an easy faith to follow.
the CHURCH did one other VITAL thing!
they had a FUNCTIONING ADMINISTRATIVE network.
they had a head of state (chief bishop), county heads (bishops) and local heads (parish priests)
that was in CONTRAST to the romans, who couldnt govern.

take a 300 year break, and what you have is a reeking corpse of the roman empire and a fully established, WORKING, beurocracy.

what constantine found there was EXACTLY what he needed, and thus he adopted christanity, and the rest as they say, is history.

First, the Romans could indeed govern. Anyone who knows anything about that general period of history could tell you that the Romans did a magnificent job of conquering, and governing many various people's and nations. The became corrupt in the latter portion of their empire's time (Because of the breakdown of the paterfamilias, and the strict morals that were enforced with it) but in general, the Romans were very good, if harsh, rulers. (By good I mean efficient, not good as in necessarily moral, or kind)

Second, it's pure speculation to say Constantine didn't choose to follow Christianity out of personal faith. How can you say that he did not? Were you there? Can anyone but God know a mans heart? That the adoption of Christianity as the state religion (Even if it was given only lip service my most of the population) helped prop up the Roman empire is a given; but that does not mean it was the only, or even main consideration behind Constantine's belief. Don't make assumptions for which you do not have the data to support.

And by the way, I think you're giving the Church too much credit for it's power. It had a good deal of power, and governing authority over religion, and many aspects of life. But it hardly became the central bureacracy of the Roman Empire, or took over for the civil authorities. Perhaps that wasn't what you intended to imply, but that's what it sounded like.


Anyone, back on topic: Civ2, I've heard about some very bizarre groups of Jewish fundamentalists. (There are bizarre people in every religion) Namely, that one group makes all the men wear beards, the women long dresses, and they kill chickens and swing them around, splattering their family with blood, in lieu of temple offerings? It sounds pretty absurd, but I was wondering if you'd ever heard anything about that, or if it was just rumor.

 

[bhsup]

3. But according the new testemant, E.g. "Passion of Christ" the Jews are the one responsible but not the Roman, they are merely the one carrying it out.

I am not Jewish and have no wish to take over this thread where questions about Judaism are answers, but as a protestant Christian I would like to address this point.

"The Jews" were no more responsible for the death of Christ than "The Romans" were. Specific individuals who happened to be Jewish were responsible for bringing him before Pilate, who happened to be Roman. There were Jews who didn't want it to happen, and Romans as well that didn't want to get involved. To collectively lay the responsibility for Christ's crucifixation at the feet of "The Jews" or any other ethnic group of people is beyond ludicrous. Those responsible are long, LONG dead.

 

[Warman17]

Anyone, back on topic: Civ2, I've heard about some very bizarre groups of Jewish fundamentalists. (There are bizarre people in every religion) Namely, that one group makes all the men wear beards, the women long dresses, and they kill chickens and swing them around, splattering their family with blood, in lieu of temple offerings? It sounds pretty absurd, but I was wondering if you'd ever heard anything about that, or if it was just rumor.

I'll pick this one up.

I've never heard of such a group. Hasidic Jews however are the ultra-orthadox when it comes to Judaism. They where their own special clothes thats all black with the funny hats and long beards and payot (thats the curly sideburns). They're about as fundamental as Jews get. (And they don't sacrafice chickens or anything of that sort to answer your question.)


Also remember when asking opinion questions you'll be receiving an individual answer. Just as not every Christian or Atheist can agree on every matter, neither can Jews.

 

[civ2]

Hi!
I'm glad this topic already survived for 3 days.

greekguy
All commandments are equal in importance of basic fulfilment but since you can't do two different things at a time - you must do one first and second next.
So there is a "hierarchy" of "what to do first".
Therefore you'll have a strict "order" of commandments though you still have to fulfil ALL of them.
Most commandments are also "overrun" by a threat to life:
You MUST desacrate Shabbath if it's needed to save a LIFE!
"Desacrate one Shabbath so that he'll live and fulfil many of them."

Elrohir and Warman17
Speaking about "children sacrifices" - only Nazis did this.
Speaking about beards and "peyot" and special clothes:
Not all Chassidic Jews wear black clothes - though I think most of them.
That's not the point.
Long dresses are worn due to "modesty" - a very "strange" (for nowadays non-Jews - and strange meaning not bizzare but outside) "fashion".
Women and girls are not supposed to show their "naked" body - not to bring "bad thoughts" onto men.
(Which is way understandable - and opposite to nowadays "culture" - or rather lack of it. )
Concerning beards and peyot - it's forbidden to shave off the beard entirely - I myself don't find this idea bizzare.

 

[Israelite9191]

I had a thread that was basically the same a while back modelled off the Mormonism thread. I will try to find it and put a link in. Glad there's another Jew around the forums, this (CFC) seems to be about the only place where Jews aren't over-represented . Now, to go back and read the previous pages and see if I can have some input.

EDIT: My credentials/background in religion: Born and raised by a very devout Ashkenazi (North and East European) Jewish family in the Reform (immediate family) and Conservative (extended family, begining with Grandparents) traditions. I belong to a Conservative congregation as my main synagogue though occassionally attend Shabbos services at a loosely Reform synagogue (they define themselves as a "free synagogue" meaning they accept all traditions in Judaism and there services do not strictly fit with Reform or any other theology, yes, there is more of a difference than level of attention to the Law) and Torah discussions at a hardline Reform synagogue with an extremely well known Rabbi and leader of the Reform Movement, Rabbi Shalman. I attended a rather conservative Orthodox Hebrew school that is recognised as one of, if not the, best in Chicagoland and graduated top of my class before having an Orthodox Bar Mitzvah. I am quite well versed (for a lay person who does not have a Theological degree) in other traditions as well as Judaism, particularly Roman Catholic Christianity recieving extensive education ont eh subject from the Society of Jesus (aka Jesuits). I do not claim to be an expert by any means, merely a very well informed lay person with a willingness to do research.

EDIT2: Here is a sight that I often find quite helpful, it includes acess to a live-chat service with many very well accredited rabbis, the sight is called AskMoses.com and is very open to take questions form Jews and Gentiles alike on nearly any topic. If you can't find what you want here, or want some very basic information as can be found in their database, I would definately go to AskMoses.

EDIT3: After reading the first page alone, it is apparent that since my thread died more Jews (Baruch Hashem!) have either a) joined CFC b) started posting in OT or c) something else. More than that, they are very well informed and my opinion will probably not stand up to there's.

EDIT4- Somehow in my long shpeel I forgot to define which tradition I follow. I would say that Conservative and Reform fit me best, but neither entirely. On some issues (for instance, the importance of Kashrut and the concept of the Living Torah) I agree with Reform Judaism, on others (such as the Temple, the coming of the Meshiach, and the direct dictation of the Torah from the word of Hashem to the hand of Moses) I agree with Conservativism and sometimes even Orthodox. All in all I would say I am either a Reform leaning Conservative or a Conservative leaning Reform with a bit of Orthodox theology mixed in.

 

[civ2]

Israelite9191
Shalom!
Since I come from Baltics I (this time it is definitely Baruch Hashem ) have no contacts with neither Reform or Conservative.
I've seen only two "types" of Jews - Orthodox and "Atheists" (speak whatever you want - NO Jew is ever a real Atheist ).
So I'm not supposed to comment the other "types" - though I would if I should.
Only one thing to say though: Torah is both eternal and unchanging - and that doesn't depend on anybody.
And as it's written on the site you mentioned (one of the first links I "accidentaly" went to):
The main point of Judaism is "Naase ve-nishma" - doing goes prior to "understanding".

 

[Israelite9191]

@Silver- There was an extremely long discussion in my old thread on Kashrut. I will either edit the link into here or put it in a new post.

@Civ2-
1. A small matter that I will end up making a whole shpeel on, but at one point you stated that Hinduism is entirely a matter of choice, as opposed to how Judaism is not a matter of choice. This is not true. All Indians are concidered Hindus when they are born, unless they are born into a different religion (Islam, Sikhism, and Jainism being the main alternatives, although Budhism, Judaism [see the Cochin Jews, Ben Menaseh, etc.], Christianity, and tribal religions normally fill this also). The most important facet of this is the debate over wether thos born into other religions still fit in the (officially banned) caste system. Generally the answer is no and is always no with Hinduism based religions (Buddhism, Jainism, etc.) but there are debates over wether or not Muslims, Christians, and others still fit into the caste system (again, the debates are technically illegal in most cases but do find legality when it involves quotas in India for the lower castes). Also, a Hindu who has gone through much religious education and approaches things from a more philosophical point of view will tell you that all humans are Hindus. I forget the exact theology related to it but it has to do with the oneness of the world with Brahman and all beings being united yada yada yada...

2. I have to disagree with your interpretation to Jewish approach to the law and how murder can be qualified. Now, its true that the law states that "I am the Lord thy G-d, and thou shalt have no other G-d before me" and that this is the fundamental basis of Judaism, but there is one flaw to your theology. The Torah is a covenant with the Jews, not with Man as a whole. The Gentiles are not required to follow the Torah by any means. This is a fundamental basic of Judaism, that the Jewish people were chosen from among the nations of the earth to carry the burden, and recieve the blessings, of the covenant with Hashem. For you to deny that the Gentiles are not required to follow the Law would be to deny basic Jewish teaching; to deny this would be to deny the Torah; to deny this would be to deny the covenant; to deny this would be to deny Adoshem.

Now, I could see an argument coming fro the seven laws of Noah, one of which dictates that all humans are to follow Hashem and Hashem alone. However, there is a basic flaw with an argument along these lines. The Seven Laws of Noah are part of the Torah which was delivered to the Jews on Mt. Sinai directly from the word of Hashem to the hand of Moshe, if one follows the traditional doctrine on the subect. Thus, one must accept that the Gentile nations were not knowledgable of the Seven Laws of Moses, for they were revealed at the divine revelation to the Jews with the Jews not having known this before, similar to Avraham recieving revelation telling him of the one-ness of the divine and the society he was in not having known this (in fact, this example lends further credance since if the Gentiles did not know of the one-ness of the divine how could they know that there was a divine law telling them to worship this singular divinity?). If one then follows the rabbinic tradition of the "kidnapped Jews" wherebye a Jew who is raised in a Gentile community is excused from lapses in behavior and from all past behavior where he disobeyed the Torah since he did not know the Law of the Torah, then one must excuse the Gentiles who did not know of the Laws of Noah, or were lead to not believe in the Laws of Noah because of their society, from following the law to follow and believe in Hashem and Hashem alone. Now, as to the specifics of the case of the priests of Ba'al, I must get more information (my major weakpoints for Jewish study would be the lack of an ability to instantaneously know which parsha one is speaking about and be able to quote Torah from the top of my head and a lack of fluency, or even basic proficiency, in Hebrew).

EDIT: I believe in Europe and Israel, particularly in Russia, there is a growing counterpart to the Reform movement called the Progressive movement. Reform Judaism, at its very heart in a very over-simplified manor that will make me look a lot less "religious" than I actually am, was a response to the extreme Orthodoxy of Europe in the 18th and 19th centuries, also to pressures to assimilate into Christian society. Reform Judaism seeks to bring Judaism into the modern world through the development of the tradition just as the tradition has developed within the more conservative forms of Judaism over the centuries, only at a faster pace. It seeks to allow Jews to maintain their religiosity while being a part of the modern world, to be real "modern Jews." the Conservative movement was an American (as far as I know) response to the ultra-Reform Jews that emerged who saught almost complete assimilation. The Conservative movement seeks a happy medium maintaining the traditions of Rabbinic Judaism while moving Judaism into the modern "main-stream" of secular society.

On another note, just incase anyone was thinking otherwise, my avatar has nothing to do with the Meshiach or "Messianic Judaism" (in other words, Christian wana-be's). My avatar has to do with NESing (see the NES sub-forum under Civ3 stories and tales for more info).

On yet another note, as long as all the other Jews have coughed up their roots, location, and age, my family originated in Ukraine, the side I know about coming from outside Odessa. They then migrated to Argentina, became quite wealthy then for some reason, only Hashem knows why, decided to move to a tiny appartment in Chicago. My family has lived in Chicago ever since. Currently, I am fourteen years old and attend St. Ignatius College Prep, a very highly rated Jesuit highschool (see link).

 

[Israelite9191]

Here is the one, the only, Israelite's Judaism Thread!

 

[Leha]

Elrohir and Warman17
Speaking about "children sacrifices" - only Nazis did this.

Hi,

They were talking of chickens, not children.
Just to remove misunderstanding.

 

[Israelite9191]

Its not to hard to understand Civ2's mistake given the incredible vitality of the blodd libel, its an easy mistake to forgive. Also, correctme if I am wrong, but I don't believe Jews ever sacrificed chickens either. I believe doves were the preferred bird for sacrifice in the temple, I can't be sure though.

 

[civ2]

Israelite9191
Wow - such a long post.
So here we go:
1. I know very little about Hindus and I don't care - I won't argue on the things I'm not sure.
2. Torah was given to Jews only - that's true.
(Btw I can't tell text by heart same as you - at least yet. )
And I'm also not sure about which "killing of Baal priests" we are talking.
Could anyone tell the exact events we are speaking about, please.
The main thing is that those idol worshippers were taking Jews from the "right path".
This happened many times before too.
So those guys were a threat to Jews and therefore basically "enemies" (like during war).
And do you say it's forbidden to defend yourself against an obvious enemy?
3. Gentiles DID know about God simply because Adam "the First" did.
Avraham wasn't the only one in his times and before to know about God.
But he was the first to understand that BY HIMSELF and to go SPREAD this idea among idol worshippers who FORGOT about God.
Noah lived much before Avraham but he definitely knew about God and his sons also did.
(They all went into the Ark during the Flood - and who do you think commanded them to do it?)
Also the 7 "Noachic Laws" were given to... Noah and not to Moses.
Jews were obligated to fulfil those until they received their own "Code of Laws" - the Torah.
It's also written that Avraham and other Patriarchs DID fulfil the entire Torah - the novelty of Sinai was not much the text or the contents - but rather another thing:
Before that there were two "realms" - spiritual and material - and they couldn't change each other.
For example, for Jaakov the commandment of Tfillin was fulfilled by... simple sticks or something like that.
He took a stick, went to the fields, prayed there and then THREW those sticks away as unneeded.
Those sticks didn't aqcuire holiness after the prayer - they remained simple sticks.
Nowadays, whenever a cows MATERIAL skin is transformed into a unit of Tfillin and is used according to the commandment - this material skin becomes holy!
It aqcuires spiritual holiness which was imposible before Sinai.
That's basically the only novelty made by the "giving of Torah".
(I do think some things were NOVEL too - but the key point is the intermingling spirituality and materiality.)
4. Aren't there any Jewish schools in Chicago, huh???
5. You're still very young and I hope you'll find the right way by yourself, be-ezrat Hashem.

 

[Israelite9191]

On what Warman said above, it is true that Hassidic Jews are the most "fundamentalist" Jews around, but there are extremist Jews who exist. Most, if not all, of these are the settlers in the Palestinian Territories and their supporters, but not all of the settlers and the supporters. Specifically I speak of the kinds of nutjobs who assinated Yitzchak Rabin and what's-his-face who shot up a Muslim congregation during afternoon prayers. The later kind, who would go to extremes such as violent mass-murder, are extremely rare and may at this point be non-existant. The former, those who resort to assasinations and violent protest against the Israeli government (and others), are also extremely rare, if slightly more present. Neither group is accepted as being good Jews nor the actions as acceptable by any means among the majority of the Jewish community, unlike radical Catholics and other Christians who bomb abortion clinics (etc.), the majority of whom are generally concidered to be too extreme but are not riled against for being bad Christians whose actions are being the acceptable limits of behavior and who are not true Christians (again, this is in general, there are many Christians, particularly Catholics, who do condemn the kind of people I speak of in more of the light extremist Jews are condemed in, though often still no to the same extent).

 

[civ2]

Leha

I'm so used to "specific questions" that I sometimes see "bad" where it's not.

Israelite9191
You're right about chickens.
The only thing is that there is no more any "temple" for about 2000 years.
(It will be rebuilt soon, be-ezrat Hashem. )
Jewish Sinagogues aren't "temples" they're just prayer houses.
Difference - it's forbidden to sacrifice outside the Temple.
Nowadays (and until Moshiach comes and rebuilds the Temple) the prayer is the equivalent and substitute for those sacrifices.