[BTS] Ramses Immortal Fractal: Bad Lands

[Gwaja]

Okay... so enough with Deity. I am rusty and I needed a more relaxing game. So I rolled another game, and... as the title suggests... this wasn't my plan!

Settings:
Fractal
One Extra AI on Standard Size Map
No Huts/Events/Tech Brokering (Yes, I hate Tech Brokering)
Choose Religion (Boring to see Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism being always the dominant ones)
Leader is Ramses

Starting Position:

Spoiler :

Played 82 turns to 825 BC:

Spoiler :

Initial goal was actually to try to utilize settled Great Priests and make an awesome city combined with wonders that gives bonuses to settled priests and also the obelisk that lets us turn 2 priests early.

Exploring the land, it became obvious that we are stuck on our own little subcontinent with suboptimal land tiles. Oh and other than that initial crab that is out of reach in the capital and the triple fish to the east island, there seem to be no other seafood along the coast on this subcontinent! Quite depressing really, as I am sure AI will have much better land than mine. I thought I was screwed with complete isolation, but Vicky showed up from the eastern shore, and Lincoln showed up from the western shores, so I had a sigh of relief.

I saw this island to the east of the capital with fish, and I'd say that is like the only place that looks good. Actually this site looked too good. I gambled that maybe there might be small chain of islands I could settle instead of this boring land on my subcontinent.

Being industrious and all, and with the initial goal in mind, I went for the Stonehenge, got it in 2280 BC, then went for Sailing and the Great Lighthouse (completed in 1240 BC) in the hopes of seaward expansion. However, the only place that I could realistically settle overseas is that small island off the eastern coast of the capital with 3 fish that all fit in the BFC. Vicky managed to settle the empty lands that I thought I may want to try to settle. Not a surprise seeing as she is Imperialistic and all.

Since my land sucked and the hopes of peaceful seaward expansion kinda down the drain, I shot for the Pyramids. At this turnset, I got Math in 900 BC with pre-chopped forests with roads all along the capital, in anticipation to squeeze as many hammers as possible, along with a 2-pop whip of a Library.

I popped a Great Priest in 875 BC and as planned, settled him in the capital.

Other than the Pyramids that I am about to complete next turn, the only other wonder built is the Great Wall. I am sure the Oracle will be finished by someone fairly soon.

Yeah... this land kinda sucks.

That triple fish island is the only good thing that came out of seaward exploration. I was... maybe hoping for other chain of islands or larger breathing space in Vicky's continent, but it doesn't seem that would be the case. Still, I think I could still make good use of the Great Lighthouse.... hopefully?

Yeah... this capital has the early wonders, about to get its 3rd, but not that great of a capital.

Vicky has Alpha, but doesn't have Math yet. Perhaps I could trade for Alpha with a little bit of beakers spent into it, and see what Lincoln has to offer. I will also have to explore on the seas to the west to find Lincoln and see if there are any barbarian cities on the coast that may be blocking trade routes.

So yeah... give this map a try. It should nice and relaxing, with some barbarians mixed in. ^_^

 

[sampsa]

thoughts

Spoiler :

I don't value wonders very high and I think your position is rather grim, due to having only 3 tiny cities at this date. Map is great for GLH, but I think Mids is a mistake. Too expensive, delays settlers and map doesn't have enough for it to shine. I also think Stonehenge is bad as always and the settled prophet can be more of a strain, because it delays stronger s.

 

[Fippy]

Playing for fun (with wonders) isn't the worst decision
Triple fish will be great with Pyras + Caste + Spi (CoL should be very high on your research list now).

Imo this land is okay. Sheep + Deer + some green river also makes a very good Rep scientists city.
Crab filler is close and needs no border pop.
Thebes can get 2 green farms (with silk too).

First i would prolly try to get pigs + clam on Vicky's continent.
Galley already there, so a quick settler + war chariot.
Trade some resis with her for diplo. Can also gift silver for quiet some time after switching into Rep.

 

[sampsa]

My non-fun interpretation to T82

Spoiler :

Got GLH, but been rather slow with expansion. 2 more settlers nearly done though. Was massively unlucky with barbs, losing two early fights at +96%, which partly explains the weak scouting and fog busting. Stupidly started with a library in Alexandria, caste is in soon so granary+lighthouse was probably better by a lot. Trying to get a GS for philo bulb, but I don't think a GM is a disaster anyway. To me these beat a settled prophet by a thousand miles.

 

[soundjata]

Man Sampsa does love his cottages don't he?

Spoiler :

why you no calendar

 

[sampsa]

Man Sampsa does love his cottages don't he?

Yes, cottages are great "default tiles", because they are -neutral and they improve to good tiles over time. Maybe it's time for you to let go of something someone said 10 years ago?

why you no calendar

Crap tech on a crap path. Even on immortal you can usually just trade for it later, unless you want MoM.

 

[Gwaja]

@sampsa and @BornInCantaloup

Nice plays as always. ^_^ Very different approach than mine. And with careful and detailed planning which, due to my wicked personality, I am lacking almost all the time. ^_^
I am approaching it like the old Roleplaying series that used to be hosted by @madscientist.
Settled priests are really underappreciated. I understand the talks about the most optimal ways, the ones that are claimed to be tried and tested and even "proven." For me, this usually results in same-ish type of play no matter what leader/civ I play as.

Spoiler :

Not like this land is screaming for quick early expansion. And no neighbors for contest of land. Stonehenge means semi-creative and easy turning of citizens into priests. Right... the first couple of specialists that I ran in ANY city were all priests. Angkor Wat means 5 priests in a city. ^_^ And I settled all of them. Pyramids a waste? Not for me. Served me too well, though not as great as the Great Lighthouse. Probably not the most optimal way, but still created a very winnable game. Thinking about not ever waging war, using only the settled lands, and going all the way to space vs AI and see how this somehow subpar subcontinent of ours can sustain us to the Modern Age.

Quick note on stone: Too many barbarians in my game. I couldn't quite settle there reliably... this game was strange in that the whole landmass, even the ones not occupied by me, seemed to have had some serious barbarian issues. I thought I didn't turn on raging barbarians.. what gives!?! Oh well... I would never even entertain the idea of building the Pyramids without stone unless Industrious. Silly gamble maybe, but did pay off. Looked at land and screamed "this land is one giant landfill full of garbage and trash!"

This is just too much fun.

Playing as super pacifist means lots of quick turns, which, for me, leads to sloppy play. I could learn a lot from all of you that play this game with so much detail and lots of careful planning.

 

[Gwaja]

Playing for fun (with wonders) isn't the worst decision
Triple fish will be great with Pyras + Caste + Spi (CoL should be very high on your research list now).

Imo this land is okay. Sheep + Deer + some green river also makes a very good Rep scientists city.
Crab filler is close and needs no border pop.
Thebes can get 2 green farms (with silk too).

First i would prolly try to get pigs + clam on Vicky's continent.
Galley already there, so a quick settler + war chariot.
Trade some resis with her for diplo. Can also gift silver for quiet some time after switching into Rep.

Exactly my thoughts. Evil minds think alike. ^_^ I did use the sheep+deer site as secondary GP farm city. Turned out okay.
Unfortunately, Vicky was quick to fill her island, and it wasn't even that big and she is the most isolated AI in the game.

 

[Henrik75]

Turn 91 / 600BC
Recording my playthrough to post on YT too.

Spoiler :

Pyramids without stone in addition to doing GLH is not very practical unless you want to cripple your expansion
We can make use of the rivers to get a few farms and and cottages up in the inland cities after civil service. Grassland river tiles is still ok for a city without food resources.
Tried to settle my early cities along coast to benefit from GLH. Probably not going to bother settling the deer unless a forest grows on it.

I went early CoL going to use caste system to generate some GPP and aim to lib astronomy. Thinking about Monarchy -> Math -> CS -> metal casting -> Calendar -> Optics -> Education -> Lib
Hoping Vicky's religion will spread and I can bulb philosophy and use pacifism to pump dudes.

 

[Henrik75]

@Gwaja

My thoughts on what you posted

Spoiler :

The land is mediocre but not terrible. It's workable, and I will try my best to show how.
You built way too many mines, and aren't working even half of them. I don't even bother with plains mines as you can see because its still just faster to whip granary/lighthouses than use the mines, cottages / farms for Elephantine were a much higher priority for me with worker turns. The capital is very low food so you will never be able to work plains mines as well as a plains silver and grassland mines. I even farmed a tile to compensate a bit.
Stonehenge not needed, I build a settler super early instead and got Memphis rolling which then snowballed to produce settlers/workers itself to continue development while i built great lighthouse. Only takes a couple turns to whip or chop monuments where needed rather than cripple early expansion or lose failgold on a bad wonder that will polute your GPP.
3 cities by 800BC Yeah it shows you really crippled your expansion for all these wonders; you won't even be able to use the pyramids because you will need all the hammers/whips you can get to pump out settlers to catch up in expansion now. For the record I always try to aim for 5 cities by 1000BC, 4 at minimum.
Anyway, just my constructive feedback, good job getting the wonders I don't think it will lose you the game, and it will help catch you up later, but I think settling more cities is more optimal so you can develop the land (which really needs developing to be decent).

 

[Gwaja]

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

Sacrificing expansion meant less things for workers to do, other than mad chopping out the Pyramids, which translated into those mines you mention. My humble opinion is that Pyramids wasn't a bad play, but my execution of it could have been a lot better. Stonehenge though, that was probably an overkill. I almost never build that in my games; maybe for fail gold on some occasion. I actually had my mind dead set on building it from the very start as a matter of fact, as an experiment of sort. I wasn't concerned about GPP pollution, because I wasn't aiming for Great Scientists specifically. I was wanting for Great Priests anyway, and having the free obelisks means I could easily produce them and reliably settle them. That was the sort of "rule" I placed for the game. Not the most optimal way maybe, but I wasn't aiming for that anyway.

I am looking forward to your YT upload. You play at just the right speed and explain things very thoroughly in an easy-to-understand manner. I really appreciate your accepting my request to host this map on your YT channel, as well as your very constructive feedback.

@BornInCantaloup

@TheMeInTeam aka Phil used to be very active, as you know, and I also enjoyed his YT content. He even had a posting explaining how to play this game faster. ^_^ Yeah, I also like to play at a brisk pace, sometimes to my detriment though.

Spoiler :

I am not too set on needing to have certain number of cities by a certain date, but you are correct that I most likely may have missed out on an extra settler. I still believe that Pyramids wasn't a bad play, but I also agree with your assessment that combining that with Stonehenge was probably an overkill. Like I mentioned to @Henrik75, I almost never build that, but this time I was trying something funky with it.

I am wanting to try that Theology bulb, which I did not execute in this attempt. ^_^

Stonehenge not getting built by 2000 BC on Immortal is pretty rare, isn't it? In my game, The Great Wall got built around 2200 BC, I think.

Yeah... I added an extra AI, so naturally you would think faster wonder dates and LESS barbarians. In my game, the barbarians were roaming around everywhere in my subcontinent, as well as the western landmass where the AI civs were also seeming to struggle with them. Absolutely true about that Heroic Epic unlock possibilities without war thanks to barbarians. I actually have a goal set to make a Woodsman 3 warrior that I could, eventually make into a Super Medic.

 

[Gwaja]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Ouch on that marble...

I also had my eyes initially set on Vicky's land, but by the time I thought I was ready to settle towards there, it was too late. No worries though, her land isn't all that great anyway.

Nice expansion at work there! And yep... tech brokering off should make the game easier in many ways.

 

[Henrik75]

Agreed Pyramids is not bad choice, and maybe more practical with better execution. Could consider settling a city on the stone to help - pay for itself with GLH, and immediately connect the stone with 0 worker turns for capital to construct it quickly.

Spoiler :

I'm playing it as an isolated no tech trade kinda,
I went for early currency & civil service bee line. Managed to get 25AD Civil service with nearly no useful trades from these idiots
Next plan is to lib astronomy, we hard tech our way to optics at 475AD now I'm working towards a 1000AD orso lib which should be safe on immortal.
Will take advantage of the stone to build oxford university too. Capital is not that great for research but with academy, GLH and harbor etc it should still be quite decent.
About to do some lighthouse + lake magic in the tundra here to use the deer. You can see how Elephantine and Heliopos have developed really well now, I even got markets in them!

Turn 146 / 720AD

Yep dont think anyone is going to get lib.
I'm aware you probably don't need astronomy to get good trade routes, but it keeps the option of declaring on augustus open without losing all my trades, and if i'm going to overseas assault, I HATE doing it with galleys, so galleons + frigates would be really nice. Also, Observatories don't hurt to snowball even more research. Also, it's just simply a strong pick because it's so expensive.

I'd like to capitulate Augustus then just go for a space win, would be fun and different and see how far we can go with this mediocre land.

 

[Henrik75]

How to make rubbish cities pay for themselves

Spoiler :

17 beakers and 6gpt! at the cost of 3gpt. Profit! courthouse was chopped then slowbuilt in 10 turns, seemed worth it.

 

[Gwaja]

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

You called it. Building a quarry to set up the stone/marble just takes too long and many times, it is wise to look to build a city on top of those resources to save major number of turns. In this case, with Great Lighthouse and Code of Laws, even that hopelessly dismal looking city with no food and dry land can pay for itself and more by providing that critical resource bonus. Stone stays relevant for longer than marble, and Oxford is obviously a no brainer by that point.

Also a good call on Astro. Too bad it obsoletes a lot of old wonders, but getting it for free as a lib tech is a smart choice, as you mentioned, due to the fact that it simply is the most realistic tech that is most expensive in beaker cost. If you are looking to attack Augustus, then even more so to guarantee overseas trade route. In my game, Lincoln managed to capture a barbarian city to Augustus' southwest and I managed to get a foothold in the southeast, so the trade routes will still remain open as long as barbarians are out of the way. Still, limited carrying capacity of galleys make overseas invasion so annoying.

On AI being a bunch of cavemen: Same story with me as well. No tech brokering means they can't just be trading techs with each other like crazy as they happen in normal games. I am not sure if this type of map script or other factors also are affecting the AI's slow tech pace.

I like how you call the AI a bunch of "idiots." I think Lain used to say the same also. Gives me giggles every time I hear you say it. ^_^

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Nice job managing to get in contact with all AI on this map. Very doable with some persistent sea exploration, and earlier the better. I managed to circumnavigate the globe just by using a couple of fishing boats.

Nice trade with Burger King too. And the AI don't look all that scary with the tech pace in your game also. No tech brokering really does come into play, I think.

On overlap: I have a tendency to prefer settling my cities closer together with overlap. I like sharing tiles to grow cottages to maturity, as well as sharing food obviously. But this map is a bad candidate for that. I also didn't settle that crab site until much later.

 

[Henrik75]

Turn 192/1320AD

Spoiler :

Can do a more detailed writeup tomorrow
After Libbing astro successfully I went for democracy to build statue of liberty, it's really an awesome wonder if you plan to play late game. With Industrious and Copper and Bureaucracy bonus, it wasn't too awful to build. My research is double Augustus and he's the only threat. He's skipped Education to bee line early Rifling, so I will wait until Infantry/Artillery to smash him because he won't be at infantry any time soon for sure by skipping education.
Every city has been beautifully developed - I really love these kinda games I can sit back and build! We have observatories, markets, grocers, banks, harbors, courthouses in almost every major city (the size 10+ ones) Once I hit replaceable parts & chemistry I swapped out of whipping and will remain in Caste for the rest of the game.
Plan is now to go to Communism and get state property then build more workshops, and build Kremlin and try rush buying an army for the first time ever. Should be pretty effective since we have banks markets and grocers everywhere, already at +600gpt with slider at 0%. For some reason all these idiots decided to go physics before education.
Look at the BPT! without even in golden age or running research. Having lots of fun thank you Leaving it here and heading to bed.

 

[soundjata]

Turn 192/1320AD

Spoiler :

Plan is now to go to Communism and get state property then build more workshops, and build Kremlin and try rush buying an army for the first time ever. Should be pretty effective since we have banks markets and grocers everywhere, already at +600gpt with slider at 0%.

Kremlin is good because RB cost goes from 3X to 2X !

In the context of rushbuying an army, you might want to specialize your cities a little bit:
- Hammer cities partially build stuff (turn one) and complete it with rushbuy (turn two)
- Other cities focus on wealth to sustain the rushbuy every other turn...

Also drydocks might be worth a consideration for cities that are going to focus on navy.

 

[sampsa]

I am approaching it like the old Roleplaying series that used to be hosted by @madscientist.
Settled priests are really underappreciated. I understand the talks about the most optimal ways, the ones that are claimed to be tried and tested and even "proven." For me, this usually results in same-ish type of play no matter what leader/civ I play as.

If this roleplaying means that you don't care whether a play is good or not, then feel free to ignore my responses. I don't think strong play leads to same kind of play despite leader/civ, but the difference might be smaller than you'd like. But just for example, Lain's games are not always the same and there is zero roleplaying.

On settled prophets I already voiced my opinion - they are horrible. It's not that +5+2(+3 from rep) is nothing, it's that other ways to use are much stronger. If we are being generous, settling is worth ~13 per turn. Philo bulb is ~1300. There is just no way the former can compete, since latter also unlocks a very powerful civic. After access to pacifism, I'd value first golden age at ~5000, so settling loses even worse. Settling can be competitive only if you get 1st very early and will get a few more rather quickly (for philo bulb, GA starter and possibly academy), which practically means you are playing a PHI leader.

Not like this land is screaming for quick early expansion. And no neighbors for contest of land. Stonehenge means semi-creative and easy turning of citizens into priests. Right... the first couple of specialists that I ran in ANY city were all priests. Angkor Wat means 5 priests in a city. ^_^ And I settled all of them. Pyramids a waste? Not for me. Served me too well, though not as great as the Great Lighthouse. Probably not the most optimal way, but still created a very winnable game

The sheep-spot is very good, as is the crabs spot. If you want to improve your game, settle such spots as fast as you can. There is no excuse to not have them settled by T80. Stonehenge doesn't mean semi-creative to me, it means delaying expansion. Mids is a great wonder, that's not the issue. The issue is that you sacrifice expansion. It's much better to set up at least 4 cities very quickly, as they will win you . Of course many positions are winnable, again that is not the issue. The issue is that you are making it harder.

 

[Gwaja]

Since no spoilers...

Maybe I should have made things clearer. Never did I claim that my turnsets were optimal. I had specific things I wanted to do, and I did just that, not caring what is optimal or good or better or whatever term you want to throw at. I meant to just share this "map" but ended up putting my turnset, but did not specify that I was doing some things on purpose.

I am not here to argue that settled Great Priests are good or bad. Just in THIS game, I wanted to run early priests using obelisks, settle all of them, and play around with it. Since I already had set out what I wanted to, I did go overboard, and to your eyes, maybe it looked bad, but for me, no big deal as the game came out still more than winnable and having fun out of wacky play.

When I said same things on what is considered optimal, I meant how most people treat and think of Great Priests. You yourself claim they are horrible, which most likely means that you will never grow them on purpose. That's what I meant by "same" since I never grew them on purpose either, until THIS game.

Great Lighthouse means you will almost always look to build cities on the coast. But then as @Fippy suggested for a city that claims deer and sheep together, that site can't be coastal, but I settled there anyway, intending to use it as a secondary GP farm. Was that not optimal? Maybe, maybe not. I know that the city turned out okay in my game, so no complaints there.

I know the game well enough to know that indeed I went overboard and sacrificed expansion to set my wacky goal in motion. It is just that building THREE early wonders at the beginning out of the capital from the very start, with the most expensive wonder being built without resource bonus IS indeed going way overboard. Not the most optimal way, and you claim it "crippled" my expansion, but then having those wonders in the long run made it just as easy to recover, so again, no big deal, given the intended purpose and circumstances.

 

[sampsa]

Well, hope you learned a thing or two!

Great Lighthouse means you will almost always look to build cities on the coast. But then as @Fippy suggested, the deer and the sheep site can't be coastal, but I settled there anyway, intending to use it as a secondary GP farm. Was that not optimal? Maybe, maybe not. I know that the city turned out okay in my game, so no complaints there.

I don't think GLH means all your cities should be coastal. Strong sites should be settled as fast as possible, with or without GLH.